116 replies to this topic

[Ferrari2183]

I agree but history will remember these years as being part of a long title draught. I'm not sure it will remember the near championship misses.

I'm sure it will. 

[jey16]

its simple, Alonso wanted to leave and Ferrari went out and got Vettel as a replacement. Pretty good work IMO despite losing Alonso, your gaining a 4xWDC.

 

When Hamilton left McLaren, they replaced him with Perez!

[InvertedLift]

It's exactly the same for the other high quality drivers. 

Disagree. I severely doubt Vettel would have gotten within the same continent as the championship winner in 2010/2012 if he was in the Ferrari instead of the Red Bull.

[jamesm]

Alonso's Ferrari tenure was everything but total failure... Sure there were faster cars around but some of his drives were the stuff of legend. 44 podiums, 11 wins and 2 near championship misses are proof enough.

 

 

True but ultimately its all about championships and despite being godly over his tenure ultimately it must be seen as a failure to win no titles and only 11 races over 5 years. Ferrari badly failed Alonso, and I am glad he left, because it is only chance to win another title.

[garoidb]

I agree but history will remember these years as being part of a long title draught. I'm not sure it will remember the near championship misses.

 

The competitive periods in Ferrari's 21 year WDC drought are rarely mentioned. The fact is that Ferrari were very competitive for periods during that spell. They were WCC winners in 1982 and 1983 as well as 1999, so the WCC gap was 16 years. Furthermore, there were race wins in all but 6 of the 21 years (1980, 1986, 1987, 1991, 1992, 1993). There was a strong WDC challenge from Prost in 1990, Schumacher in 1997 and 1998, Irvine in 1999 and Arnoux was a contender up to the last race in 1983. 

 

So, I think you are right. The 21 years became the headline as if Ferrari had descended into oblivion. They hadn't.

[autosportfan]

Disagree. I severely doubt Vettel would have gotten within the same continent as the championship winner in 2010/2012 if he was in the Ferrari instead of the Red Bull.

And I disagree with your statement. Anyway, let's see how long it takes for ALO to get into trouble with Mac this time. It is usually after 2-3 years by which time he has disrupted the normal team working methods with his shadow organisation.

[Ferrari_F1_fan_2001]

"Internally motivate". That made me giggle... like a teenager at a Justin Biever concert. 

 

It's easy to "motivate" people when the car is good. What Fernando did at Ferrari has more of a merit than what Michael did: Guy went in knowing he didn't have the best car, put his head down and kept on working. The team did not deliver. Yet, he kept on working hard, bringing in points and even wins. That is the heart of a true champion. 

 

So what did Michael do in 1996-1999 when the car was second or third best and he still kept producing the goods?

 

You didn't get all this baggage with Schumacher,

 

Like I said, Alonso is the BEST driver now, and a shoe in on the All Time Great list but his influence and presence can become divisive within the team. Recently he has had more patience - a sign he is maturing as he gets older - but his fidgety nature will always betray him.

[jamesm]

So what did Michael do in 1996-1999 when the car was second or third best and he still kept producing the goods?

 

You didn't get all this baggage with Schumacher,

 

Like I said, Alonso is the BEST driver now, and a shoe in on the All Time Great list but his influence and presence can become divisive within the team. Recently he has had more patience - a sign he is maturing as he gets older - but his fidgety nature will always betray him.

 

What baggage are you talking about exactly? Ron Smedly said recently Alonso is  a team player and not disruptive at all. He stood by the team when they kept delivering him mules for FOUR years, that is amazing team spirt. There is so much nonsense written about Alonso without any basis in fact.

[Ferrari_F1_fan_2001]

Disagree. I severely doubt Vettel would have gotten within the same continent as the championship winner in 2010/2012 if he was in the Ferrari instead of the Red Bull.

 

By the same token, I doubt Alonso or the rest of the challengers would have gotten near Vettel had Vettel enjoyed better reliability.

[bourbon]

True but ultimately its all about championships and despite being godly over his tenure ultimately it must be seen as a failure to win no titles and only 11 races over 5 years. Ferrari badly failed Alonso, and I am glad he left, because it is only chance to win another title.

 

Ferrari provided a car that Alonso was able to compete with during 2 of those years, so I disagree that they failed him over 5 years.  The whole team has to take responsibility.  Now they want to revamp, but for Fernando, time is not on his side - for Ferrari, they need to rebuild their image which took at hit in the last 5 years.

 

I think that is why Ferrari wanted to go with a younger, patient talent - they know it is going to take time to get back to the front.  In Sebastian, they have a young and patient driver that previously participated in a building process - and a great talent to boot. So I think they made the best decision in terms of the reboot they have planned.

Edited by bourbon, 22 November 2014 - 05:13.

[Ikebana]

Ferrari provided a car that Alonso was able to compete with during 2 of those years, so I disagree that they failed him over 5 years.  The whole team has to take responsibility.  Now they want to revamp, but for Fernando, time is not on his side - for Ferrari, they need to rebuild their image which took at hit in the last 5 years.

 

 

Alonso could never compete really as he only got close thanks to bad luck or reliability issues involving Vettel car. Not even with these and Vettel's own mistakes Alonso had a chance really. Perhaps only 1 out of 5 years and still Alonso would have needed a lot of luck. The car wasn't up there able to fight for championships.

 

Anyway, the Ferrari drought started in 2009 actually, when Alonso still wasn't in the team. So it's actually the last 6 years when Ferrari took a hit. That of course unless you believe it was only with Alonso that Ferrari got an image problem of course.

[baddog]

Alonso's Ferrari tenure was everything but total failure... Sure there were faster cars around but some of his drives were the stuff of legend. 44 podiums, 11 wins and 2 near championship misses are proof enough.

 

 

He didnt go there for that. I didnt say HE has failed, he has maybe been the most consistently good driver of the last few years, but the union of him and Ferrari has failed to produce the results.

[bourbon]

Alonso could never compete really as he only got close thanks to bad luck or reliability issues involving Vettel car. Not even with these and Vettel's own mistakes Alonso had a chance really. Perhaps only 1 out of 5 years and still Alonso would have needed a lot of luck. The car wasn't up there able to fight for championships.

 

Anyway, the Ferrari drought started in 2009 actually, when Alonso still wasn't in the team. So it's actually the last 6 years when Ferrari took a hit. That of course unless you believe it was only with Alonso that Ferrari got an image problem of course.

 

Yup, from 2009 they struggled.  But their reputation did not really start to take a hit until 2012, imo.

[praxos]

Ferrari provided a car that Alonso was able to compete with during 2 of those years,.

A car that is able to compete does not mean it was a great car, it just means it was good enough for Alonso to compete only because amazing driving and his rivals screwing up so often. In 2010 his best car, his rival team beat him 15-2 in pole positions which says it all really. And that was the best Ferrari he ever drove. On merit the 2010 Ferrari should have never had a chance.

[kamikaze1]

The only way you can measure what Alonso did in those Ferraris is by (what most anti-Alonsos do every day with Hamilton and 2007) is compare him to how his teammate did in the same car.    Massa..... Kimi.....  They were nowhere most given Sundays when Alonso was on it.  

 

That should quell any inquiry people have.  It's petty to argue that the Ferraris were competitive when world class drivers in the same car couldn't pull off what Alonso did with it.  To see people argue against that -  is as bitter as a divorced lemon.  

[bourbon]

A car that is able to compete does not mean it was a great car, it just means it was good enough for Alonso to compete only because amazing driving and his rivals screwing up so often. In 2010 his best car, his rival team beat him 15-2 in pole positions which says it all really. And that was the best Ferrari he ever drove. On merit the 2010 Ferrari should have never had a chance.

 

That is what I said:

 

bourbon, on 21 Nov 2014 - 21:09, said:

Ferrari provided a car that Alonso was able to compete with during 2 of those years

 

I disagree the 2010 Ferrari should not have had a chance - it was competitive.  There were other considerations beyond qualifying; Alonso's competition included 3 of the best qualifiers on the grid, plus he made several mistakes that season; and unlike his competitors, he got some help from his teammate, who wasn't in the title fight after mid season.  The 2012 started stronger than it finished, but again, it was good enough to compete with the other cars which had their own technical issues.  So in my opinion, Ferrari didn't fail him in those seasons; although I would agree they failed their drivers in the other 3.

 

That said, I do think Alonso made the right choice in leaving. 

Edited by bourbon, 22 November 2014 - 12:08.

[hittheapex]

The only way you can measure what Alonso did in those Ferraris is by (what most anti-Alonsos do every day with Hamilton and 2007) is compare him to how his teammate did in the same car.    Massa..... Kimi.....  They were nowhere most given Sundays when Alonso was on it.  

 

That should quell any inquiry people have.  It's petty to argue that the Ferraris were competitive when world class drivers in the same car couldn't pull off what Alonso did with it.  To see people argue against that -  is as bitter as a divorced lemon.