72 replies to this topic

[hiddenpace]

Any F1 year before Pirelli and DRS

Edited by hiddenpace, 05 December 2014 - 08:45.

[jimmonson]

I've already posted this a couple of times over the years but it fits the bill so:

 

I reckon one's definition of "the golden age of motor racing" probably correlates pretty closely to when one started watching and following motor racing. For me that was the early 1960s so, as far as I am concerned, that decade is the golden age. I never saw Nuvolari, Fangio or Moss race but I did see Jim Clark, Dan Gurney, Graham Hill, John Surtees and Jackie Stewart (to name but a few) and in the cases of Clark and Hill, I was able to see them race three different types of car (F1, sports cars and saloons) on a single day at a circuit that I could get to on my bicycle and at a price I could afford from my paper-round earnings. It was also a decade of great variety and innovation in car and engine design - not only in Formula 1 but also sports cars and at the Indy 500.

  

 Great Post Amphicar,

 

  I am a bit older and do remember Fangio (the man was a legend) in his prime (just) as a young lad . Stirling Moss's name became a phrase denoting fast driving , I seem to remember Stirling's cars often breaking down , he did seem to flog them very hard . Remember the crash that nearly killed him in 1962 , left him in a coma for a week and ended his  racing career.  Amazing driver who won many races but never the title .         ( sorry I forgot to mention the first Champion from Britain Mike Hawthorn )

 

 The 1960's really were an amazing "Golden Age" of racing .  My teenage/young man years and that decade really was packed with talent and exciting racing and car development.  Britain was producing a wealth of F1 champions in those days . As you say , the likes of Jim Clark , Graham Hill  Jackie Stewart were great champions. Yes and John Surtees still the only World Champion on 2 wheels as well as 4 !

  But of them all I felt Jim Clark outstanding and was my favourite driver back then .  His death came as a big shock to all as he was so good , but a stark reminder to us all (drivers as well ) that even the best are still mortal. His death left us wanting to have seen many more wins from him , but sadly , not to be .

 

  You can never compare the drivers of the 50's and 60's with recent or current drivers , because of the deathtraps those guys were racing in .  As a child, death is not fully understood , its impact not registered somehow as it is when older and (hopefully) wiser . But looking back to those days now , it looked an horrific sport , one where its participants often lost their lives .  So from that point of view at least, now we are in a better "Golden Age" today as things really are so much safer.  

Edited by jimmonson, 05 December 2014 - 22:48.

[Amphicar]

Thanks jimmonson - as I've indicated in a later post, I recognise that there were downsides to my golden era. I identified the chronic unreliability of the cars (particularly in the early years of the 3 litre F1 formula) but the horrific death rate is certainly another. I agree that Jim Clark was outstanding and his death came as a huge shock to me too - especially as 7 April 1968 was my eighteenth birthday.

[redraven9]

Chariot racing 125–50 BC before Julius Caesar rebuilt the Circus Maximus. In the Byzantine era 750–775 AD under Constantine V wasn't bad, but never really matched the Roman golden era.

LOL

[AlexLangheck]

When I read that headline I was excited, but the fact is it's still not true.
 
It's a mess. You've got WTCC doing its own thing, TC3 which seems to be something that could rival it but isn't allowed World Championship status, STCC running those weird Solution F silhouette things, NGTC, DTM only being a touring car in name, because they're really not, and V8 Supercars as well.
 
If I had my way, every touring car championship would conform to the 2017 V8 (or not) Supercars rules. That seems like a common sense platform, but there are far too many politics involved these days that we'll probably never see something like Super Touring again, where pretty much every touring car series on the planet ran to those regs.

Which is why I wouldnt have a World Championship for Touring cars. For me, a WC should be the best drivers, best cars and best tracks - I'm not sure that applies to the WTCC. And depending were you live in the world - ask what is a Touring car? And you'll get a different answer.

[Risil]

Which is why I wouldnt have a World Championship for Touring cars. For me, a WC should be the best drivers, best cars and best tracks - I'm not sure that applies to the WTCC. And depending were you live in the world - ask what is a Touring car? And you'll get a different answer.

 

And we haven't even mentioned the USA!

Edited by Risil, 06 December 2014 - 12:40.

[mkoscevic]

I reckon one's definition of "the golden age of motor racing" probably correlates pretty closely to when one started watching and following motor racing.

 

Great point and very true. My favorite period are late 90s and early 00s. Epic battles of Schumacher and Hakkinen. Ever lasting competition between Ferrari and McLaren. Yellow Jordan. Green Jaguar. Williams-BMW power in early 00s. You find a lot of things for yourself to love in whatever era.

 

[PlatenGlass]

I grew up watching F1 in the 80s so obviously I'm biased in this, but I have also relatively recently watched much of the BBC coverage from 1979 onwards. I think the racing was generally very good around then, and I'd pick around 1979-1985. It might seem odd to stop just before 1986, which was supposed to be one of the best years, but actually I think the races themselves weren't always that great, even if the championship ended up close. From 1979-1985, there wasn't much domination. Ferrari finished 1-2 in 1979, but Ligier started the strongest, Williams were the best for much of the year, and Renault had their moments. In 1985, Prost ended up winning quite easily in the end, but he only won five races (six if you include San Marino where he was disqualified), and the races were generally open. The McLaren was the best because it was consistent and reliable, but it often wasn't the fastest so we had good racing. The individual races weren't normally dominant. 1984 was the major exception in this period for domination.

But for me, 1986 was when domination from a small number of teams, often one at a time, started to take hold more generally, and this has mostly lasted until the present day. Although Prost won in 1986, the Williamses were sometimes light years ahead, and we saw the same in 1987. 1988 is another supposedly classic year because of Prost/Senna, but I don't think there really was that much close racing between them. 1989 even less so, when Senna was largely dominant when he wasn't retiring. We also had the "no overtaking" era, which came in around the 90s, and it took the artificial DRS to end that.

We've obviously had periods of good competitiveness since my chosen era, and if I had to bet on statistics, I'd say that the second half of 2009 was probably when the whole field was objectively the tightest that we've ever had, and 2010 was a very close championship right after. But it was still part of the no overtaking era. Even more recently 2012 was a good championship too obviously. I think this year has been very good in many respects, but Mercedes have still dominated, and we'll have to see how this "era" progresses.

[purplehaireddolphin]

F1 between 83 and 88, the turbo champs:

 

Piquet, Lauda, Prost, Senna. Who, not coincidently, all won titles under different engine regulations/configurations. Senna aside, all won titles for different teams.

For drivers, yes. Piquet, Prost, Senna not forgetting Mansell, add into the mix drivers like Berger who on his day could just about match the top drivers and you've got a field which would be hard to beat. But in terms of racing, I don't think there's ever been a "golden age" as such. There have always been good races and bad races, races where the lead has been fought over until the last lap and races where the winner has been 20 - 30 seconds ahead. 

 

Whichever era you think about, if we've had 30-40% of races which have been close then it's been a good season

[phoenix101]

Group B and Group C were both amazing formulas that excited manufacturers, drivers, and fans. It's a shame the Group B supercar regulations never took off.

 

Group A Rally Cars were solid

Group 5 Sports Cars - the 5L era that spawned the 917 and 512

Group 4 Sports Cars were awesome throughout

Group 3 GT cars from 1957-1969

DTM Group A - before the ITC and Bernie killed the series

F1 - 80s and early 90s

Can-Am/Group 7 Sports Cars 1966-1975

NASCAR in the 80s and early 90s

JGTC during the early years, immortalized by Gran Turismo for PS

IMSA GTO (GTP was poor-man's Group C)

 

 

[Mekola]

About Argentine motorsport:

Mecanica Argentina F1: 1967-1979

Mecanica Argentina F2: 1979-1982

Formula 2 Codasur: 1982-1986

Formula 3 Sudamericana: 1987-1999 (when it was truly Sudam).

Argentine Sport Prototipo: 1969-1972

Turismo Carretera: 1967-1971

TC2000: 1982-1996 and 1997-2008

Edited by Mekola, 07 December 2014 - 19:12.

[SeanValen]

F1 has to be: Senna-Prost-Schumacher years. 1984-2000.

 

DTM: 1990s.... BTCC: 1990s.  

 

 

Combination of great drivers and rules that you didn't have to think about changing. I think when we got into 2003-and qualifying one lap came in, I've never seen a sport change so much, it started a trend of changing tradtional rules in the sport, it never felt right and still does not. You can understand a tennis racket can only change so much, but you say add 3 nets to a tennis court or add a extra line to make the court and size smaller. The cars changing is enough, these are big changes that made qualifying totally different, then fuel laps etc.

 

Going flat out, not having to worry about tyres too much, or the engine, f1 worrying about money and cost saving got in the way, the shameless rich and we'll do anything for the ultimate lap and speed went away, everything on the limit, that era seems lost. Oh and the engine sounds, things we took for granted, now gone, it's ashame we had to out live it, felt like it was going to go on always and always.

 

 

Also although many drivers have died in f1, I think for f1 now and since 1994 Imola, everything before Imola 1994 was just a different world, there was  not a black marker on the sport until then for some time, in the same way Crickett recently had a death because of a freak occurance, it's those black days that leave a impression of this can happen, so we'll think about it now, before 1994 Imola, we didn't have to think about it, and luck was on our side, the fact the drivers head will never really be protected until cockpits are closed, the possibilities is out there, and looking at Jules crash this year, and I remember the wheel getting close to Schumacher's head at Abu Dhabi 2011, these situaitons are there to ponder about, which I wish weren't, but thus f1 will change again.

Edited by SeanValen, 07 December 2014 - 19:55.

[John B]

For an overall racing fan, mid-1980s to early 1990s was pretty good. During that time there was the F1 turbo era, the personalities Prost, Senna, et al., and tracks like Austria, Zaandvoort, Kyalami. CART had good races, different drivers rising up in different years, and a run of safety. NASCAR had names like Earnhardt, Waltrip, Elliott, and Wallace trading championships and major wins, the million dollar bonus races, and distinctive, brand identity in cars - you could look forward to new, evolving machines at Daytona each February. US sports cars was pretty cool also with the Porsches, Nissans, etc, and there was also the Trans-Am series.

 

The lack of gimmick points systems and regular penalties for racing accidents in many series certainly doesn't hurt either. I realize things often seem better retroactively but can't see looking back at recent years in the same light.

[Afterburner]

For racing in general, I'd say mid-1980's to mid-1990's is certainly up there. Once--if -ever--the current 'downsizing' trend stops, I think we'll be happier. You get the feeling nobody wants to push any limits any more.

[ezequiel]

About Argentine motorsport:

Mecanica Argentina F1: 1967-1979

Mecanica Argentina F2: 1979-1982

Formula 2 Codasur: 1982-1986

Formula 3 Sudamericana: 1987-1999 (when it was truly Sudam).

Argentine Sport Prototipo: 1969-1972

Turismo Carretera: 1967-1971

TC2000: 1982-1996 and 1997-2008

 

I would love it if we have something like the good old Sport Prototipo this days. But the rulers of Argentine motor racing seem not to care anymore about sport and engineering and the audience, just look at what they have done to TC2000...

[Cozzie]

F1 between 76-00 especially 86-91. 

With honorable mention to 2006-2008

 

The 'sport' now is a mere envious shadow of it's former past.

Edited by Cozzie, 09 December 2014 - 12:50.

[alframsey]

No such thing as a golden era in my opinion, only rose tinted specs.

[Collombin]

No such thing as a golden era in my opinion, only rose tinted specs.

That's SO Racing Comments!

I would believe you more if your username was Steve McClaren.

[aportinga]

 

CART was pretty much fantastic from the later eighties on until the fatal split after 1995 - the Eurosport years for me. 

 

 

This is the first thing that popped into my mind. As a whole the CART product was very well rounded. It had a great mix of different driving formats and serious talent. had the big sponsors, manufactures and plenty of good teams.

 

I frankly do not think any series was more interesting during one window of time then CART was.

 

F1 was great as well but in much shorter bursts - less then what I would consider an "era" IMO.

[FerrariV12]

No such thing as a golden era in my opinion, only rose tinted specs.

 

Nothing personal (in fact quite the opposite of personal since you're far from the first as I'm about to explain) but this line always gets trotted out in discussions like this. Yes, in some ways the "good old days" weren't that good in some aspects - safety, TV coverage (try and find a full-length live broadcast, with English commentary, from a 1950, 60s, even early 70s Grand Prix - in fact if anyone does and manages to prove me wrong and can point me in that direction I'll owe them a crate of beer and my eternal thanks).

 

But newer doesn't automatically equal better either, it's all opinions and arseholes but for a not insignificant portion of fans, some aspects of previous eras - exciting technology, larger/higher-quality fields, simpler rules, epic rivalries, etc. etc. etc. take your pick, genuinely made it more enjoyable than the present. I'll watch a recording of an F1 race from the early 90s and its still as good as I remember it, I'll watch one of Sky F1's "classic" races from 2011-12 and I'll still find it a bit cack.

 

As I mentioned in my earlier post, when it comes to sportscars and a world championship, it's never been better in my 23 years following the sport, because I genuinely think that, I'm not getting 'rose tinted glasses' about 15 car FIASCC fields or Audi smashing Cadillac and a bunch of privateers at Le Mans. Unfortunately I cannot share the same sentiments about other branches of the sport.

 

I'll throw in IndyCar of recent years being stronger than at any time, if not post-split, then post CART's circa-millennium implosion as well.

Edited by FerrariV12, 09 December 2014 - 17:55.

[sjakie]

it is true that you intend to view the years you started watching as the golden years. I started in 81/82 and i indeed loved F1 from 82 till 97. After that I can't really be bothered about F1

 

I started watching Group C around 1986 and I really loved the second half of the eighties in group C. Once the races were shortened, and atmo's were getting al sorts of artificial advantages (the first 10 starting spots reserved for atmo's, remember?) it turned into F1 with a roof....

 

Since Peugeot challenged Audi at Le Mans my interest in sportscar racing is renewed. Sportscar racing is blossoming right now so let's hope the ACO keep the Bernies and Maxes away with their false promises. 

 

CART was fantastic form the mid eighties until 1995. In a way it had the momentum to go on after the Indy 500 was lost, thanks to characters like Alex Zanardi, Greg Moore, Michael Andretti and Paul Tracy, but by 1999 the inspiration had gone. With the adoption of aero kits Indycar may have a chance to enter another golden era but they will have to get a stable schedule, good oval events and a fair share of Americans in the field.

[Dunc]

F1 - The period from 1992-96, when I started watching and from 2006 until now.  In both cases there was close competition and even though some seasons weren't classics, the good outdid the bad for the most part.

 

BTCC - The 1990s era of Cleland etc.  I still watch it now but not with the same degree of interest.

 

WEC - I've only really got into this recently but it does seem to be going through a good period.

 

Rallying - The McRae era, similar to the BTCC, I still follow it but I wouldn't go out of my way to watch stuff now.

 

I think age does play a big part in things.  When I first got into motorsport I was a pre-teenage child.  It was one of my main interests, I was old enough to follow it closely and it could consume my life, which probably accounts for me thinking the 92-96 era is a bit of a golden age.  Then I hit puberty and, while I retained some interest, I was more concerned with parties, getting drunk and chasing women.  My interest revived after I started working and following motorsport is now one of my main pastimes.

[PlatenGlass]

I grew up watching F1 in the 80s so obviously I'm biased in this, but I have also relatively recently watched much of the BBC coverage from 1979 onwards. I think the racing was generally very good around then, and I'd pick around 1979-1985. It might seem odd to stop just before 1986, which was supposed to be one of the best years, but actually I think the races themselves weren't always that great, even if the championship ended up close. From 1979-1985, there wasn't much domination. Ferrari finished 1-2 in 1979, but Ligier started the strongest, Williams were the best for much of the year, and Renault had their moments. In 1985, Prost ended up winning quite easily in the end, but he only won five races (six if you include San Marino where he was disqualified), and the races were generally open. The McLaren was the best because it was consistent and reliable, but it often wasn't the fastest so we had good racing. The individual races weren't normally dominant. 1984 was the major exception in this period for domination.

But for me, 1986 was when domination from a small number of teams, often one at a time, started to take hold more generally, and this has mostly lasted until the present day. Although Prost won in 1986, the Williamses were sometimes light years ahead, and we saw the same in 1987. 1988 is another supposedly classic year because of Prost/Senna, but I don't think there really was that much close racing between them. 1989 even less so, when Senna was largely dominant when he wasn't retiring. We also had the "no overtaking" era, which came in around the 90s, and it took the artificial DRS to end that.

We've obviously had periods of good competitiveness since my chosen era, and if I had to bet on statistics, I'd say that the second half of 2009 was probably when the whole field was objectively the tightest that we've ever had, and 2010 was a very close championship right after. But it was still part of the no overtaking era. Even more recently 2012 was a good championship too obviously. I think this year has been very good in many respects, but Mercedes have still dominated, and we'll have to see how this "era" progresses.

I might have been a bit harsh to stop before 1986 and 1987 - the two main Prost/Senna/Mansell/Piquet years. But if I included them, I'd still say there was a definite drop off from 1988.