345 replies to this topic

[Techcheat]

If Rosberg wont deserve the championship if he wins cause of double points then Hamilton too doesnt deserve to be 2008 champion.

 

He won a tainted championship thanks to Alonso's/Renault's controversial win in Singapore and Glock letting Hamilton through in Brazil. So by this logic Massa is a real world champion and Lewis not so.

 

There are so many if and buts. Its always Singapore though that has gifted Lewis the championship. In 2008 thanks to Alonso and Ferrari screwing up pit stop. In 2014 controversial win in Monza and Rosberg car break down in Singapore.

 

In any case it looks like Rosberg is going to have a gearbox failure tomorrow as he missed 2 gears in Qualifying.

 

Having said that Lewis is certainly feeling the pressure. In a way its good that Hamilton can come 2nd and still be champion. As he is geared to win. When he knows he doesnt have to win, he goes against his natural instinct. He can have a conservative start and be a bit too catious. Its just a farce that no other car is in the league to challenge Merc.

Edited by Techcheat, 22 November 2014 - 15:12.

[RealRacing]

OK AD is at the bottom of my list. I'm sure the F1 world is quaking in it's boots.

 

1988. Prost lost to Senna despite scoring more points because of the dropped races rule.

If you think you are powerless, you are...

 

1988. Meh, it seems more legitimate to me as it wasn't done to favour any particular venue, probably due to some "delayed-handshake" with Bernie by the sheiks.

[Clatter]

No, I remember it well, and whilst a bad rule, nothing like this, hey, double points at the past race woooooooo hoooooooooooo.

 

No one likes it, it will not make it into the rules next year and, as I said, if anyone was to benefit from it, it will not go down in the history books as much more than an anomaly.  Look at any books on WDC winners in the future and you can bet your last pound it will be referenced thus - Despite winning more races, dominating his team mate, due to worse reliability and a one season only farcical rule giving double points, Hamilton lost to his less successful team mate.

 

No one will dress it up as nicely as you seem to think.

I personally think that will be the minority view. The majority of people who watch F1 are casual viewers and they won't give a damn, and if it increases the viewing numbers for this race then there is no way it will be dropped. BE wanted a final race showdown and that's what he has got. 

[sennafan24]

If Rosberg wont deserve the championship if he wins cause of double points then Hamilton too doesnt deserve to be 2008 champion.

If we ignore the most wins measure, and other variables.

 

I would suggest that Lewis's deserves it more this year than Nico, for simply performing better overall. I also think Lewis deserved it more than Massa in 2008 for the same reason.

[Clatter]

If you think you are powerless, you are...

 

1988. Meh, it seems more legitimate to me as it wasn't done to favour any particular venue, probably due to some "delayed-handshake" with Bernie by the sheiks.

 

If you think you are powerless, you are...

 

1988. Meh, it seems more legitimate to me as it wasn't done to favour any particular venue, probably due to some "delayed-handshake" with Bernie by the sheiks.

Oh sorry. I thought it was just the "points injustice" you were complaining about. 

[Clatter]

If we ignore the most wins measure, and other variables.

 

I would suggest that Lewis's deserves it more this year than Nico, for simply performing better overall. I also think Lewis deserved it more than Massa in 2008 for the same reason.

But at the end of the season the winner is judged by who scores the most points (given the system in place at that time), nothing else is taken into account.

[bourbon]

Didn't FA make a mistake? In any case, was there any message for him a-la RBR for Vettel in the pit?

 

I don't know if they made a message to Fernando.  I imagine there was - but they are never as over the top as RBR so it would not be as visible.   Anyway Seb was with them 15 years and earned 8 titles with them, so a bit different.

 

As for Qually - Subsequently Vettel said on German TV that they had an issue that resulted in oversteer and they couldn't solve the issue though they tried throughout the entire qually - so P6 was damage limitation.   Alonso said (quoted in Nando/Kimi thread) that he had an engine settings issue during the Q3 session - he didn't mention making any mistakes.

Edited by bourbon, 22 November 2014 - 15:25.

[sennafan24]

But at the end of the season the winner is judged by who scores the most points (given the system in place at that time), nothing else is taken into account.

Not my point.

 

I was simply expressing my opinion on who I think deserves the title more.

 

 

There are so many if and buts. Its always Singapore though that has gifted Lewis the championship. In 2008 thanks to Alonso and Ferrari screwing up pit stop. In 2014 controversial win in Monza and Rosberg car break down in Singapore.

How did Singapore gift Lewis the title this year

 

Nico had more luck elsewhere which cancelled out Lewis's luck at Singapore. I could argue that Hungary and Germany qualifying has gifted Nico a chance to win the title if I used that logic.

Edited by sennafan24, 22 November 2014 - 15:22.

[RealRacing]

I personally think that will be the minority view. The majority of people who watch F1 are casual viewers and they won't give a damn, and if it increases the viewing numbers for this race then there is no way it will be dropped. BE wanted a final race showdown and that's what he has got. 

I'm not sure the majority are casual viewers. It takes a certain level of commitment to watch cars "going round and round" for 2 hours (as casual viewers see F1 in my experience). But if you have something to back this up, I'll agree that making a stupid rule for "stupid" audiences is probably a good commercial move.

[RealRacing]

Oh sorry. I thought it was just the "points injustice" you were complaining about. 

I was complaining about a farcical rule brought on by, probably, less than ethical circumstances as these guys are used to functioning...

[Okyo]

 

Before anything, let me clarify I'm not a fan of either Nico or Lewis. Sure it won't change the artificial official result. But if we disagree with the stupid rule, we can, as fans, let it be known that we don't see it as a legitimate championship result. If you want to be even more proactive you can, by, for example, sabotaging Abu Dhabi in any way you see fit.

Do agree it's a stupid rule and i think it should precisely stay against that - the stupid rule, like we've done so many times. No need to get drivers involved, as they've been just playing by the book and with what they got, acted the way they acted with the current circumstances. If Nico becomes a WDC tomorrow, he should be happy and shouldn't be belittled as he played by the rules, like any other driver in his position, of which he doesn't have absolutely no control. This whole set of proposed views are a lil unfair for Nico's position, as he can't really change anything. Drivers don't have a say in this and that's why they should be kept out of this whole discusion. 

There are a lot of silly rule changes in my view. I hate the DRS addition, the new tech/power unit regulations, but no ones going around saying that Mercede isn't worthy of what they got now. All of the teams had the same circumstances to work with and some benefited from it, others didn't. The same way Nico is benefiting from this rule now, though benefiting is a strong word. As Nico won't probably win it, as Lewis season results are not in vain, as he doesn't need to fight or win against Nico. The good results he got in the past races let him be in this WAY better position than Nico. 

Tomorrow rules are equal and fair to everyone on the grid. Nico is getting the same thing as is Lewis - double points. The rule wasn't added yesterday, so Nico could benefit from it, nor it's  double points for the person in the 2nd place of the WDC. It's a stupid rule - yes, is it unfair and should a drivers WDC be belittled for playing by the rules? No.

[CHIUNDA]

If I were Hamilton I'd rather sit there in second and not get close to anybody all afternoon..

I am sure that is the strategy. Even a monkey knows that is the thing to do. For once I don't believe Lewis when he keeps insisting he will go for racing as usual.

[Mandzipop]

Adam Cooper @adamcooperF1

Big news as VET and RIC are reported to stewards by Jo Bauer for front wing flaps flexing under aero load...

 

[Okyo]

I am sure that is the strategy. Even a monkey knows that is the thing to do. For once I don't believe Lewis when he keeps insisting he will go for racing as usual.

Knowing Lewis' character, i'd guess he might just go for the win. Of course, with measured risk taking at the start. Lewis ain't Lewis if he backs off from a chance of a win 

[HeadFirst]

Sutil's gf has been there at every single race... Wonder what she has to look forward to or smile bout

 

Both she and Adrian are well respected concert pianists, so maybe the less demanding schedule of the WEC (my guess as to where he will land if not F1) will allow them to return to the stage.

[Emilvang]

Hmm, I thought the Williams front wing flexed like crazy under aero load, but didn't notice it on the Red Bull. I wonder how they determine which is and isn't allowed.

[OO7]

 

Adam Cooper @adamcooperF1

Big news as VET and RIC are reported to stewards by Jo Bauer for front wing flaps flexing under aero load...

•  

 

Newey's at it again.

[CHIUNDA]

I personally think that will be the minority view. The majority of people who watch F1 are casual viewers and they won't give a damn, and if it increases the viewing numbers for this race then there is no way it will be dropped. BE wanted a final race showdown and that's what he has got.

You are definitely ignoring the poll on the Lewis vs Nico thread. You are also definitely ignoring the number of first time posters on this forum since Brazil ... and their opinions.

[Goron3]

Newey's at it again.

Oh dear Red Bull. This should be fun.

[Exb]

Adam Cooper @adamcooperF1

Big news as VET and RIC are reported to stewards by Jo Bauer for front wing flaps flexing under aero load...

 

DSQ?

 

Will make the race more entertaining watching them start from the pit-lane which may be needed at this circuit

[Ducks]

Guess they get excluded from qualifying.

[TF110]

Hamilton nice and calm in the post qualifying press conference. He knows all he has to do is bring the car home. The pressure is on Nico to drive his pants off and pray Bottas or Massa have a go at Lewis. All this talk of Hamilton is going to be under huge stress, its actually Nico who has all the worrying to do. We'll see tomorrow!

[HeadFirst]

Knowing Lewis' character, i'd guess he might just go for the win. Of course, with measured risk taking at the start. Lewis ain't Lewis if he backs off from a chance of a win 

 

Of course he will and so he should, being careful is never a safe way to secure a championship. Hanging back to avoid Rosberg puts Lewis into the clutches of Massa and Bottas, who have something to prove and little to lose.

[Lights]

 

Adam Cooper @adamcooperF1

Big news as VET and RIC are reported to stewards by Jo Bauer for front wing flaps flexing under aero load...

 

 

 

It only took them 4 years.

[HeadFirst]

Hamilton nice and calm in the post qualifying press conference. He knows all he has to do is bring the car home. The pressure is on Nico to drive his pants off and pray Bottas or Massa have a go at Lewis. All this talk of Hamilton is going to be under huge stress, its actually Nico who has all the worrying to do. We'll see tomorrow!

 

I disagree (mildly) with that ^. Nico has nothing to worry about. The race situation is out of his control, he has to win. Lewis on the other hand has a choice ..... race for the win and control the race from the front, or try to stay out of trouble. With all the elements seemingly in his favor, Lewis has a lot to lose.

[DanardiF1]

If Rosberg wont deserve the championship if he wins cause of double points then Hamilton too doesnt deserve to be 2008 champion.

 

He won a tainted championship thanks to Alonso's/Renault's controversial win in Singapore and Glock letting Hamilton through in Brazil. So by this logic Massa is a real world champion and Lewis not so.

 

There are so many if and buts. Its always Singapore though that has gifted Lewis the championship. In 2008 thanks to Alonso and Ferrari screwing up pit stop. In 2014 controversial win in Monza and Rosberg car break down in Singapore.

 

In any case it looks like Rosberg is going to have a gearbox failure tomorrow as he missed 2 gears in Qualifying.

 

Having said that Lewis is certainly feeling the pressure. In a way its good that Hamilton can come 2nd and still be champion. As he is geared to win. When he knows he doesnt have to win, he goes against his natural instinct. He can have a conservative start and be a bit too catious. Its just a farce that no other car is in the league to challenge Merc.

 

Not wishing to stir up old issues and this is pretty far OT, but the same logic could be applied to Massa, who benefitted from one of the most controversial steward's decisions in Spa to win a race that he didn't cross the line 1st for.

 

Massa 'won' 6 races that year to Lewis' 5, but give Spa the result that was to nearly everyone 'correct' and it's swapped round and Brazil needn't have mattered.

[Seanspeed]

I disagree (mildly) with that ^. Nico has nothing to worry about. The race situation is out of his control, he has to win. Lewis on the other hand has a choice ..... race for the win and control the race from the front, or try to stay out of trouble. With all the elements seemingly in his favor, Lewis has a lot to lose.

Nico doesn't even have to win. It well and truly is out of his control. He needs Lewis to retire. Pretty much any other scenario is a losing situation. If Lewis is out of the picture, he'd only need 2nd place, so basically, whether he can beat Lewis or not is irrelevant. Nico himself doesn't need to take any risks. Just cruise that Mercedes home and cross his fingers something happens to Lewis.

[KiloWatt]

Newey's at it again.

I thought that sonofabitch was retired? This stinks to holy hell...

[paulogman]

You would think they've learned from their mistakes...

yes Sam Michael had learned from all his previous mistakes and has refined it into an art form

[CHIUNDA]

Hmm, I thought the Williams front wing flexed like crazy under aero load, but didn't notice it on the Red Bull. I wonder how they determine which is and isn't allowed.

Dunno know why but this reminded me of BMW Williams way back in 2007 with their dodgy fuel. Could have won Lewis the title if the McLaren appeal had been successful. Here they are again (Williams) hanging over Hamilton's title like the Devil in a horror movie.

Edited by CHIUNDA, 22 November 2014 - 16:03.

[RealRacing]

There are a lot of silly rule changes in my view. I hate the DRS addition, the new tech/power unit regulations, but no ones going around saying that Mercede isn't worthy of what they got now. All of the teams had the same circumstances to work with and some benefited from it, others didn't. The same way Nico is benefiting from this rule now, though benefiting is a strong word. As Nico won't probably win it, as Lewis season results are not in vain, as he doesn't need to fight or win against Nico. The good results he got in the past races let him be in this WAY better position than Nico. 

 

Some would say they lobbied for certain rules and then designed the perfect car for them. So, in a way, it could be argued they maneuvered their way to a championship. But that´s for another thread...

Edited by RealRacing, 22 November 2014 - 16:04.

[Skizo]

Nico can try to hold up Lewis,while staying in front of him,and help the Williamses pass Hamilton.This is the most he can do,because just winning is not enough.

[MikeV1987]

I'll be surprised if RBR gets penalized for that front wing.

[DanardiF1]

Nico can try to hold up Lewis,while staying in front of him,and help the Williamses pass Hamilton.This is the most he can do,because just winning is not enough.

 

The Mercs will be able to deal with the Williams with no problem tomorrow, just like the rest of the season. If Nico decides to try and hold Lewis up he's only holding up his own race too. It may also get to the point where Lewis realises he can't be held up much more by Nico and just tries to get by him.

[HeadFirst]

Nico doesn't even have to win. It well and truly is out of his control. He needs Lewis to retire. Pretty much any other scenario is a losing situation. If Lewis is out of the picture, he'd only need 2nd place, so basically, whether he can beat Lewis or not is irrelevant. Nico himself doesn't need to take any risks. Just cruise that Mercedes home and cross his fingers something happens to Lewis.

 

True mathematically, but I don't think Nico will treat it that way. I think he will go for the win, and hope that some misfortune befalls Lewis, keeping him out of second.

[Okyo]

Some would say they lobbied for certain rules and then designed the perfect car for them. So, in a way, it could be argued they maneuvered their way to a championship. But that´s for another thread...

Still, no ones making a big deal out of it. The rule change enabled them to get a brilliant car and win. The rules were fair and same for everyone though. Same thing here with Nico. The rules enabled him to have a chance at the WDC tomorrow. The rules are fair and same for everyone. 

Seeing people basicly saying "I don't like the rules, they ain't like it used to be, though fair and same for everyone . Let's belittle a drivers WDC because of this." Having a hard time seeing much sense in this.

Edited by Okyo, 22 November 2014 - 16:12.

[OO7]

What happened to Mercedes' incredible 1.7 second gap that some were crying about after practice?

[anti]

Practice 3:  :: Sector times :: Lap Chart
Qualification:  :: Sector times :: Lap Chart
 

[RealRacing]

Still, no ones making a big deal out of it. The rule change enabled them to get a brilliant car and win. The rules were fair and same for everyone though. Same thing here with Nico. The rules enabled him to have a chance at the WDC tomorrow. The rules are fair and same for everyone. 

Seeing people basicly saying "I don't like the rules, they ain't like it used to be, though fair and same for everyone . Let's belittle a drivers WDC because of this." Having a hard time seeing much sense in this.

Hmm, what I was hinting at is that, being a huge player in the world auto market and having a deep pocket, Mercedes, like other big teams before them, in a way "designed" or 'helped design" the rules, or lobbied for the rules to be changed to favor them as much as possible, i.e, they started designing their car years ago for this hoping that their lobbying paid off in the end. So, if you want to be either very realistic or really skeptical, you could say that the rules were the same for everyone, ESPECIALLY Mercedes. But, as said, that's for another thread.

 

As far as Nico's situation is concerned, yes he just plays by the rules. However, each fan has the right to see his championship, if it happens, as he/she wishes and they would be, IMO, right, if they chose to see it as tainted. Yes, Nico is just playing by the rules as they are this year, but if those rules don't have the respect of the public, and, as a result, neither has his WDC if it happens, tough ****.   If you really want to be a**l about it, you could argue that the drivers should have been the ones opposing this the most as there was the clear possibility that their championship could be viewed as tainted.

[Okyo]

Hmm, what I was hinting at is that, being a huge player in the world auto market and having a deep pocket, Mercedes, like other big teams before them, in a way "designed" or 'helped design" the rules, or lobbied for the rules to be changed to favor them as much as possible, i.e, they started designing their car years ago for this hoping that their lobbying paid off in the end. So, if you want to be either very realistic or really skeptical, you could say that the rules were the same for everyone, ESPECIALLY Mercedes. But, as said, that's for another thread.

 

As far as Nico's situation is concerned, yes he just plays by the rules. However, each fan has the right to see his championship, if it happens, as he/she wishes and they would be, IMO, right, if they chose to see it as tainted. Yes, Nico is just playing by the rules as they are this year, but if those rules don't have the respect of the public, and, as a result, neither has his WDC if it happens, tough ****.   If you really want to be a**l about it, you could argue that the drivers should have been the ones opposing this the most as there was the clear possibility that their championship could be viewed as tainted.

Yeah it's a personal decision. I just think it's a decent step to make from hating the rule to belittling a drivers WDC. For example, i myself agree completely with you on the rule. I hate it, i see it as Bernie's way of getting the ratings up till the very end. BUT, i don't do the additional step to consider the WDC winner because of the rule unworthy. In a way, i see it a lil unfair to the driver, as he didn't really have a choice and did his absolute best to get the WDC with the rules that are fair and equal to everyone. Guess it's a matter of opinion.

I do like that you're opinion is based on the hate of the rule and NOT disliking or liking one of the drivers. I respect that a lot. I personally don't care who wins it, as i don't support either. Just at times, feel that Nico is getting sh*t thrown at him, which he doesn't deserve.

Edited by Okyo, 22 November 2014 - 17:02.

[Leprechau]

Damn, Hamilton is doing some serious mistakes/being slower lately in qualy. No qualy god anymore?

 

he never was

 

Rosberg showed up Lewis already as early as Bahrain last year(0,5s gap).

 

Lewis was never really fast in qualifying mode and Nico just exposed that. The same can be said about Ricciardo and Vettel

 

[MJB5990]

So his qualifying record in 2010, 2011 and 2012 was just strong because he was against Button? Despite the fact that he was the one most likely to trouble the Red Bull's come Saturday afternoon. How about 2013 and 2014 with Mercedes where he has still achieved 12 pole positions?

[Nigol]

His qualifying performance was insane, I've seen laps from Hamilton in the past years which were just amazing.

I don't know what is going on this year, but he is not on it.

[sennafan24]

he never was

 

Rosberg showed up Lewis already as early as Bahrain last year(0,5s gap).

 

Lewis was never really fast in qualifying mode and Nico just exposed that. The same can be said about Ricciardo and Vettel

 

Lewis was never a qualifying god, there is no qualifying god in this era. However, the people who are defining Nico as a "qualifying god" are either working from a very loose definition, or have very low standards. Lewis's qualifying this year has been worse than usual. Remember, Lewis beat Nico 11-8 last year. When Lewis is near the peak of his powers, he can beat Nico regularly over 1 lap. They are both top qualifiers, and evenly matched overall (if we count 2013 and 2014 they are more or less even over 1 lap)

 

"Never really fast in qualifying mode" you say? I disagree. That is absolute thinking. Just because a driver is not head and shoulders above the other top drivers in a certain department, does not mean he is "never really fast". Plus you can not cherry pick one bad qualifying performance like you did with Bahrain. If you want to cite your points properly, I suggest you use a cluster of performances, which you had the chance to do.

Edited by sennafan24, 23 November 2014 - 11:42.

[MissingTheApex]

he never was

 

Rosberg showed up Lewis already as early as Bahrain last year(0,5s gap).

 

Lewis was never really fast in qualifying mode and Nico just exposed that. The same can be said about Ricciardo and Vettel

 

 

Not sure if serious....

Edited by MissingTheApex, 23 November 2014 - 11:44.

[RealRacing]

he never was

 

Rosberg showed up Lewis already as early as Bahrain last year(0,5s gap).

 

Lewis was never really fast in qualifying mode and Nico just exposed that. The same can be said about Ricciardo and Vettel

 

Does this mean FA and JB are bad qualifyers then?