Jump to content


Photo

Flag wavers


  • Please log in to reply
57 replies to this topic

#1 Odseybod

Odseybod
  • Member

  • 1,799 posts
  • Joined: January 08

Posted 24 November 2014 - 09:04

I was going to ask this over on RC but decided I was more likely to get an informative and/or enteraining answer here, even though it relates to Modern Stuff.

 

I'm sure there used to be a rule that prohibited drivers for picking up anything - particularly a flag - for their victory lap.  When was it  repealed, or was it just quietly forgotten? 

 

No prizes for guessing what set me wondering about this.


Edited by Odseybod, 24 November 2014 - 09:04.


Advertisement

#2 Vitesse2

Vitesse2
  • Administrator

  • 41,742 posts
  • Joined: April 01

Posted 24 November 2014 - 09:13

As far as I know, that rule is still there - as is the one against 'doughnuts'. Both Lewis and Jenson were doughnutting yesterday - but maybe Lewis felt he could afford whatever the fines were (I don't think there are grid or drive-through penalties) and Jenson perhaps felt it might not be a problem, given the apparent uncertainty over his future. :well:

 

Or maybe it's relaxed for the final race of the season?

 

(Frankly, I'd rather see drivers celebrating with a doughnut or two than spraying everybody with champagne or rose water!)



#3 BRG

BRG
  • Member

  • 25,883 posts
  • Joined: September 99

Posted 24 November 2014 - 18:00

It was my understanding that flag waving, doughnuts, multiple liveries, inaccurate parking of transporters and indeed any display of unsanctioned enthusiasm or human emotion had been banned by Chairman Ecclestone.

 

Kudos to anyone who sticks two fingers up to the killjoys and just does it anyway.  :up:



#4 alansart

alansart
  • Member

  • 4,419 posts
  • Joined: March 07

Posted 24 November 2014 - 20:34

I seem to remember there was a slight relaxation of the rules regarding doughnuts. But lets face it, I'm sure we all like racers who show their enthusiasm with a few well planned spins and ignore the consequences :)



#5 D-Type

D-Type
  • Member

  • 9,698 posts
  • Joined: February 03

Posted 24 November 2014 - 20:38

Well, Lewis has the defence that he couldn't celebrate his victory with a drink of champagne so he had to do otherwise.



#6 D28

D28
  • Member

  • 2,012 posts
  • Joined: April 14

Posted 24 November 2014 - 20:48

Agree with BRG on this. Current F1 can use all the individual exuberance drivers can muster. It is not as if they cannot absorb any fine levied.

I have read of the pristine arrangement of parked transporters in the paddock, but is there really a rule and inspection of the parking?

 

What's so refreshing about the photos from the paddock section is the casual look of those paddocks, as well as the  machinery pictured. Obviously, I came into motorsport in a much earlier era.



#7 GMACKIE

GMACKIE
  • Member

  • 13,011 posts
  • Joined: January 11

Posted 24 November 2014 - 21:18

Same here......remember when paddocks were Paddocks ?



#8 Lee Nicolle

Lee Nicolle
  • Member

  • 11,036 posts
  • Joined: July 08

Posted 24 November 2014 - 21:57

Same here......remember when paddocks were Paddocks ?

Greg, they still are for us mere mortals. Especially for those of us who do 'interesting' hillclimbs. Mt Alma for instance is literally a cow paddock. Even Mallala. PI etc for those who do not buy a shed is still just a grassed flat area.



#9 alansart

alansart
  • Member

  • 4,419 posts
  • Joined: March 07

Posted 24 November 2014 - 22:08

Agree with BRG on this. Current F1 can use all the individual exuberance drivers can muster. It is not as if they cannot absorb any fine levied.

I have read of the pristine arrangement of parked transporters in the paddock, but is there really a rule and inspection of the parking?

 

What's so refreshing about the photos from the paddock section is the casual look of those paddocks, as well as the  machinery pictured. Obviously, I came into motorsport in a much earlier era.

Can you imagine Ron Dennis allowing beer glasses on the side of the cars these days.......

Silverstone 1973. Happy days  :wave: 

http://www.alanraine...co.uk/73GP.html


Edited by alansart, 24 November 2014 - 22:09.


#10 GMACKIE

GMACKIE
  • Member

  • 13,011 posts
  • Joined: January 11

Posted 24 November 2014 - 22:16

Greg, they still are for us mere mortals. Especially for those of us who do 'interesting' hillclimbs. Mt Alma for instance is literally a cow paddock. Even Mallala. PI etc for those who do not buy a shed is still just a grassed flat area.

And probably more fun...being surrounded by cowsh-t, rather than bullsh-t.  ;)



#11 D28

D28
  • Member

  • 2,012 posts
  • Joined: April 14

Posted 24 November 2014 - 22:18

Can you imagine Ron Dennis allowing beer glasses on the side of the cars these days.......

Silverstone 1973. Happy days  :wave: 

http://www.alanraine...co.uk/73GP.html

What I like are the views of DFVs and other equipment sitting on the ground, plus the cheap lawn chairs which everyone was content to relax in. Exactly what I had in mind!



#12 Ray Bell

Ray Bell
  • Member

  • 79,955 posts
  • Joined: December 99

Posted 25 November 2014 - 00:01

Originally posted by Vitesse2
.....(Frankly, I'd rather see drivers celebrating with a doughnut or two than spraying everybody with champagne or rose water!)


You have 100% agreement from me on that!

#13 Allan Lupton

Allan Lupton
  • Member

  • 4,050 posts
  • Joined: March 06

Posted 25 November 2014 - 09:04


(Frankly, I'd rather see drivers celebrating with a doughnut or two than spraying everybody with champagne or rose water!)

I never saw the point of the so-called doughnut, but I agree that spraying is as naff as it gets.

When I were a lad they drank the champagne (out of the big cup they'd just been awarded) and passed the cup round the runners-up and their mechanics - even those few who didn't drink went through the appropriate motions..

I remember James Hunt as an early sprayer but can't think who was first.



#14 WOT

WOT
  • Member

  • 1,701 posts
  • Joined: November 14

Posted 25 November 2014 - 09:13

I never saw the point of the so-called doughnut, but I agree that spraying is as naff as it gets.

When I were a lad they drank the champagne (out of the big cup they'd just been awarded) and passed the cup round the runners-up and their mechanics - even those few who didn't drink went through the appropriate motions..

I remember James Hunt as an early sprayer but can't think who was first.

 

Dan Gurney after his '67 Le Mans win started the tradition....



#15 Ray Bell

Ray Bell
  • Member

  • 79,955 posts
  • Joined: December 99

Posted 25 November 2014 - 09:16

Sorry...

I've previously posted a photo from Racing Car News of Graham Hill doing it over a year earlier than that... at Lakeside for the Australian Grand Prix of 1966.

#16 Tim Murray

Tim Murray
  • Moderator

  • 24,582 posts
  • Joined: May 02

Posted 25 November 2014 - 10:07

You posted it twice in the same thread, Ray, several years apart, but, as so often happens, neither of them is still visible:

http://forums.autosp...5777-squirting/

In that thread DCN reckoned he'd seen it done before 1966. Also discussed here:

http://forums.autosp...pagne-spraying/

and Dan still believes it was him:

http://allamericanra...ory-dan-gurney/


Edited by Tim Murray, 25 November 2014 - 10:12.


#17 Odseybod

Odseybod
  • Member

  • 1,799 posts
  • Joined: January 08

Posted 25 November 2014 - 10:57

I believe The Rules now require champagne (or its locally acceptable substitute) to be sprayed at the appropriate part of the choreographed podium ceremony.

 

Fully agree about the days when EffWun Paddocks were a bit more accessible (this was Silverstone's in 1971).

 

BGP_14.jpg
 


Edited by Odseybod, 25 November 2014 - 10:58.


#18 Tim Murray

Tim Murray
  • Moderator

  • 24,582 posts
  • Joined: May 02

Posted 25 November 2014 - 11:16

It must have made that small boy's day to have helped to push a Grand Prix car.



#19 WOT

WOT
  • Member

  • 1,701 posts
  • Joined: November 14

Posted 25 November 2014 - 11:35

Sorry...

I've previously posted a photo from Racing Car News of Graham Hill doing it over a year earlier than that... at Lakeside for the Australian Grand Prix of 1966.

 

 

My humble apologies, I wasn't aware of that. Actually I'm amazed that Graham Hill would have wasted the champagne...



Advertisement

#20 Ray Bell

Ray Bell
  • Member

  • 79,955 posts
  • Joined: December 99

Posted 25 November 2014 - 11:46

I posted it three times, it seems...

Anyway, it's there again now, and also here:

1114fr_RCN466hillchampers.jpg

Taken on February 20, 1966.

Don't worry about it, WOT, if you look at that thread you'll see I discovered the pic almost a year after someone had posted the usual Gurney legend.


.

Edited by Ray Bell, 27 November 2014 - 04:18.


#21 Glengavel

Glengavel
  • Member

  • 1,300 posts
  • Joined: September 06

Posted 25 November 2014 - 11:50

My humble apologies, I wasn't aware of that. Actually I'm amazed that Graham Hill would have wasted the champagne...

 

Maybe it was Australian 'champagne'...

 

(runs for cover)



#22 WOT

WOT
  • Member

  • 1,701 posts
  • Joined: November 14

Posted 25 November 2014 - 12:06

Maybe it was Australian 'champagne'...

 

(runs for cover)

 

Haha... That would explain it!!



#23 Vitesse2

Vitesse2
  • Administrator

  • 41,742 posts
  • Joined: April 01

Posted 25 November 2014 - 12:27

Maybe it was Australian 'champagne'...

 

(runs for cover)

My thoughts too!

 

To be fair, it doesn't look like a very big bottle either!



#24 D-Type

D-Type
  • Member

  • 9,698 posts
  • Joined: February 03

Posted 25 November 2014 - 20:17

But Dan Gurney did it in front of the World's news cameras, correspondents and photographers.



#25 Ray Bell

Ray Bell
  • Member

  • 79,955 posts
  • Joined: December 99

Posted 25 November 2014 - 21:37

I find it hard to believe that Hill didn't do it at some other time, either before the Lakeside incident or between then and the '67 Le Mans...

Anyway, Peter Bakalor was there!

#26 arttidesco

arttidesco
  • Member

  • 6,709 posts
  • Joined: April 10

Posted 26 November 2014 - 00:31

I am a complete dullard and killjoy, doughnuts give out completely the wrong message to the naive and gullible, Lewis and Sebastian should be ambassadors setting a good example for others to follow and restrain themselves.

 

I'm sure Fangio, Hawthorn and Moss never indulged in such foolery.



#27 Robin Fairservice

Robin Fairservice
  • Member

  • 599 posts
  • Joined: March 07

Posted 26 November 2014 - 00:50

May be Fangio etc. of that generation didn't do doughnuts because they couldn't change the brake bias between the front and back.



#28 Ray Bell

Ray Bell
  • Member

  • 79,955 posts
  • Joined: December 99

Posted 26 November 2014 - 06:02

Originally posted by arttidesco
.....I'm sure Fangio, Hawthorn and Moss never indulged in such foolery.


No, but their cars required looking after too...

They were cars that often just managed to complete the 250 or 300 miles, they had mechanics who were beat keeping them alive anyway, tyres that might be needed for the next race and all sorts of complications.

Not like today's cars where all the transmission bits are tossed at the end of each race... etc...

Not that I think these were their reasons, mind you.

#29 Tim Murray

Tim Murray
  • Moderator

  • 24,582 posts
  • Joined: May 02

Posted 26 November 2014 - 06:23

I'd suggest that the same holds true for the current F1 cars as well, what with the restriction in numbers of engines, gearboxes etc allowed during the season. If Lewis (or anyone else) had performed a doughnut at any time other than the end of the last race of the year, they would have got a severe bollocking from their teams.

#30 DanTra2858

DanTra2858
  • Member

  • 1,145 posts
  • Joined: May 10

Posted 26 November 2014 - 07:48

Same here......remember when paddocks were Paddocks ?


Greg I remember in the early days of Oran Park when I was a mere Fire Marshal along with the Flaggies our first job of the day was to remove all the Cow Dropping from the track, now that gives meaning to the word PADDOCK.

#31 Sharman

Sharman
  • Member

  • 5,284 posts
  • Joined: September 05

Posted 26 November 2014 - 09:00

It must have made that small boy's day to have helped to push a Grand Prix car.

Small boy nothing. That's Bernie isn't it?



#32 Sharman

Sharman
  • Member

  • 5,284 posts
  • Joined: September 05

Posted 26 November 2014 - 09:07

I've just managed to read through this thread and I recall there is a photograph of JMH finishing a race  (Ferrari mounted) supping a pint on his slowing down lap. Much better than spraying 3rd rate Champagne.



#33 Vitesse2

Vitesse2
  • Administrator

  • 41,742 posts
  • Joined: April 01

Posted 26 November 2014 - 09:39

I'd suggest that the same holds true for the current F1 cars as well, what with the restriction in numbers of engines, gearboxes etc allowed during the season. If Lewis (or anyone else) had performed a doughnut at any time other than the end of the last race of the year, they would have got a severe bollocking from their teams.

There are engine restrictions in IndyCar too. Doesn't stop the drivers there doing it. :) .



#34 Michael Ferner

Michael Ferner
  • Member

  • 7,124 posts
  • Joined: November 09

Posted 26 November 2014 - 09:47

Small boy nothing. That's Bernie isn't it?


:lol: :up:

#35 Glengavel

Glengavel
  • Member

  • 1,300 posts
  • Joined: September 06

Posted 26 November 2014 - 09:56

Small boy nothing. That's Bernie isn't it?

 

If he was pushing a De Dion Bouton I might be convinced...



#36 Manfred Cubenoggin

Manfred Cubenoggin
  • Member

  • 975 posts
  • Joined: October 02

Posted 26 November 2014 - 11:40

Yea, the donut thingie and other smoke show stunts are wearing rather thin.  Give it up, boys.



#37 king_crud

king_crud
  • Member

  • 7,964 posts
  • Joined: March 01

Posted 26 November 2014 - 15:00

From memory they relaxed the no doughnuts thing at the end of last year, you can now do one in a "safe area", or something like that. With all the space off the circuit at modern tracks this means everyone should be doing doughnuts after a race



#38 BRG

BRG
  • Member

  • 25,883 posts
  • Joined: September 99

Posted 26 November 2014 - 16:20

I am a complete dullard and killjoy, doughnuts give out completely the wrong message to the naive and gullible, Lewis and Sebastian should be ambassadors setting a good example for others to follow and restrain themselves.

 

I'm sure Fangio, Hawthorn and Moss never indulged in such foolery.

True, but equally, they weren't specifically banned from doing them.  It is the mind-dulling, obsessive controlling of every last little jot and iota of the 'product' that I hate.  If someone wants to wave a flag - let them.  If they want to do a doughnut - let them.  IF they want to drop their pants and moon at the crowd on the podium - let th.....well, maybe not.



#39 D28

D28
  • Member

  • 2,012 posts
  • Joined: April 14

Posted 26 November 2014 - 16:32

True, but equally, they weren't specifically banned from doing them.  It is the mind-dulling, obsessive controlling of every last little jot and iota of the 'product' that I hate.  If someone wants to wave a flag - let them.  If they want to do a doughnut - let them.  IF they want to drop their pants and moon at the crowd on the podium - let th.....well, maybe not.

Does someone actually control, measure the parking of transporters?



Advertisement

#40 BRG

BRG
  • Member

  • 25,883 posts
  • Joined: September 99

Posted 26 November 2014 - 17:13

Does someone actually control, measure the parking of transporters?

It is said that Bernie has often gone around the paddock with a measuring tape.  He appears to suffer from a form of OCD - like David Beckham arranging his Coke cans in his fridge.  A chap I used to know worked at Brabham in the Bernie days and said that he personally oversaw the positioning of sponsor decals on the cars.  Not just giving instructions, actually standing over the mechanic and saying 'up a bit, left a bit, just there, good'.  

 

Nowadays of course, the teams are all totally brainwashed into being neat tidy corporate clones and think it is 'professional' to appear just so.  The final legacy of Chairman Ecclestone will be a neatly parked transporter.



#41 D28

D28
  • Member

  • 2,012 posts
  • Joined: April 14

Posted 26 November 2014 - 17:27

Thanks BRG. It's a bit of a stretch to suggest that teams in the haphazard parking era were not professional. 



#42 BRG

BRG
  • Member

  • 25,883 posts
  • Joined: September 99

Posted 26 November 2014 - 17:38

In this instance, I was using 'professional' in the debased modern meaning, not the proper meaning.



#43 D28

D28
  • Member

  • 2,012 posts
  • Joined: April 14

Posted 26 November 2014 - 19:25

To be fair, I would concede that one reason Bernie and Ron Denis are so concerned with pristine paddocks and transporters, is that they worked in the conditions documented by the historical photos presented here. It could not all have been fun, especially in rainy conditions and especially for mechanics like Denis.

Given that, perhaps a balance somewhere between the two extremes should be possible, and something which would allow the viewing public a bit of access. Surely the pendulum has swung too far in the opposite direction. 


Edited by D28, 26 November 2014 - 19:26.


#44 BRG

BRG
  • Member

  • 25,883 posts
  • Joined: September 99

Posted 26 November 2014 - 19:42

Even the most modest clubbie paddock today has motor-homes and awnings and so on.  Things have moved on from the good old days.  Teams should of course provide the best working environment if they want to field a car as well prepared as it can be.  

 

But if Equipe TNF want to turn up with a Transit van and a F1 racing car on a Brian James trailer and put up an Army surplus bell tent in the paddock, they should be allowed to, as long as they are fielding a car that meets the regulations and passes scrutineering.  Something Red Bull, for all their bling and fancy kit, failed to manage in Abu Dhabi.



#45 arttidesco

arttidesco
  • Member

  • 6,709 posts
  • Joined: April 10

Posted 26 November 2014 - 22:19

Is a Brian James trailer a match for a TS3 powered Commer TX with the TNF 250F in the back ? :confused:



#46 Vitesse2

Vitesse2
  • Administrator

  • 41,742 posts
  • Joined: April 01

Posted 26 November 2014 - 22:51

It is said that Bernie has often gone around the paddock with a measuring tape.  He appears to suffer from a form of OCD - like David Beckham arranging his Coke cans in his fridge.  A chap I used to know worked at Brabham in the Bernie days and said that he personally oversaw the positioning of sponsor decals on the cars.  Not just giving instructions, actually standing over the mechanic and saying 'up a bit, left a bit, just there, good'.  

 

Nowadays of course, the teams are all totally brainwashed into being neat tidy corporate clones and think it is 'professional' to appear just so.  The final legacy of Chairman Ecclestone will be a neatly parked transporter.

Don't forget that even in the days of Paul Stewart Racing in F3 the first thing they did after parking the transporter - on JYS's order - was to jack it up and make sure all the tyres were in the same position, with the maker's name (Goodyear?) at the top.



#47 Ray Bell

Ray Bell
  • Member

  • 79,955 posts
  • Joined: December 99

Posted 27 November 2014 - 04:25

For the fun of it...

Originally posted by Paesan in the (archived) 'squirting' thread
Where is the BIMBO with big boobs kissing the champion? I rather have that than a parade lap.....


1114fr_RCN466hillandgirl.jpg

Graham's cup raneth over as well as his bottle that day... same magazine but the next page. Amazing what you find when you look, isn't it?

#48 Eric Dunsdon

Eric Dunsdon
  • Member

  • 1,021 posts
  • Joined: February 08

Posted 27 November 2014 - 09:08

I've just managed to read through this thread and I recall there is a photograph of JMH finishing a race  (Ferrari mounted) supping a pint on his slowing down lap. Much better than spraying 3rd rate Champagne.

Yes. I saw that!. Silverstone 1958, Becketts Corner. The glass mug was handed to Mike by Duncan Hamilton and Tony Rolt who were acting as observers. The winner, Peter Collins didnt get one!.



#49 D-Type

D-Type
  • Member

  • 9,698 posts
  • Joined: February 03

Posted 27 November 2014 - 20:01

He picked up the pint on the slowing down lap, not during the race.  Although he enjoyed life he was a professional.



#50 Sharman

Sharman
  • Member

  • 5,284 posts
  • Joined: September 05

Posted 28 November 2014 - 07:02

D type, I count the slowing down lap as a part of the race. Nowhere did I say he raced with it but some spectator was heard to remark that he didn't pick it up but that "he had it with him all the time"