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The Affect of the Virtual Safety Car on a GP?


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#1 McLaren

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Posted 04 December 2014 - 12:00

When the virtual safety car is deployed, all the cars on track will be limited to a certain max speed. This will apply to the whole track rather than just a specific sector.

My question is, how will this affect a Grand Prix and the driving behavior of the drivers?

In a virtual safety car scenario for example, Driver A could be leading Driver B by 10 seconds. But now, with a max speed limit the gap could still be reduced/increased depending on the line the drivers take around the circuit even if they are going at the same speed.

Will we see drivers trying to warm up their tires in certain conditions.. or will we see no drivers trying to warm up their tires because of the above? (To avoid taking a longer route around the track.)

I might not have understood how the virtual safety care will work.. so please excuse me if that is the case. But if I am correct, then I think it will be interesting to see the behavior of the drivers under the virtual safety car, and also if the gaps between drivers noticeably increase/reduce (like they do now under waved yellows as some drivers lift more as seen in Japan this year). F1 drivers will always try and go as fast as possible around the track.. be it in the pits, or under a virtual safety car... so I wonder if there will be new rules for these drivers to adhere to, if drivers do anything to gain a unfair competitive advantage.

 

Of course, the virtual safety car is not a replacement for the real safety car.. so it will not be used in every scenario.  Either way, I think we may only discover the affect of the virtual safety car next year..



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#2 redreni

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Posted 04 December 2014 - 13:44

In F1, it won't work like this. It will work on delta times for each timing loop around the track, so as long as you don't get from one timing point to the next in too little time, the line you take and the speed you do are free. This is, in large part, because of the requirement for F1 cars to be able to accelerate, brake and steer harshly in order to warm the tyres.

 

I understand WEC does have a speed limit, though, but I don't think they've seen the gaps between cars change significantly under the VSC.



#3 McLaren

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Posted 04 December 2014 - 13:56

In F1, it won't work like this. It will work on delta times for each timing loop around the track, so as long as you don't get from one timing point to the next in too little time, the line you take and the speed you do are free. This is, in large part, because of the requirement for F1 cars to be able to accelerate, brake and steer harshly in order to warm the tyres.

 

I understand WEC does have a speed limit, though, but I don't think they've seen the gaps between cars change significantly under the VSC.

 

But if that is the case, then the drivers would surely want to get around the track as close to that delta time as possible. I am not sure whether you are correct in what you have stated above.. as I have seen nothing that states drivers have to drive to a delta lap time. If so.. what is stopping them from going quicker that the time? Hence I would have thought there was a speed limit.



#4 Jamiednm

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Posted 04 December 2014 - 15:30

Will the VSC replace the actual safety car in some instances, or it is just a stop gap while the actual safety car is deployed?



#5 HuddersfieldTerrier1986

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Posted 04 December 2014 - 15:30

Well if you went quicker than the delta time, you'd get a penalty, the same as happened at Canada in 2011 for example where a few drivers were penalised for going too quickly behind the SC before everyone caught up to it and got in line.



#6 redreni

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Posted 04 December 2014 - 15:35

Will the VSC replace the actual safety car in some instances, or it is just a stop gap while the actual safety car is deployed?

 

If it was just a stop-gap, nothing would be changing, since the cars are already controlled by deltas from the time the SC is deployed until they catch the pack. The point of the Virtual Safety Car procedure is that the actual safety car is not used (although if the circumstances change, presumably the Race Director reserves the right to deploy the safety car at any time he sees fit, even during a VSC procedure).



#7 HuddersfieldTerrier1986

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Posted 04 December 2014 - 15:35

Will the VSC replace the actual safety car in some instances, or it is just a stop gap while the actual safety car is deployed?

 

It's a middle ground, where marshals for example need to clear debris or move a car to a safer place but which doesn't require a safety car, yet can't be handled with just double waved yellows (particularly as with any sort of waved yellows, drivers barely slow down at all). A good example would be a tyre coming off and landing just on the side of the track, they'd likely cover that with a VSC while the marshals go and move the tyre, rather than just waving double yellows or throwing the SC as it may not take too long to actually clear the tyre and the marshal get back to where he/she should be. Another example maybe would be Sutil at Hockenheim this year with that incident, that would probably have been covered with a VSC I reckon (not that I remember loads about where he was parked mind you).



#8 McLaren

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Posted 04 December 2014 - 17:00

Well if you went quicker than the delta time, you'd get a penalty, the same as happened at Canada in 2011 for example where a few drivers were penalised for going too quickly behind the SC before everyone caught up to it and got in line.

 

But then how does that prevent a driver going around a part of the track too fast? In terms of Safety.. I am sure a delta time would help, but it won't fully resolve the issue.



#9 redreni

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Posted 04 December 2014 - 17:19

But then how does that prevent a driver going around a part of the track too fast? In terms of Safety.. I am sure a delta time would help, but it won't fully resolve the issue.

 

I agree with you, there. The idea of it is that the timing loops would be so short (I think they were originally set at every 50m or something) that you wouldn't be able to go very much faster than the average speed required to hit the deltas. However after the system was tested, the drivers successfully lobbied to have the timing loops lengthened, because they were finding it hard to stick to the deltas and keep their brakes and tyres in.

 

The point that the FIA is missing, in my humble opinion, is that aggressive tyre and brake warming poses a risk to track workers compared to cars maintaining a steady speed. But if cars were required to drive at a steady speed under a VSC procedure, they would lose tyre and brake temperature and this would prove dangerous at the restart.

 

The solution is to follow the first recommendation of the accident panel, which F1 has pre-empted by introducing its own system which doesn't do what the recommendation calls for. The recommendation is for a speed limit that applies where a yellow flag is shown and that's what should be implemented. There should be no restriction on either speed or overtaking on the remainder of the track. This solves the problem of critical loss of heat from the brakes and tyres. Hopefully the FIA will step in on the grounds of safety prior to next season and replace the VSC system with local yellow flag speed limits as recommended by its own accident panel. If they notify everyone about the rule change by the end of the year, the system could be tested in pre-season testing and on Friday at the first event, and incorporated into the sporting regulations and rolled out asap thereafter.



#10 WOT

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Posted 06 December 2014 - 09:03

I agree with you, there. The idea of it is that the timing loops would be so short (I think they were originally set at every 50m or something) that you wouldn't be able to go very much faster than the average speed required to hit the deltas. However after the system was tested, the drivers successfully lobbied to have the timing loops lengthened, because they were finding it hard to stick to the deltas and keep their brakes and tyres in.

 

The point that the FIA is missing, in my humble opinion, is that aggressive tyre and brake warming poses a risk to track workers compared to cars maintaining a steady speed. But if cars were required to drive at a steady speed under a VSC procedure, they would lose tyre and brake temperature and this would prove dangerous at the restart.

 

The solution is to follow the first recommendation of the accident panel, which F1 has pre-empted by introducing its own system which doesn't do what the recommendation calls for. The recommendation is for a speed limit that applies where a yellow flag is shown and that's what should be implemented. There should be no restriction on either speed or overtaking on the remainder of the track. This solves the problem of critical loss of heat from the brakes and tyres. Hopefully the FIA will step in on the grounds of safety prior to next season and replace the VSC system with local yellow flag speed limits as recommended by its own accident panel. If they notify everyone about the rule change by the end of the year, the system could be tested in pre-season testing and on Friday at the first event, and incorporated into the sporting regulations and rolled out asap thereafter.

 

My sentiments exactly. The deployment of the safety car in my opinion is immaterial. Flag marshals and their Observer are the ones that have the expertise and knowledge as to how to control traffic at any given point on the track. Having been a flag marshal I find it disgraceful that flags are ignored and this is an agenda that needs to be hammered home and policed. I have said this time and time again (in another place) that there should be the most severe penalties (two strikes and you're out - license gone) for disobeying yellow flags.
 
When I was flagging back in the early 60's, we didn't have safety cars. The waved double yellow flag meant: "This is serious ****, be prepared to stop, we fncking mean it!!". The preceding flag point would hold out a stationary double yellow and the point before that a waved single yellow and the point before that a stationary single yellow. It gave the drivers plenty of warning that they may need to stop. In my days, it worked. A speed reduction at each progressive flag point was required and was usually given. The rare bird that failed to show an apreciable reduction in speed was reported to the stewards.
 
That was in the days when the tracks were much narower, and the cars weren't as fast, but the drivers back then were very respectful of the double waved yellow, and we didn't use them lightly, but it allowed us corner workers to be on track putting out fires, extracting drivers, cleaning up debris, spreading cement dust and pushing wrecks behind barriers as the cars picked their way between us.
 
I remember reading somewhere Martin Brundle said in relation to one of his wet weather accidents that he could not see yellow flags due to the spray from the preceding cars - fair comment. Today we have a massive electronics influence, yellow flags coud be displayed on the drivers dash as well as the now high viz electronic yellow "flags" track side.
 
My ideal, as an example, would be to have a lap layout showing max speeds at all given points. It there is a stationary yellow flag displayed, the maximum speed at that point must be reduced by 20%, a waved yellow flag reduce the max speed by 40%, stationary double yellow reduce max speed by 60%, waved double yellow reduce max speed by 85% and increase these margins in inclement weather. If the drivers find that they are incapable of controlling these parameters themselves, then do it electronically. They can continue to race once they get a green flag.
 
As an old flaggy, the strict observance of yellow flag speeds  is imperative for the safety of marshals and for the driver/s involved in an incident. Yes, the virtual safety car is an option, but I would rather see the incident controlled locally, by observance by the drivers, of yellow flags.
 
The point raised about agressive tyre warming should also be addressed. If there is excessive temperature loss in an extended yellow flag session, then in my view, the tyre manufacturers need to examine this aspect, as a safety issue, and maybe rethink their tyre compounds and structures.


#11 fZero

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Posted 06 December 2014 - 09:42

I think F1 has made it far to complicated. In the case of a localised issue, instead of double waved yellows or VSC they should have a Go Slow zone, same as WEC, then be free to race the rest of the track. The cars already have a pit limiter.

 

If it is more than a local hazard or for an extended time then the lead car can be the safety car, limited to whatever speed.

 

An actual safety car is probably only needed at the start of a race and in heavy rain conditions to relay track conditions to Charlie.



#12 Bleu

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Posted 06 December 2014 - 17:14

What would be logical IMO is to use:

actual safety car = when there is a problem on the track or medical car is needed

virtual safety car = when there is a problem outside the track and no medical help is needed



#13 ExFlagMan

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Posted 06 December 2014 - 17:54

This is a post I made in July 2013 after an abandoned car started to roll back across the track after the driver got out.
 

I would like to propose a much simpler solution.
Enforce the yellow flag rules and only use the Safety Car when really essential.
I have noticed over the last couple of years that the first thing the commentator says when a car pulls off is 'will this require a Safety Car?' as if they are trying to influence Race Control.
The drivers have come to regard a 'slight lift' as being a reasonable response to a yellow flag and look at it as a chance to gain on their rivals.
When was a F1 driver last penalised for a yellow flag infringement.

Given the level of electronics and GPS systems available it ought to be possible to devise a system that warns drivers in sector or two in advance of the yellow flag zone and a delta time for those sectors and if they do not respond then automatically impose a 'soft rev cut' at a safe place until they have responded.

Any transgressions result in an endorsement using the proposed new driver penalty system.
You will still need the occasional SC but once drivers get 'educated' to the new system the requirements for SC intervention should reduce as most incidents could be covered by yellows.
The advantages of such a system is that even if you had to slow the cars to walking pace past the actual incident zone there would be much less risk of tyre temperature/pressure drop as the cars could continue at race pace for the rest of the lap. There would be no reordering problems and no need to restrict pit stops etc.

I realise that this is really only going back to the system from 20-30 years ago when drivers mainly respected the flag signals and so might be seen as a retrograde step but I can remember GP's where cars where even retrieved from the middle of the track under waved yellows.

I guess instead of the 'soft-rev cut' penalty I suggested then they could just disable the drivers use of ERS for a couple of laps instead.

Edited by ExFlagMan, 06 December 2014 - 17:55.


#14 Fatgadget

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Posted 06 December 2014 - 22:55

Simple.Adapt to the new rules.Its far from rocket science being adaptable is it?