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Tombazis and Fry are leaving Ferrari


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#251 EthanM

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Posted 18 December 2014 - 13:49

This is true but a tough ask. For it is very difficult to get people to be willing to take risks and not fear failure when they've just seen you fire rafts of people for failing. Of course the chairman can say 'those people were fired because they failed because they weren't bold enough not because they were too bold' but I'm not sure it's a distinction I'd care about.

Not saying they were necessarily wrong to get rid of some of those people because it's clear change had to happen, just that I think it is going to make producing a team that takes genuine risks that much harder to achieve.

 

These things generally get bundled in a "turn over a new page" type package, and that's what you are using to attract the big divas, the opportunity for them to be the ones to frame the new structure



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#252 ViMaMo

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Posted 18 December 2014 - 15:01

This is true but a tough ask. For it is very difficult to get people to be willing to take risks and not fear failure when they've just seen you fire rafts of people for failing. Of course the chairman can say 'those people were fired because they failed because they weren't bold enough not because they were too bold' but I'm not sure it's a distinction I'd care about.

Not saying they were necessarily wrong to get rid of some of those people because it's clear change had to happen, just that I think it is going to make producing a team that takes genuine risks that much harder to achieve.

 

I said these thinking about Red Bull in the back of my mind. Ppl in the lower rungs cannot push for such extremes in designs unless there is support and direction from the top. Its this or Newey is some sort of god who has all the ideas. There might have not been this kind of atmosphere at Ferrari hence some come across as conservative (they need to be driven).

Anyway lets see what the new set of people can do.

 

 

I swear I've heard the 'we need to innovate and take risks' mantra from Ferrari before too. Wasn't their big move to pullrod front suspension for the F2012 based on a desire to innovate?

 

Pull rod was not exactly a success. Not too many ideas came through though.


Edited by ViMaMo, 18 December 2014 - 15:03.


#253 Timstr11

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Posted 18 December 2014 - 18:56

BBC says Jock Clear to take on track-side engineering as expected (part of what was Fry's remit):

http://www.bbc.com/s...rmula1/30541422


Edited by Timstr11, 18 December 2014 - 18:56.


#254 Francesc

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Posted 18 December 2014 - 19:53

But he will have to wait one year before he can take that position

http://joesaward.wor...for-jock-clear/



#255 hollowstar

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Posted 18 December 2014 - 20:09

But he will have to wait one year before he can take that position
http://joesaward.wor...for-jock-clear/


Most likely they will reach an agreement for him to join by next summer...

#256 FullWets

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Posted 18 December 2014 - 21:52

:rotfl: iT's why Allison have full power now :rolleyes:

 

So now, if an Italian sign for Ferrari its just politics. Pat Fry was Italian ? Tombazis was italian ? Neil Martin was italian ? It's just ridiculous.

Sadly Allison can be the next on the line, given the strategy they are following. Do you think Pat Fry, Neil Martin or Hamashima are incompetent people, or rather have taken the blame for some other people's faults? Back in 2008 Costa reported requested a new wind tunnel and management rejected the idea. Now in 2014, Brawn reportedly turned Ferrari's offer down because they weren't giving him control of the team he was supposed to lead... do you really thing that the underlying management politics are changing in Ferrari? I think not. Nevertheless, next year will show if you are right and Allison is given the tools he needs and an interference-free authority over the team. I'm not very optimistic about that



#257 Massa

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Posted 18 December 2014 - 22:15

Sadly Allison can be the next on the line, given the strategy they are following. Do you think Pat Fry, Neil Martin or Hamashima are incompetent people, or rather have taken the blame for some other people's faults? Back in 2008 Costa reported requested a new wind tunnel and management rejected the idea. Now in 2014, Brawn reportedly turned Ferrari's offer down because they weren't giving him control of the team he was supposed to lead... do you really thing that the underlying management politics are changing in Ferrari? I think not. Nevertheless, next year will show if you are right and Allison is given the tools he needs and an interference-free authority over the team. I'm not very optimistic about that

 

How do you know it's not their fault ? You don't know because you are not in the team. If Ferrari sack them after 4 years in the team it's because they underperform. It's simple as that. For example, i'm yet to see what Hamashima have done during these years.. He was Mr Tyres at Ferrari and each years Ferrari cars have problem to use the tyres. Each years !

Pat Fry what did he bring to the table ? He was director of the chassis for the 2012 and 2013 cars.

Tombazis was chief designer, his cars were failures.

 

Why Ferrari have to keep them ? It was failure after failure with them.

 

The strategy they are following is get rid of the past and start a new era. Like when LDM choose Todt twenty years ago.

 

Allison is a key part of this new era. He will not be fired. Next year cars will be his first car at Ferrari. Fry, Tombazis etc... had 4 chances ( 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015 ), the first three were failure, and rumors are saying the next one will be even worse.



#258 bogi

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Posted 18 December 2014 - 22:18

But he will have to wait one year before he can take that position

http://joesaward.wor...for-jock-clear/

 

FIA needs to do something about that, one year long gardenin leave is too much. Six months should be enough.



#259 as65p

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Posted 19 December 2014 - 05:56

Lol, Too bad the alo vs kimi topic is closed.

 

We could always do an "Alonso vs. Raikkönen 2014 – The Seasons Review" thread.

 

<duck>

 

 ;)



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#260 Gilles4Ever

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Posted 19 December 2014 - 06:12

some rumors on #Bell says it has already signed with #Ferrari, others that he cancelled the #Ferrari deal at the last minute. #Speedweek



#261 Owen

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Posted 19 December 2014 - 10:42

Bob #Bell and Rob #Marshall declined #Ferrari offers via @omnicorse



#262 Raest

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Posted 19 December 2014 - 12:22

How do you know it's not their fault ? You don't know because you are not in the team. If Ferrari sack them after 4 years in the team it's because they underperform. It's simple as that. For example, i'm yet to see what Hamashima have done during these years.. He was Mr Tyres at Ferrari and each years Ferrari cars have problem to use the tyres. Each years !

Pat Fry what did he bring to the table ? He was director of the chassis for the 2012 and 2013 cars.

Tombazis was chief designer, his cars were failures.

 

Why Ferrari have to keep them ? It was failure after failure with them.

 

The strategy they are following is get rid of the past and start a new era. Like when LDM choose Todt twenty years ago.

 

Allison is a key part of this new era. He will not be fired. Next year cars will be his first car at Ferrari. Fry, Tombazis etc... had 4 chances ( 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015 ), the first three were failure, and rumors are saying the next one will be even worse.

That's oversimplistic and misses the point entirely. you are not talking about university graduates but about proven and successful engineers. They did not become incompetent overnight and surely they did not collectively decide to fail. On the contrary the fact that so many proven and successful engineers failed to deliver is the best proof about the Ferrari environment and ethos post-Todt, i.e. the re-emergence and prevalence of spaghetti culture. Be in denial if you want but if that continues Allison will be the next one to be thrown under the bus



#263 Nonesuch

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Posted 20 December 2014 - 09:01

the re-emergence and prevalence of spaghetti culture.

 

Because Ferrari is an Italian team? Can we ascribe the horrible record of Williams and McLaren (last WCCs almost 20 years ago!) to something vaguely related to them being English teams, too?

 

Do you think Pat Fry, Neil Martin or Hamashima are incompetent people ...

 

Of course not, but that doesn't mean everything they do turns to gold. They were in positions of leadership and thus carried a degree of responsibility for Ferrari's failed (in the sense of winning the championships) projects.



#264 FullWets

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Posted 20 December 2014 - 16:32

Of course not, but that doesn't mean everything they do turns to gold. They were in positions of leadership and thus carried a degree of responsibility for Ferrari's failed (in the sense of winning the championships) projects.

 Not that I disagree regarding their responsibility or find your opinion not reasonable, but something similar can be said of Costa, who was fired due to the low performance of the car and now look at him in Mercedes. When he reports that they requested a new wind tunnel back in 2008 and the management decided it was not really necessary, who do you think is really to blame for the poor results of these years: management or technical staff?


Edited by FullWets, 20 December 2014 - 16:36.


#265 Szoelloe

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Posted 20 December 2014 - 18:23

 Not that I disagree regarding their responsibility or find your opinion not reasonable, but something similar can be said of Costa, who was fired due to the low performance of the car and now look at him in Mercedes. When he reports that they requested a new wind tunnel back in 2008 and the management decided it was not really necessary, who do you think is really to blame for the poor results of these years: management or technical staff?

 

The management, 100%. They should have realized in the past 5 seasons at some point that the reason they can't get over the threshold is the lack of synergy within the technical department. In other words, even more simply put, they were completely disorganized. As usual. As I see it, based on the info coming out of the team the past few seasons, the various departments with various heads worked individually. No cohesion, no one to kick ass and make them work together as a unit towards the same goal. You see what Costa can do when working in a team, at Ferrari he was a scapegoat. I do think he is an arch example. Ferrari had a bunch of very talented engineers, and the reason that they had to make a tabula rasa by now is yes, 100% the management, not necessarily the individuals they had to let go now.



#266 FullWets

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Posted 21 December 2014 - 15:42

good question - IMHO - no simple answer. - both I would say.

let's try to look at it from a different perspective.

 

If you are contracted to do a certain job (whatever this may be), and you are qualified to do this job, and have a pretty clear understanding of what you need to do this job in order to achieve the set out objectives, and then realize, that you will be unable to achieve this objectives because you are not given the resources needed (money, manpower, infrastructure whatever).

What do you do?

You put up your hand, and say sorry I can't do the job, and leave or you keep taking the money and try to do something (your best I suppose)?

If enough, do the former, then sooner or later "management" may have to realize, that something is amiss, and things may change.

If you take the money, and do it anyway, despite your better expert judgement, then are you not becomming "part of the problem"?

Are you not helping to prolong a process, which will have to fail, sooner or later anyway?

 

It's one of the "beauties" of racing, at least for me, that it is a lot more complex and multi facetted then it appears on first sight.

You don't just need the "best people" to be successful, you need the "best people" for your team, at the time - and this "definition" (best) keeps changing over time.

To illustrate my point, I think that there is widespread agreement that people like Newey or Brawn are very competent and "know what they are doing", yet, none of them did "their magic" on a shoestring budget. Therefore I doubt, that they would be "the best" choice for a team like Force India or Sauber. Most likely, they would get frustrated very quickly, being unable to produce the results they have come to expect &/or driving the team into insolvency by trying.

On the other hand, someone like James Key, who may is used to such a enviorment, and can "make a buck go that much further", will find the going tough when putting into a leading position at a team like Ferrari or McLaren, with all their bloated up structures, bureaucracy and politics.

It's very often "horses for courses", both parties are competent when able to operate within their enviorment, but both may look "out of place" when forced to operate in a different enviorment.

None is "incompetent" or solely to "blame" for what may happened, sometimes you may don't even realize it, you were giving it "your best", but this proved "not good enough" in the greater scheme of things.

 

 

The management, 100%. They should have realized in the past 5 seasons at some point that the reason they can't get over the threshold is the lack of synergy within the technical department. In other words, even more simply put, they were completely disorganized. As usual. As I see it, based on the info coming out of the team the past few seasons, the various departments with various heads worked individually. No cohesion, no one to kick ass and make them work together as a unit towards the same goal. You see what Costa can do when working in a team, at Ferrari he was a scapegoat. I do think he is an arch example. Ferrari had a bunch of very talented engineers, and the reason that they had to make a tabula rasa by now is yes, 100% the management, not necessarily the individuals they had to let go now.

 

I tend to agree Szoelloe. If you start at a company and become the one that is always complaining about management decisions, well, you are not going to get very far (or you will be criticized for creating bad atmosphere like Alonso recently). Management determines the basic rules of the game in the team and any person hired can have an effect, but normally it won't change things radically. That is where the real big names of F1 make a difference: a Newey or a Brawn won't accept the responsibility if they cannot control the development environment, they can allow themselves to choose their teams carefully and only work where the conditions for succeeding are provided. If you are a less prominent guy, you will be more than happy with a work offer from Ferrari. You will try to give your input and once it has been ignored a certain amount of times, sooner or later you will start to do your thing and don't care too much about the results, as far as your position is not threatened. Sadly in my opinion what has happened and still happens in Ferrari.


Edited by FullWets, 21 December 2014 - 15:46.


#267 g1n

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Posted 21 December 2014 - 20:18

They should have done this last winter, now effectively they will have the same car designed by same people, only in 2016 will they see any benefits from new people.



#268 blacky

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Posted 22 December 2014 - 07:48

They should have done this last winter, now effectively they will have the same car designed by same people, only in 2016 will they see any benefits from new people.

 

The new chief designer Simone Resta and his design team are making the 2015 Ferrari, this has always been the plan. Tombazis and his design team should have made the 2016 car again, Resta 2017,...



#269 hankalis

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Posted 22 December 2014 - 08:13

The new chief designer Simone Resta and his design team are making the 2015 Ferrari, this has always been the plan. Tombazis and his design team should have made the 2016 car again, Resta 2017,...

 

didn't know Ferrari had that two-design-teams organization. I know Mclaren do or at least used to do.

If indeed that's the case, Tombazis departure will indeed have less short term impact 



#270 blacky

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Posted 22 December 2014 - 09:20

Ferrari explained this in their videos before season start of 2013. 2012 was the first under the lead of Tombazis, 2013 the first under the lead of Resta, 2014 Tombazis again,..


Edited by blacky, 22 December 2014 - 09:20.