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Radio restrictions scrapped for 2015 (or maybe not)


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#1 lbennie

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Posted 26 November 2014 - 11:02


Edited by lbennie, 26 November 2014 - 11:03.


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#2 ollebompa

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Posted 26 November 2014 - 11:04

Praise Jebus.



#3 RedBaron

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Posted 26 November 2014 - 11:06

Great shame, in the race tyre saving and fuel saving really is a skill the driver should have to arm himself with not be coached during a race by the team.



#4 GoldenColt

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Posted 26 November 2014 - 11:06

Hammertime!



#5 GoldenColt

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Posted 26 November 2014 - 11:08

Double points and standing SC-starts also scrapped. :up: :up:


Edited by GoldenColt, 26 November 2014 - 11:09.


#6 SenorSjon

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Posted 26 November 2014 - 11:11

V6 also scrapped? 

</wishfull thinking>



#7 Nonesuch

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Posted 26 November 2014 - 11:13

Good, with the FIA having such a hard time upholding the existing regulations you'd think they'd have been more reluctant to introduce new ways to meddle in the affairs of the teams. :up:



#8 Fatgadget

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Posted 26 November 2014 - 11:13

Double points ditched,Radio messages also,Engines to be unfrozen..WTF!..who comes up with these arse about ti* Err I meant obout face ideas in the first place? :rolleyes:...They the ones that ought to be scrapped..grrr.

Edited by Fatgadget, 26 November 2014 - 11:18.


#9 frosty125

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Posted 26 November 2014 - 11:13

Standing SC starts scrapped? That is a shame I was looking forward to that.



#10 Buttoneer

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Posted 26 November 2014 - 11:15

Excellent news about the radio messages.  Utterly pointless restriction in the first place just adding unnecessary complexity and potential for penalties which the casual fan would never really understand the reasons for.



#11 ollebompa

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Posted 26 November 2014 - 11:18

Tyre compound rules and Parc Ferme next! 



#12 Fastcake

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Posted 26 November 2014 - 11:22

It's a shame in a way, as removing driver coaching was definitely a positive thing, but it appears to be far to difficult to police.

But fantastic news that double points and standing restarts are both to be scrapped. :up:

#13 bonjon1979a

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Posted 26 November 2014 - 11:23

I think it's a real shame. Takes away any advantage one driver has over another in the same team in adjusting their car during the race.

#14 sopa

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Posted 26 November 2014 - 11:23

So why did they restrict the radio at all then? And only for 1/3 of the season anyway? Doesn't make sense. Wanted to just "test", how does it work in practice, and that's it?



#15 Disgrace

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Posted 26 November 2014 - 11:25

Regardless of how right or wrong this decision can be perceived, it's yet more evidence that the FIA should stop changing the rules mid-season. The rules and the tyre compounds should be set in stone prior to Melbourne, with the only exception being changes made for safety. They look like headless chickens.



#16 Hyatt

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Posted 26 November 2014 - 11:25

:up:  good descision, I like to hear these chats ....



#17 redreni

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Posted 26 November 2014 - 11:26

That rule was unworkable and just opened a can of worms. It was a sledgehammer to crack a nut, too, since the problem it was aimed at solving could have been solved with a quiet word in the ear of whoever selects and edits the team radio feeds for broadcast.

If he'd been told that Bernie wasn't happy, and that certain messages were giving fans the wrong impression, the whole issue could have been resolved without the need for a massive argument.



#18 KingTiger

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Posted 26 November 2014 - 11:30

I don't see why they've gone back, it was a good change. Nobody wants to hear Alonso and Vettel cry on the radio all race long. 



#19 gribbli

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Posted 26 November 2014 - 11:30

I dont see this lasting, above everything else the FIA are reactive, and the reason they introduced the ban was because the constant SOS calls from Rosberg was going down like a lead balloon with fans. Either they stop broadcasting the 'tell me how to drive' requests, or this is just going to happen all over again next season.



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#20 peroa

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Posted 26 November 2014 - 11:31

That rule was unworkable and just opened a can of worms. It was a sledgehammer to crack a nut, too, since the problem it was aimed at solving could have been solved with a quiet word in the ear of whoever selects and edits the team radio feeds for broadcast.

If he'd been told that Bernie wasn't happy, and that certain messages were giving fans the wrong impression, the whole issue could have been resolved without the need for a massive argument.

Not really, it was pretty good. 

Now we'll here "open wheel for scrubbing earlier in T5" or  "brake earlier, use higher gear in T15" which is bullshit.

Drivers should work it out for themselves not their engineers.


Edited by peroa, 26 November 2014 - 11:33.


#21 trogggy

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Posted 26 November 2014 - 11:32

I don't see why they've gone back, it was a good change. Nobody wants to hear Alonso and Vettel cry on the radio all race long. 

Crying was never banned.



#22 Brazzers

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Posted 26 November 2014 - 11:38

Standing SC restarts was one of the dumbest ideas. Glad that's scraped, potential of Spa 2012 happening every restart. 



#23 Newbrray

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Posted 26 November 2014 - 11:38

 

Fantastic !!!!! :clap:



#24 DS27

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Posted 26 November 2014 - 11:50

How many people are being paid handsomely to go round and round in circles, making up generally daft regulations and then after much debate scrapping them - one helluva job if you can get it.



#25 Kristian

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Posted 26 November 2014 - 11:51

Glad that's scraped, potential of Spa 2012 happening every restart. 

 

Well why not just ban standing starts then? 

 

I wasn't a fan of it for fairness' sake, but the safety issue was so overblown. 



#26 ANF

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Posted 26 November 2014 - 12:15



So why did they restrict the radio at all then? And only for 1/3 of the season anyway? Doesn't make sense. Wanted to just "test", how does it work in practice, and that's it?

Interestingly, the restriction was announced a couple of days after Monza when it was reported that the Williams drivers need permission from their Mercedes engineers to use certain engine modes.



#27 VolvoT5

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Posted 26 November 2014 - 12:19

I think this is a good move, the rule was almost unenforceable anyway. 



#28 Buttoneer

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Posted 26 November 2014 - 12:30

More than that, I think that if the rule was enforced, and someone penalised for a message that was technically the wrong side of the line and yet similar to others broadcast, how would you explain to people what had happened?  The drivers are not in control of the engineer who breaks the rule and the arguments about why drivers get penalised for unsafe releases etc all come home to roost here too.



#29 F1matt

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Posted 26 November 2014 - 12:35

I have always said the easiest way to control this is by banning radios on an F1 car, make the drivers responsible for operating the car instead of being coached by engineers and strategists, it devalues the sport, Nico Rosberg summed it up perfectly when he asked his engineer what he needs to do, response: drive as quick as you can.

 

And then we wonder why it is a series for rich kids and drivers sons, in short they are process operators.



#30 Kristian

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Posted 26 November 2014 - 12:35

More than that, I think that if the rule was enforced, and someone penalised for a message that was technically the wrong side of the line and yet similar to others broadcast, how would you explain to people what had happened?  The drivers are not in control of the engineer who breaks the rule and the arguments about why drivers get penalised for unsafe releases etc all come home to roost here too.

 

Indeed. 

 

And I don't think I ever read/heard what the penalities would have been. Reprimand? 5s stop-go? Drive through? Points on licence? Being butler to Bernie for a day? 



#31 HoldenRT

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Posted 26 November 2014 - 12:37

Still don't understand why it was ever an issue in the first place.  It came out of nowhere after the Monza weekend and went in one big circle.. lots of talk and now back to normal like it never happened.  Still don't understand why.  And could never work out if it truly about competition and engineers "babying them".  Or about ways to restrict hearing the drivers and if they say things in the heat of the moment and trying to get the team radio to portray a better image for F1.  There were some comments from Prost after that Monza weekend that had nothing to do with the technical/advice side of the radio and really confused me.  The advice/technical side does go a bit overboard at times but was never sure if that was the sole reason for why they wanted to change it.

 

I still don't really understand any of it.  Especially when they backflipped on it so quickly.  But overall I like team radio because it's one of the rare times the drivers are real and truly say what they think without trying to filter it, the same way they do in PC's.

 

A part of me would love to see them scrap team radio all together and be more like MotoGP where they are out there on their own and decide everything for themselves but in F1 this doesn't seem practical or possible for many different reasons.  I guess this way, it is the lesser of two evils.


Edited by HoldenRT, 26 November 2014 - 12:38.


#32 SirT

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Posted 26 November 2014 - 12:37

Regardless of how right or wrong this decision can be perceived, it's yet more evidence that the FIA should stop changing the rules mid-season. The rules and the tyre compounds should be set in stone prior to Melbourne, with the only exception being changes made for safety. They look like headless chickens.

 

Spot on.

 

As a Lewis fan though I am slightly dissapointed as I think this gives Rosberg a much better chance to win the WDC next year.


Edited by SirT, 26 November 2014 - 12:39.


#33 Spillage

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Posted 26 November 2014 - 12:43

Delighted about most of these rule changes, although in most cases the FIA is just undoing something stupid it already did.

 

In this case though, I'm not sure. Hearing these drivers - supposedly the best in the world - being given delta times, and being told they need to break five metres earlier for the corner - these things really wind me up. However, I fully accept the arguments of other posters that this rule was basically unenforceable. So I'd like to see them enforce it a different way - let's just ban telemetry and let them work out where they're losing time for themselves. Drivers can be told which sectors they're losing time in, but not which corners and certainly not exactly how they're losing that time.



#34 nosecone

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Posted 26 November 2014 - 12:47

F1's biggest problem unsolved again. FIA has just realised that freedom of speech is a good thing... which is something Kim Jong Un has yet to realise.7

 

 

Seriously, the rule was unenforceable. I hope FIA will sometime understand that ever more restrictions and limitations is not the way to go. Let them talk freely,  let them get support from their TEAM. Because yes, F1 is a team sport.



#35 peroa

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Posted 26 November 2014 - 12:49

F1's biggest problem unsolved again. FIA has just realised that freedom of speech is a good thing... which is something Kim Jong Un has yet to realise.7

 

 

Seriously, the rule was unenforceable. I hope FIA will sometime understand that ever more restrictions and limitations is not the way to go. Let them talk freely,  let them get support from their TEAM. Because yes, F1 is a team sport.

How come? It was perfectly enforceable for half a season. What will change during the winter that it'll become unenforceable?



#36 Buttoneer

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Posted 26 November 2014 - 12:58

I have always said the easiest way to control this is by banning radios on an F1 car, make the drivers responsible for operating the car instead of being coached by engineers and strategists, it devalues the sport, Nico Rosberg summed it up perfectly when he asked his engineer what he needs to do, response: drive as quick as you can.

 

And then we wonder why it is a series for rich kids and drivers sons, in short they are process operators.

Pay Symonds has said that if pit-car radio is banned then he would not want to send a car out on the circuit.  He considers it to be a safety issue and, if you consider all of the information which the driver needs to process, it very clearly is.

 

Spot on.

 

As a Lewis fan though I am slightly dissapointed as I think this gives Rosberg a much better chance to win the WDC next year.

"Nico, Lewis is making up time on you in turn 15" does not translate into better laptime.



#37 gribbli

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Posted 26 November 2014 - 13:03

How come? It was perfectly enforceable for half a season. What will change during the winter that it'll become unenforceable?

Sounds more like repeating the word unenforceable makes it true. Given the amount of times we heard teams say 'I cant give you that information' in the latter half of the season, the teams themselves clearly identified a line they werent going to cross.

 

We may very well have seen it enforced in an entirely inconsistent fashion, based more on being reactive to emotional highs and lows of the season, and that would be different to any other rule in F1 how exactly? Inconsistency in F1 is the norm not the exception, its just about whether rules are having an overall positive or negative effect, I personally cant imagine anyone claiming it was taking away from the sport.


Edited by gribbli, 26 November 2014 - 13:03.


#38 peroa

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Posted 26 November 2014 - 13:04

Pay Symonds has said that if pit-car radio is banned then he would not want to send a car out on the circuit.  He considers it to be a safety issue and, if you consider all of the information which the driver needs to process, it very clearly is.

 

"Nico, Lewis is making up time on you in turn 15" does not translate into better laptime.

We both know that Nico received pretty detailed info on how to drive the car in certain corners.

The max I would allow is "you are losing 3 tenths in S1 to x".

That's enough info for the best drivers in the world.



#39 nosecone

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Posted 26 November 2014 - 13:05

How come? It was perfectly enforceable for half a season. What will change during the winter that it'll become unenforceable?

I thought the 2015 radio restrictions were going to be a lot stricter than the current. The current rules only disallow sector time comparison to other drivers. In 2015 information about fuel and tyres had been banned, too. Or did i miss something?

 

And what is a possible panelty for saying too much?


Edited by nosecone, 26 November 2014 - 13:17.


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#40 RubalSher

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Posted 26 November 2014 - 13:06

At the very least, they should have left it as it is today. They had plans of bringing a greater deal in the ambit of this rule, but at the very least, they could have stuck to the rules as of today.



#41 OO7

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Posted 26 November 2014 - 13:06

Pay Symonds has said that if pit-car radio is banned then he would not want to send a car out on the circuit.  He considers it to be a safety issue and, if you consider all of the information which the driver needs to process, it very clearly is.

 

"Nico, Lewis is making up time on you in turn 15" does not translate into better laptime.

This is true.  However "Nico, Lewis is braking 8 metres later into turn 15" may do. :)

 

I don't have a problem with it as I don't believe it makes much difference.  It simply allows drivers to adjust their driving more quickly without popping back into their garages to study data, or receive spoken data from their engineers.  I think the proposals were too draconian in the first place.  If they had simply aimed to ban braking, steering and gear selection advice, I think most would find that pretty reasonable.


Edited by OO7, 26 November 2014 - 13:07.


#42 F1matt

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Posted 26 November 2014 - 13:07

Pay Symonds has said that if pit-car radio is banned then he would not want to send a car out on the circuit.  He considers it to be a safety issue and, if you consider all of the information which the driver needs to process, it very clearly is.

 

"Nico, Lewis is making up time on you in turn 15" does not translate into better laptime.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Pat Symonds has a vested interest, how else can he tell a driver to crash into a wall to allow his team leader to get a win.

 

 

Just because a driver has got used to radios doesn't mean he cant drive without one, we still have the flag system to warn drivers and the FIA could implement a light warning system on the dash.



#43 peroa

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Posted 26 November 2014 - 13:08

I thought the 2015 radio restrictions are a lot stricter than the current. The current rules only disallow sector time comparison to other drivers. In 2015 information about fuel and tyres were banned, too. Or did i miss something?

 

And what is a possible panelty for saying too much?

 

 

At the very least, they should have left it as it is today. They had plans of bringing a greater deal in the ambit of this rule, but at the very least, they could have stuck to the rules as of today.



#44 nosecone

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Posted 26 November 2014 - 13:19

Sorry peroa, of course the rules are scrapped now. I meant that the 2015 (the one proposed) were going to be a lot harder. Grammar sucks



#45 SanDiegoGo

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Posted 26 November 2014 - 14:13

I don't see why they've gone back, it was a good change. Nobody wants to hear Alonso and Vettel cry on the radio all race long. 

 

 

that was never an FIA issue. the whining is solely down to FOM selecting those snippets to the world feed. if FOM wanted to they could not air those horrible snippets to the audience. but they do because it's good tv. or the drivers could just keep it to themselves.

 

anyway, the cars are now too complicated for the drivers to manage alone, it seems. i would however like to see some driver aids taken away. the gear shift beeps and lights should be removed and the driver alone chooses when to shift.



#46 tkulla

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Posted 26 November 2014 - 14:18

Ridiculous. Driving an F1 car is simply too easy these days. I hate to see drivers as puppets, and I cringe every time an engineer gets on the radio to tell a driver how to drive.

 

I would ban the radio for everything except a car problem that is dangerous (and mandate a pitstop for every time it's used). 

 

Failing that, just restrict what the pits can say during sessions. For instance, they could reply "yes" or "no" and say "box this lap" and nothing else. Then the driver has to know what questions to ask in order to get useful info from the pits.



#47 Vibe

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Posted 26 November 2014 - 14:18

I don't see why they've gone back, it was a good change. Nobody wants to hear Alonso and Vettel cry on the radio all race long. 

I sometimes read radio transcripts,and if there's something I noticed it's that Alonso is one of the drivers who minimize radio use.Most of the time he doesn't even reply to Stella...



#48 peroa

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Posted 26 November 2014 - 14:37

I sometimes read radio transcripts,and if there's something I noticed it's that Alonso is one of the drivers who minimize radio use.Most of the time he doesn't even reply to Stella...

The radio transcript you read is just what is being broadcasted by FOM, it's not all of the communication that happens during a race



#49 RealRacing

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Posted 26 November 2014 - 14:57

The problem IMO is that the rule, the way it was conceived,  is unenforceable but that doesn't mean there could be other ways to avoid "coaching" (if that was the real reason for the ban) or other unwanted instructions. The "not-enforceable" argument is lazy, same as with TOs. There are ways to enforce the radio rule, simplest of which would be to cut comm entirely. However, the reason for the driver guidance goes beyond simpe radio comm; it is a product of the too stringent limits of fuel and tyres and all the rest of technical elements. These are actually turning the driver into more of a technology manager than a racing pilot and F1 races more into semi-radio controlled glorified car tests than a test o a driver's talent. Everything's possible if the underlying objectives are clear. 



#50 ocp

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Posted 26 November 2014 - 15:15

Well, it is a shame. Slowly losing interest but not there yet.