22 replies to this topic

[Allan Lupton]

A well-known motto was "Simplicate and add more Lightness" and we need not debate who said that first. I'll offer a spot of follow-up, just for fun:

 

I think the wartime story in German aviation was "If a Messerschmitt crashes, Willy Messerschmit finds out what didn't break and makes it lighter; if a Focke-Wulf crashes, Kurt Tank finds out what broke and makes it stronger."

 

Since this is a motoring forum, can I suggest there must be a parallel comparison in Grand Prix car design and designers, and invite suggestions for who were/are the equivalent of that aspect of Messerschmitt and Tank.

[Tim Murray]

Some fellow TNFers and I were privileged last night to attend a wonderfully entertaining talk by Dave Brodie to Club Lotus Avon. He told us some great stories, including this one about Colin Chapman – apologies if it’s been told here before. Brodie had gone up to Hethel with Ronnie Peterson for the first shake-down runs of the Lotus 76. Ronnie had done a few gentle runs around the track when Colin Chapman drove up. He asked a few questions, then told Ronnie to accelerate up to a decent speed, then brake as hard as he could when he reached a particular oil drum beside the track.

Ronnie accelerated, got to the oil drum, braked, both front wheels collapsed inward and the car skated noisily to a halt on its undertray. Ronnie was somewhat shaken by this, so much so that he drove home in a very subdued manner, until Brodie suggested to him that at their current rate of progress they wouldn’t be home before Christmas.

Chapman, however, was entirely unmoved. He studied the car for a few minutes, then summoned Ralph Bellamy. ‘Make those wishbones one gauge thicker’, he instructed, then drove off.

Edited by Tim Murray, 03 December 2014 - 16:37.

[Doug Nye]

Easy answers to original question would be ACBC and WOB...

NCD

[BRG]

I'd say the Focke-Wulf approach was by Williams trying to make a car that was Alan Jones-proof.  It paid dividends because later it was Nigel Mansell-proof too.

[Lee Nicolle]

Some fellow TNFers and I were privileged last night to attend a wonderfully entertaining talk by Dave Brodie to Club Lotus Avon. He told us some great stories, including this one about Colin Chapman – apologies if it’s been told here before. Brodie had gone up to Hethel with Ronnie Peterson for the first shake-down runs of the Lotus 76. Ronnie had done a few gentle runs around the track when Colin Chapman drove up. He asked a few questions, then told Ronnie to accelerate up to a decent speed, then brake as hard as he could when he reached a particular oil drum beside the track.

Ronnie accelerated, got to the oil drum, braked, both front wheels collapsed inward and the car skated noisily to a halt on its undertray. Ronnie was somewhat shaken by this, so much so that he drove home in a very subdued manner, until Brodie suggested to him that at their current rate of progress they wouldn’t be home before Christmas.

Chapman, however, was entirely unmoved. He studied the car for a few minutes, then summoned Ralph Bellamy. ‘Make those wishbones one gauge thicker’, he instructed, then drove off.

Chapmans plan reputedly was to make a car that crossed the finish line then fell to pieces. There is many such stories around.

[D-Type]

Ferrari employed Willy Mairesse as test driver on the principle that if Willy couldn't break it then nobody would.

[LittleChris]

Ronnie accelerated, got to the oil drum, braked, both front wheels collapsed inward and the car skated noisily to a halt on its undertray.

 

Shades of Torro Rosso a couple of years ago in China. At least the Lotus wheels stayed partially attached

[Charlieman]

Easy answers to original question would be ACBC and WOB...

NCD

I didn't get the joke. Sorry.

 

William Bushnell Stout, an American name if I ever heard one, is also associated with the expression on adding lightness. He was the bloke who designed the Ford Trimotor. According to that most accurate of sources, Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia...._Bushnell_Stout), an associate Gordon Hooton came up with it. Wikipedia cites "Ludvigsen, 2010" as the source. Presumably Colin Chapman: Inside the Innovator.

[racinggeek]

Doug, no comment on the thread title? I'd think "adding lightness" would be something for the old "Blood pressure!" thread 

 

That said, here in America, Fred and Augie Duesenberg were renowned for their efforts toward making their race cars and passenger cars as light as possible for that time. Seem to recall author Roger Huntington noting that the Duesey Indy cars of the 1920s had, at various times, holes drilled in the frames, wood planks running the length of the rails to replace metal (less weight while offering some stiffness) and other tricks. Huntington also noted one of the brothers wrote a paper for the SAE on the benefits of lighter cars, using test results from the race cars as his proof. However, I don't know that the Duesenbergs took weight-saving to the extremes that Chapman did 30-40 years later.

Edited by racinggeek, 04 December 2014 - 21:38.

[JtP2]

It has been alleged that it was only Mansell proof after data logging transferred the gauges to the pit wall.

[Roger Clark]

To me, the Gordinis of the 40s and 50s always looked lightweight and simple to the point of fragility, even by Lotus standards.  The Lancia D50 was another example of simplicity to add lightness, by the standards of the time.  You might think that Mercedes and Mercedes-Benz racing cars, prior to 1955, were the antithesis of the motto, yet they went to extreme lengths to save weight on the 750kg cars.  Their rivals at Auto-Union didn't have to go to the same lengths because of a much simpler basic design.  Before WW1, the cars built to the 1000kg formula needed extreme measures to save weight, though a 14-litre engine isn't a good start.

[D-Type]

Have the weights of grand prix cars ever been published?  i would expect the lightest to be DB, Lotus 18, Gordini, Lotus 12 and Cooper T43 but not necessarily in that order.  I have not included Harry Schell's Cooper-JAP as it was really a F2 car (at a pinch).

[Roger Clark]

I have never seen figures for weights of Grand Prix cars that I regard as 100% reliable, but for what it's worth, here is a selection:

 

Pomeroy, The Grand Prix Car vol 2, laden weight quoted in cwt:

1947 Alfa Romeo 19.5cwt (2,184lbs)

1950 Alfa Romeo 20.5cwt (2,296lbs)

1951 Alfa Romeo 21.5cwt (2,408lbs)

1949 Ferrari 17cwt (1,904lbs)

1951 Ferrari 20.5cwt (2,296lbs)

1952 Ferrari 16cwt 1,792lbs)

1953 BRM 20cwt (2,240lbs)

1953 Maserati 16cwt (1,792lbs)

 

Setright, The Grand Prix Car Vol3,  unladen and starting line weight, quoted in lbs

W196 unladed weight 1,430lbs (medium wheelbase, 1,540lbs (streamlined), starting line weight (he doesn't say which variant!) 2,000lbs

Maserati 250F (1954) unladen 1,300lbs, starting line 1,850lbs

Maserati 250F (1957) unladen 1,290lbs, starting line 1,800lbs

Ferrari 555 Unladen 1,400lbs, starting line 1,900lbs

Vanwall (1958) unladen 1,400lbs, Starting line 1,800lbs

Ferrari Dino 246 (1958) unladen 1,220lbs, starting line 1,680lbs

BRM 25 (1959) unladen 1,520lbs, starting line 1,900lbs)

Cooper (1959) unladen 1,150lbs, starting line 1,500lbs

Lotus 18 (1960) unladen 980lbs, starting line 1,325lbs

 

Robert Jarraud (Les Gordinis) quotes the following (all in kg, "Poids de la Voiture a Vide" which I think is similar to British unladen weight)

Type 15 428kg (941lbs)

Type 15C 465kg (1,023lbs)

Type 20 644kg (1,416lbs)

Type 32 721kg (1,586lbs)

 

Ian H Smith (Lotus, The Story of the Marque), quotes an estimated dry weight 0f 620lbs for the 12.  

 

Caveat emptor.

Edited by Roger Clark, 07 December 2014 - 15:56.

[D-Type]

I should have looked on my bookshelves

 

In Cooper Cars Doug Nye quotes a BRM report from 1960 on a 1958 F2 Cooper.  This gives the weight as 922lbs  (419kg) with oil and water but less gearbox. 

He also gives the weight of the Mk 2 Cooper-Bristol as 9¹/₄ cwt which is 1036lbs. (470kg)

[mariner]

I dont know who said " simplicate and and lightness " first, certainly it seems to be attributed to Chapman in motor racing..
 

 

I think the real point of the comment isnt the "lightness " bit its the "simplicate" part. Drilling holes all over a chassis may save weight but I don't think its "simplicate and addling lightness"

 

A more accurate example is the use by Lotus of one bolt to hold the rear top link, spring/damper top and the anti roll bar on to the chassis.

 

To avoid always crediting Chapman with everything the front strut suspension on Fords would be another example of saving weight by " simplicating"

Edited by mariner, 07 December 2014 - 18:42.

[Doug Nye]

I believe that Pomeroy attributed "simplicate and add lightness" to Louis Coatalen of Sunbeam?

And for those who don't understand, ACBC are the initials of Colin Chapman - WOB of Walter Owen Bentley, who did his fair share of simplicating, while adding precious little lightness...

DCN

[Vitesse2]

 WOB of Walter Owen Bentley, who did his fair share of simplicating, while adding precious little lightness...

DCN

... except to the 1939 V12 Lagondas for Le Mans. I'm not sure how much design input WO had, but the finished cars were reputedly two hundredweight lighter than the standard bare chassis.

[GMACKIE]

"Simplicate and add more Lightness"......Dr Ferdinand Porsche springs to mind.

[Lee Nicolle]

I dont know who said " simplicate and and lightness " first, certainly it seems to be attributed to Chapman in motor racing..
 

 

I think the real point of the comment isnt the "lightness " bit its the "simplicate" part. Drilling holes all over a chassis may save weight but I don't think its "simplicate and addling lightness"

 

A more accurate example is the use by Lotus of one bolt to hold the rear top link, spring/damper top and the anti roll bar on to the chassis.

 

To avoid always crediting Chapman with everything the front strut suspension on Fords would be another example of saving weight by " simplicating"

Simplicity without duplication is the best way to save weight. IF the one bolt will take the load of three things go for it. Though sometimes people get carried away!

Personally I have sat in the shed for hours trying to work out things like this. Then spend an hour fabricating. But ease of maintenance and accesability weighs more on my mind. Often designers do not think about practability. Or they design their bit great but the next designers job precludes access. This ofcourse more on road cars than race.

 

On my old Sports Sedan the 2001 rules effectivly made it uncompetitive at National level as it was well over a 100k too light. The consensus was you could not build a car so light. Clearly an error as my 6 litre mostly steel bodied car was 920 kilo. With room for another 30-40k to go. Simple stuff like lighter and more powerfull starter, alloy waterpump, lighter rear rotors, possibly get rid of the very heavy steel bellhousing [though a nice safe thing and does not flex like an alloy one], ideally alloy shocks and etc.

The K&A built cars weighed even less than mine. So Tony Ricciardello is doing a better job these days in a car 120k heavier.

Though these weights it seem include air jacks and the like. Totally unessential on a Sports Sedan.

So now those cars to me are iron junkies! 

[DavidI]

Simplicity without duplication is the best way to save weight. IF the one bolt will take the load of three things go for it. Though sometimes people get carried away!

Personally I have sat in the shed for hours trying to work out things like this. Then spend an hour fabricating. But ease of maintenance and accesability weighs more on my mind. Often designers do not think about practability. Or they design their bit great but the next designers job precludes access. This ofcourse more on road cars than race.

 

On my old Sports Sedan the 2001 rules effectivly made it uncompetitive at National level as it was well over a 100k too light. The consensus was you could not build a car so light. Clearly an error as my 6 litre mostly steel bodied car was 920 kilo. With room for another 30-40k to go. Simple stuff like lighter and more powerfull starter, alloy waterpump, lighter rear rotors, possibly get rid of the very heavy steel bellhousing [though a nice safe thing and does not flex like an alloy one], ideally alloy shocks and etc.

The K&A built cars weighed even less than mine. So Tony Ricciardello is doing a better job these days in a car 120k heavier.

Though these weights it seem include air jacks and the like. Totally unessential on a Sports Sedan.

So now those cars to me are iron junkies! 

In European open wheeler racing in the 80's RALTs were dominant, not only for their performance but because you could actually work on them - Ron Tauranac being a practical man. When Reynard showed up they were harder to work on because they didn't compromise performance for the sake of accessibility - but everyone had to get them because they were faster.

 

I agree about air jacks on sports sedans  - why install them (with all the extra complexity of air lines etc) in a category with no pit stops? Surely using a mechanical jack in the paddock is not that difficult ........

[Terry Walker]

It seems to have originated with one of Stout's employees, one Hooton, and it became Stout's credo. Later adopted by others.

 

I once thought it might have come from Henry Ford, You'd have to search hard to finder a simpler, lighter car than the T Ford, and Henry had a long record of endlessly simplifying and lightening even that car. But apparently not.

[Ray Bell]

Ford was definitely seeking lightness, as far as he could, with the K-model...

This was the 6-cylinder car his backers insisted he had to build. He wanted to build cars for the masses and they wanted to build expensive cars, and when they forced his hand he designed it to be as light as he could.

The chassis ended at the back axle or therabouts, the rear bodywork was supported by the door, which when shut had a pin arrangement to give support to the rear body. Due to the need to lighten the crank he changed the firing order to help the crank bear that stress, but when the flexing of the front of the chassis twisted the crankcase so that at walking speeds the engine would lock up you could see some flaws in his ideals.

[Lee Nicolle]

In European open wheeler racing in the 80's RALTs were dominant, not only for their performance but because you could actually work on them - Ron Tauranac being a practical man. When Reynard showed up they were harder to work on because they didn't compromise performance for the sake of accessibility - but everyone had to get them because they were faster.

 

I agree about air jacks on sports sedans  - why install them (with all the extra complexity of air lines etc) in a category with no pit stops? Surely using a mechanical jack in the paddock is not that difficult ........

Realistically tin tops in general do not need airjacks on the car. The 70s proved that. Nor the mechanically inferior centre lock wheels either. One jack and max 2 rattle guns per car. look at Nascar. But even better than that a control generic workshop rattle gun.allocate them at the start of the meeting!! 30-45 sec stops and no wheels falling off as happens on more than occasion! And no air jacks dragging as they often do. And save about $10k per team.