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So much love for Honda but nothing for Renault, why?


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#1 Boing 2

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Posted 22 November 2014 - 18:37

Everyone and his dog seems to be convinced that a Honda engine deal is a one way ticket to success, the name evokes powerful emotions and much respect. Meanwhile, teams are actively beating a path out of Renault supply contracts and lambasting them in the media, I don't get this at all and when you look at the respective histories of the two organisations it remains just as confusing.

 

Honda came in first as a works team, after which they retired with a single victory, then came back as an engine supplier where they scored 6 successive constructors titles and 5 drivers titles with Williams and McLaren.

They left Again, coming back as a supplier with Mugen Honda branding where they scored 4 race wins then with BAR (no wins) before returning as a works team where they scored a single victory and left the sport.

 

Renault came in as a works team too but tread their own path and introduced the game-changing turbo engine to the grid, won 15 races and finished 2nd in the constructors title (to a team widely acknowledged to be running illegal fuel).

They returned as an engine supplier with Williams and Bennetton and again tread their own path with a soon to be widely adopted V10 format when the big names were running V12's. They won 6 constructors titles and 5 drivers titles . They didn't chase outright horsepower as was the fashion but pursued fuel economy, lightness, driveability, cooling and packaging efficiency, pushing chassis integration to new highs, the rest of the grid again followed suit.

They came back again as a constructor, again on their own terms with an unfashionably wide angle V10 engine, 2 more drivers titles, and constructors titles followed.

They then returned as a supplier with Red Bull, a conventional engine this time but still, 4 more constructors titles and drivers titles followed with Lotus and Williams also enjoying a strong season each with their engines.

 

They have succeeded in every era of their involvement bar one, where they finished 2nd to a dubious rival. They have changed the direction of the sport at every involvement bar one, they have 12 constructors titles, 11 drivers titles and 168 race wins to Hondas 6 constructors titles, 5 drivers titles and 72 race wins. Furthermore, to the best of my knowledge, Honda have never introduced game changing technology to the sport even in their most dominant years.

 

So why are Honda seen as F1 heros, guaranteed to succeed, whilst Renault gets a public beating from its customers after 1 bad season (in which they still won 3 races and finished 2nd in the constructors title....) and teams are running to get away from them?


Edited by Boing 2, 22 November 2014 - 18:39.


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#2 MP422

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Posted 22 November 2014 - 18:39

Much bigger budget ? McLaren-Honda legacy ?



#3 Imateria

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Posted 22 November 2014 - 18:45

First, there's a lot of caution over whether Honda will be winners again or not, as you've said they don't exactly have a 100% strike rate. Second, Renault have a crap engine this year and everyone knows it.

 

The only teams that have been particularly vocal regarding the engine this year are Red Bull, who are serial whiners in this respect regardless of whether they're winning or not, and Lotus who have since switched to Mercedes and I don't think have been linked to Honda at all.



#4 Boing 2

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Posted 22 November 2014 - 18:47

I've always felt the association with Senna helped them, Renault lacked a long term association with a similarly iconic driver but surely that can't be the whole thing.



#5 Boing 2

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Posted 22 November 2014 - 18:49

First, there's a lot of caution over whether Honda will be winners again or not, as you've said they don't exactly have a 100% strike rate. Second, Renault have a crap engine this year and everyone knows it.

 

The only teams that have been particularly vocal regarding the engine this year are Red Bull, who are serial whiners in this respect regardless of whether they're winning or not, and Lotus who have since switched to Mercedes and I don't think have been linked to Honda at all.

 

Williams also jumped ship last year to Mercedes, I don't question that this years engine isn't up to speed it's simply that, as a manufacturer, I feel they have outclassed consistently Honda yet enjoy much less respect.



#6 senna da silva

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Posted 22 November 2014 - 18:52

Renault has far more GP racing history than Honda.

I respect both for wanting to compete in the pinnacle of motorsport.  :up:



#7 Boing 2

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Posted 22 November 2014 - 19:04

Renault has far more GP racing history than Honda.

I respect both for wanting to compete in the pinnacle of motorsport.  :up:

 

By my count, it's 34 seasons of official involvement for Renault and 26 for Honda, 30 if you count Mugen Honda.  That's not a huge difference when you think that Renault have more than double the success.



#8 senna da silva

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Posted 22 November 2014 - 19:08

By my count, it's 34 seasons of official involvement for Renault and 26 for Honda, 30 if you count Mugen Honda.  That's not a huge difference when you think that Renault have more than double the success.

 

Sure, but we should also count the number of teams supplied and the number of seasons when entered as a factory team. Renault has also contributed a lot to the lesser formulas over the years.

As I say, I respect both for their commitment to motorsport. 



#9 Sausage

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Posted 22 November 2014 - 19:16

Honda is just more cool for various reasons, like the huge motorcycle connection and being from Japan. Not that it matters if failure comes, who knows we'll all be laughing at them in a year. BrawnGP being dominant was absolutely funny for example.



#10 Nathan

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Posted 22 November 2014 - 19:37

Renault doesn't have that coolness about it.  The Senna effect for Honda.  I think Wiliams took most of the credit for their 90's success.

 

Personally when I think of motorsports I think Chevrolet, Ferrari, Mercedes & Renault.



#11 Fabien Pousset

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Posted 22 November 2014 - 19:47

Renault as an engine supplier and as a whole team is an odd one. Nearly all other engine suppliers and teams throughout F1 history are either brands with a high level of recognition for legendary road cars, or have made a name for themselves in other branches of motorsports. Toyota, Honda, Ferrari, Ford certainly fall into either or both categories.

 

But Renault's other claim to fame are their cheap, classless, boring but ultimately family-friendly road cars. That doesn't do much for their appeal as a leading motorsports entity. 


Edited by Fabien Pousset, 22 November 2014 - 19:48.


#12 LORDBYRON

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Posted 22 November 2014 - 19:49

Why buy a Lada when you can buy a Ferrari  



#13 BRG

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Posted 22 November 2014 - 20:22

Renault as an engine supplier and as a whole team is an odd one. Nearly all other engine suppliers and teams throughout F1 history are either brands with a high level of recognition for legendary road cars, or have made a name for themselves in other branches of motorsports. Toyota, Honda, Ferrari, Ford certainly fall into either or both categories.

 

But Renault's other claim to fame are their cheap, classless, boring but ultimately family-friendly road cars. That doesn't do much for their appeal as a leading motorsports entity. 

Sorry, that doesn't stand up.  Take Ferrari out of the equation and tell me how Toyota, Honda and Ford have either made legendary road cars or made a name elsewhere and that Renault haven't.  Renault won the first ever Grand Prix.  Like Ford, they won Le Mans.  They won the Monte Carlo Rally, they have won in touring cars.  They have a long legacy as a motorsporting company, equally as good, if not better than those others.

 

On the other hand, they ARE French.....



#14 Kristian

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Posted 22 November 2014 - 20:29

Honda is just more cool for various reasons, like the huge motorcycle connection and being from Japan. Not that it matters if failure comes, who knows we'll all be laughing at them in a year. BrawnGP being dominant was absolutely funny for example.

 

I think I remember Ross (or someone else high up in the team) saying that part of their dominance was due to being forced to take the Mercedes engine - even with the 'hack job' of fitting it into the car, he thinks the Honda engine would have been too heavy and underpowered to have maybe operated at that level that year. 



#15 micktosin

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Posted 22 November 2014 - 20:30

Because people will rather Mclaren win than Redbull who have been winning everything for the past 4 and a half years, hence more support for Mercedes and Honda.



#16 Skizo

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Posted 22 November 2014 - 20:35

I think the difference could be the street cars and Senna.Honda made some bulletproof special cars,and im not talking about 300 special car,but ten thousands of NSX and S2000.High revving TypeR series in the 90's.

In short Vtec just kicked in yo.

 

And it's not French.



#17 Boing 2

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Posted 22 November 2014 - 20:38

When you look at most young guys coming into F1 these days they're doing it through Formula Renault and FR 3.5, they've become the industry standard ladder to F1. If that and a dozen driver and constructors titles haven't sexed up your brand then maybe the whole concept of motorsport improving the brand is bullshit.

 

Also, as a car maker they have had a few classics, the Renault turbo was one of the original hot hatches, a legend of it's day.

 

Maybe as a few have said, Honda have had a few great 'Halo' cars which create the impression of superiority, same with the Senna association.

 

It's not so much that I can't understand Hondas appeal, it's more that I can't understand the lack of Renault's


Edited by Boing 2, 22 November 2014 - 20:40.


#18 HP

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Posted 23 November 2014 - 00:26

As to Renault. My father used an R4 for work, one of my first employers used it to deliver goods. I drove both of their R4's too occasionally.  In general Renault in the region where I grew up , except for the Alpine has been perceived as a car for doing work. For the looks and comfort there was Citröen, For power and important to racing - especially in modern times - Peugeot. One could write a tale about the impact 2 Seb's had for their teams. Vettel stands for Red Bull, Loeb for Peugeot. Add to it, that Loeb became a national celebrity

 

And in F1? Le professeur and Renault, was not a success story when it should have been. Prost got sacked because so say some, he criticised Renault too much. 1983: Alain Prost later recalled that

 

"that year there was a good turbo to have and bad one. We had the bad one".

 

 

He lost the championship lead that year in the last race because of turbo failure. Even had they won, I'm not sure that the combination of both Renault and Prost, would have been able to overcome the legend, who is called Ayrton Senna Da Silva, McLaren and Honda tremendously profited from Senna's charisma.

 

Is there a the chance of a Prost movie? Maybe if Prost would have succeeded as a team owner.

 

Even Senna's death and the surrounding mystery regarding the exact circumstances of that fatal accident helped to cement the status. Not to mention it was Williams who used a Renault engine that year.

 

As to your point about Formula Renault. It's a series were young people learning their skills for higher series. While very important, what media exposure does it get it in the non-motor racing media? And how much in the motor racing related media?



#19 Jimisgod

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Posted 23 November 2014 - 17:09

Renault doesn't have that coolness about it. The Senna effect for Honda. I think Wiliams took most of the credit for their 90's success.

Personally when I think of motorsports I think Chevrolet, Ferrari, Mercedes & Renault.


No love for Ford and the most successful single engine in F1?

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#20 muramasa

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Posted 23 November 2014 - 17:30

Everyone and his dog seems to be convinced that a Honda engine deal is a one way ticket to success,

Everyone? I havent seen such opinion ever. Mclaren fans are happy about new works status after losing that status from Merc and looking forward to new challenge and era, nothing less nothing more.

 

 

So why are Honda seen as F1 heros, guaranteed to succeed, whilst Renault gets a public beating from its customers after 1 bad season (in which they still won 3 races and finished 2nd in the constructors title....) and teams are running to get away from them?

Really? If anything Honda has been literally a laughing stock for the past decade due to their lack of result and those sickening earth cars. That's the factor Honda themselves mentioned as one of reasons for coming back, they want to turn that image around.

Also most general F1 fans are realistic about Honda's chance - they might do fine, might suck.

 

Honda coming back might be relatively welcomed by the community atm but that's because they are the first new manufacturer in so many years after F1 losing so many of them in Toyota, BMW, Ford(cosworth), and Honda. Kind of honeymoon period, it will soon be over for sure.

 

I agree Renault currently is unfairly "disliked" tho. Maybe they share the dislike with Vettel/RBR for being so dominant for many years. That's totally unjustifiable. They deserve fullest respect, just like any other manufacturers.



#21 George Costanza

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Posted 23 November 2014 - 17:33

Its rather simple...

 

Honda and Ayrton Senna. But Japan loved Ayron like no other...

 

Yes, Ayrton worked with Renault (and probably would have won the 1994 and 1995 WDC with Williams Renault).



#22 KingTiger

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Posted 23 November 2014 - 17:49

I agree that Renault are probably the most likely engine to beat Mercedes in the near future, while Honda might very well have an engine that can't even compete with the terrible Ferrari. 



#23 Tombstone

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Posted 23 November 2014 - 17:56

My 'dislike' of Renault goes back to the days of the FISA-FOCA wars. Before then I rather admired them for being the first team to introduce 1.5L forced induction engines during 'my' era.



#24 Imateria

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Posted 23 November 2014 - 18:22

It's worth remembering that a lot of Renault's successes have had other names attached to them. The Le Mans wins came with Alpine, as did many of the rally wins, the super touring wins came with Williams and the most recent wins in F1 came with Red Bull, who preferred to the complain about the Renault engine than praise it (despite it being exactly what they wanted, but it certianly didn't help with image), and Team Enstone, of which a lot is made of their history all the way back to the Toleman days. Even the Renault 3.5 engine is from Zytec and the GP2 engine from Mechacrome regardless of the badge.

 

I think this lack of respect just doesn't exist, they've won a lot in many different categories and many people acknowledge that, remember in 2012 there was a lot being made of the Williams-Renault partnership starting up again even if it didn't last long. They've just produced a rubbish engine this year and rightly copped a lot of flack for it. As for Honda, they're the first new/returning manufacturer to come into the sport since Toyota in 2002, the end of a 12/3 year wait for new blood cannot be a bad thing. 



#25 Fastcake

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Posted 23 November 2014 - 18:30

No love for Ford and the most successful single engine in F1?

 

No, but I have plenty for Cosworth.  ;)



#26 pathogen

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Posted 23 November 2014 - 18:33

I love Renault and all the sport racing french radition... and I don't hate Honda



#27 ClubmanGT

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Posted 23 November 2014 - 18:40

I love Renault and all the sport racing french radition... and I don't hate Honda

 

The French sport racing tradition is cheating and fixing results  :p Hardly something to be enamoured with.



#28 ClubmanGT

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Posted 23 November 2014 - 18:40

I love Renault and all the sport racing french radition... and I don't hate Honda

 

The French sport racing tradition is cheating and fixing results  :p Hardly something to be enamoured with.



#29 Jon83

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Posted 23 November 2014 - 19:00

I thought it was Mercedes that everybody seemed to love? 



#30 bonjon1979a

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Posted 23 November 2014 - 19:16

Why buy a Lada when you can buy a Ferrari


Miles per gallon.

#31 Gorma

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Posted 23 November 2014 - 19:20

Mugen had "nothing" to do with Honda.



#32 Fastcake

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Posted 23 November 2014 - 19:33

Miles per gallon.

 

You'll get higher MPG from a Ferrari, as no Lada has ever gone more than a mile before breaking down.



#33 Ricardo F1

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Posted 23 November 2014 - 19:37

Honestly I think it's the power of branding.  McLaren Honda has a fantastic legacy ; Williams-Renault had a pretty good one . .. Red Bull . . . um, what engine did Red Bull have in it again?  Red Bull are such a powerful brand team and so in control nobody gave a rats ass that Renault won 4 back to back titles, ask most people with a bit of knowledge and they probably would say Red Bull won . . NEVER Red Bull Renault.  McLaren-Honda though . . .



#34 pathogen

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Posted 23 November 2014 - 22:54

The French sport racing tradition is cheating and fixing results  :p Hardly something to be enamoured with.

forgive me... I beg you.



#35 Massa

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Posted 23 November 2014 - 23:07

Much bigger budget ? McLaren-Honda legacy ?

 

Renault have much better legacy than Honda. It's not even close.



#36 Massa

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Posted 23 November 2014 - 23:15


On the other hand, they ARE French.....

 

So ?

 

The French sport racing tradition is cheating and fixing results  :p Hardly something to be enamoured with.

 

It's not funny.



#37 santori

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Posted 23 November 2014 - 23:27

Hmm. I've never thought that Renault lacked mystique or respect. To the extent that I'm a fan of any manufacturer I'm a fan of Renault.

 

Maybe being associated with the unpopular Red Bull championships has put a temporary cloud over them? Especially as Red Bull liked to suggest that they were winning despite their engines rather than because of them.



#38 garoidb

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Posted 23 November 2014 - 23:32

Its rather simple...

 

Honda and Ayrton Senna. But Japan loved Ayron like no other...

 

Yes, Ayrton worked with Renault (and probably would have won the 1994 and 1995 WDC with Williams Renault).

 

And also Nelson Piquet, the first Honda powered World Champion, and the first WDC with three engine makes - followed by Michael Schumacher and Alain Prost. 



#39 Nathan

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Posted 23 November 2014 - 23:36

No love for Ford and the most successful single engine in F1?

You know, I spent a few minutes considering Ford before posting this, as I consider myself a 'Ford person'.  I think I goofed :smoking:



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#40 garoidb

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Posted 23 November 2014 - 23:40

And also Nelson Piquet, the first Honda powered World Champion, and the first WDC with three engine makes - followed by Michael Schumacher and Alain Prost. 

 

Actually, Lewis Hamilton joined a nice club today. Five drivers (to my reckoning) have won WDCs with normally aspirated and turbo engines. These were, in order, Nelson Piquet, Niki Lauda, Alain Prost, Ayrton Senna and Lewis Hamilton.



#41 scheivlak

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Posted 23 November 2014 - 23:43

And also Nelson Piquet, the first Honda powered World Champion, and the first WDC with three engine makes - followed by Michael Schumacher and Alain Prost. 

How about Fangio then   ;)

 

OK, no Honda  :D but still WDC with Alfa Romeo, Maserati and Mercedes, then Mercedes, then Ferrari (ex-Lancia  ;)) and finally with Maserati again.



#42 garoidb

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Posted 23 November 2014 - 23:49

How about Fangio then   ;)

 

OK, no Honda  :D but still WDC with Alfa Romeo, Maserati and Mercedes, then Mercedes, then Ferrari (ex-Lancia  ;)) and finally with Maserati again.

 

Yup, add him to the top of the list. Can't believe I forgot him. 

 

I have just realised that all the turbo WDCs have also won a WDC with a normally aspirated engine, either before or after.



#43 scheivlak

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Posted 23 November 2014 - 23:51

Actually, Lewis Hamilton joined a nice club today. Five drivers (to my reckoning) have won WDCs with normally aspirated and turbo engines. These were, in order, Nelson Piquet, Niki Lauda, Alain Prost, Ayrton Senna and Lewis Hamilton.

As the turbo engines of the 80s were homologated as "supercharged" (re: 1966 F1 rules) there is something to be said to mention Fangio's 1951 title in this respect as well.



#44 George Costanza

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Posted 23 November 2014 - 23:57

And also Nelson Piquet, the first Honda powered World Champion, and the first WDC with three engine makes - followed by Michael Schumacher and Alain Prost. 

 

Indeed.

 

Is Ayrton the only 3 time world champion that won in 3 different power units.... Turbo V6, V10 and V12. In that short time span? That is impressive....


Edited by George Costanza, 23 November 2014 - 23:58.


#45 George Costanza

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Posted 24 November 2014 - 00:00

I would hope that Fernando can join Ayrton as a member of that club.... V10, V8 and Turbo V6.



#46 ClubmanGT

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Posted 24 November 2014 - 00:09

So ?

 

 

It's not funny.

 

Lighten up, no one is seriously having a go at anyone here.


Edited by ClubmanGT, 24 November 2014 - 00:09.


#47 noikeee

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Posted 24 November 2014 - 02:05

Because the current Renault engine is crap and we don't know yet if the Honda engine will be crap too.

#48 NoDivergence

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Posted 24 November 2014 - 02:10

http://gfycat.com/OddUntidyKinglet#



#49 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 24 November 2014 - 07:16

Plenty of people LOVE Renault and are utterly fanatical, the OP premise is just wrong!?  :confused:

 

http://www.cliosport.net/

 

http://www.ozrenaultsport.com/

 

http://www.meganesport.net/



#50 HP

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Posted 24 November 2014 - 07:22

You know, I spent a few minutes considering Ford before posting this, as I consider myself a 'Ford person'.  I think I goofed :smoking:

Ford what?

 

Sorry, I only have had negative experiences with Ford cars myself, so I stick with Cosworth...