275 replies to this topic

[P123]

I don't think that earlier in his career he would have responded so strongly, on finding that he was not the team's preferred driver.

Renault, 2002?

[FullWets]

Why do you assume that Fernando comes in asking for #1 driver status? I think Fer feels pretty confident in his ability to beat Jenson fair & square and let his racing do the talking for him.

All he has to do is consistently beat Jenson and he will by default be the number one, no need to ask for it.

  Exactly my thoughts. Nowadays you don't have "Nr.1 driver" contracts, you don't take the Nr.2 driver's car when yours is broken and so on, those are things of the past. Logically the expectation is that the team will stand behind you, if you show in the first part of the season that you have what it takes to go for the WDC more than the other driver. And I cannot find this logic flawed, if you really want to win in F1

[BillBald]

Renault, 2002?

 

My memories of 2002 are a little hazy, and I might be wrong on this, but I don't remember Jenson being in such dominant form throughout the season.

[Lights]

Talking about 2002... (NSFW)

[Force Ten]

Talking about 2002... (NSFW)

Them flip-flops are what make otherwise just an amusing photo simply classic.

[Seanspeed]

Not by very much, in 2010 by 26 points and in 2012 it was just 2 points...
 
Those seasons were much closer between Lewis and Jenson that what actually transpired between Lewis and Nico this year... Rosberg has had little reply to Lewis' speed on Sunday's, yet that was something Jenson could at least match and often beat him on.

Nope. Button often had little reply to Lewis' speed as well. It was largely other factors that kept the points close between them, not raw ability. Same as with Lewis vs Nico.

I don't think Button will get beat like Massa or Kimi have, but he *could*. If the car has some handling issues, I can very much see him getting whalloped. And if the car is ok, I still think Alonso will generally outperform him more often than not and get the better of him in the points barring circumstances out of their control.

[FullWets]

Massa : http://autoronaldo.c...s-teams-passed/

 

Raikkonen has said now with Vettel as a teammate, the Team will work better as a Team. That's why I said he insinuated.

 

Still, where is the evidence that he didn't share data? Nowhere

 

Here is what they mean: Alonso is very demanding with his team. The people hungry to win and therefore ready to perform at the absolute top appreciate it because it is the only way to win in F1 (Boullier: he is going to be challenging to handle, he already texts me everyday. Is the kind of boost that we expected...) whereas those rather willing to see the season go by complain (Räikkönen: we will have better atmosphere with Vettel).

[KWSN - DSM]

Faster qualifying time: Hamilton 44 / Button 14
Poles: Hamilton 9 / Button 1
Front rows: Hamilton: 23 / Button 9

Ahead in two-car finish: Hamilton 24 / Button 13

 

That's pretty close isn't it...

 

In 2012 it was only 2 points, and Button beat Hamilton on points in 2011. It is all about the points, how can it be any different? I fully expect Button to be close to Alonso and I fully expect Alonso to be better in qualifying, in races and in points over the season.

 

[jannyg]

Faster qualifying time: Hamilton 44 / Button 14
Poles: Hamilton 9 / Button 1
Front rows: Hamilton: 23 / Button 9
Ahead in two-car finish: Hamilton 24 / Button 13
 
That's pretty close isn't it...

Nice to see a Button fan being honest about this teammate battle.

No doubt Button proved a lot of people wrong with his competitive performances against Hamilton

But I think it is clear that Hamilton was the better of the two

[smr]

Button doesn't want to settle for the odd win. If he's in with a shout at a championship he'll go for it. I wish people would stop insinuating he's just there to play nice and make up the numbers. He said on Thursday he's there to win another title.

 

Epic. Exactly this, couldn't have said it better.

[MirNyet]

In 2012 it was only 2 points, and Button beat Hamilton on points in 2011. It is all about the points, how can it be any different? I fully expect Button to be close to Alonso and I fully expect Alonso to be better in qualifying, in races and in points over the season.

 

 

2012 is a dead end for that argument - Hamilton lost a few wins and over 100 points due to the car letting him down or getting hit by other drivers and should have won his last race in a McLaren if not for getting punted off by a Force India... While McLaren cost Button points in 2012, it was no where near the amount they cost Hamilton.

[Lazy]

Faster qualifying time: Hamilton 44 / Button 14
Poles: Hamilton 9 / Button 1
Front rows: Hamilton: 23 / Button 9

Ahead in two-car finish: Hamilton 24 / Button 13

 

That's pretty close isn't it...

That's a pretty selective set of statistics though, it looks a lot different if you include wins, podiums, points finishes for example.

[Force Ten]

Why are we doing Button vs Hamilton for the 117th time again? Nobody will convince anybody with anything.

[MirNyet]

That's a pretty selective set of statistics though, it looks a lot different if you include wins, podiums, points finishes for example.

 

The problem with that is that in 2011 and 2012 Hamilton had a poor finishing record - usually not for reasons of his own doing. While there was moments of madness in 2011, Hamilton drove wonderfully in 2012 only to be let down by McLaren themselves. That is not to say that Button didn't perform - however Hamilton was easily the better of the two - something not really shown by the points tally for instance.

[MirNyet]

Why are we doing Button vs Hamilton for the 117th time again? Nobody will convince anybody with anything.

 

There is a point to looking at 2010, 2011 and 2012 in that Alonso and Hamilton are quite evenly matched and are both seen as the best drivers on the grid at present. Looking at how Button matched up to Hamilton will give an idea of what to expect with Alonso.

[smr]

So many variables involved with Button vs Hamilton though, one that's overlooked to begin with being that Button joined Mclaren in 2010 after Hamilton had been there since 11 years old or something, so he already began the season at a disadvantage.

[tkulla]

At the risk of playing moderator, this thread isn't supposed to be Button vs. Alonso, never mind Button vs. Hamilton.

[Force Ten]

There is a point to looking at 2010, 2011 and 2012 in that Alonso and Hamilton are quite evenly matched and are both seen as the best drivers on the grid at present. Looking at how Button matched up to Hamilton will give an idea of what to expect with Alonso.

Hill was better than Villeneuve. Villeneuve was better than Frentzen. Hill was better than Frentzen?

We are getting absolutely nowhere if we are starting to arbitrarily throw stuff like "should have won his last race at McLaren". Could, yes, should? Why? Wasn't he a minute down of Button at one significant part of the race? Shouldn't these things count in the shoulds of all?

Edited by Force Ten, 14 December 2014 - 01:08.

[MirNyet]

Hill was better than Villeneuve. Villeneuve was better than Frentzen. Hill was better than Frentzen?

We are getting absolutely nowhere if we are starting to arbitrarily throw stuff like "should have won his last race at McLaren". Could, yes, should? Why? Wasn't he a minute down of Button at one significant part of the race? Shouldn't these things count in the shoulds of all?

 

Was Hill better than Villeneuve?

Yes, its mostly arbitrary. 

Yes he was behind Button but the safety car equalised it - he could have pulled away from Hamilton - but he didn't the opposite happened. Hamilton should have won, not could have won - the Force India was on fresher tires which would have gone off and negated the advantage it had allowing Hamilton to pull away from that too.

 

Its a forum - a forum to discuss things - not to be right as such - more to exchange viewpoints and idea's - so as such - this is as good a topic as the any...

[Newbrray]

In 2012 it was only 2 points, and Button beat Hamilton on points in 2011. It is all about the points, how can it be any different? I fully expect Button to be close to Alonso and I fully expect Alonso to be better in qualifying, in races and in points over the season.

 

 

its not only about points. As mentioned before there were other factors involved most to the detriment of Hamilton. Button has no answer to Hamiltons speed and that is the truth. if one was to ask who was a better driver between Senna and Prost the answer from the majority will be Senna because of the speed, determination and all round skill he possessed over Prost, yet in their 2 seasons together Prost outscored Senna 186 - 154 with the seasons shared apiece between the 2 drivers (although Prost still outscored Senna in both seasons). The points here don't tell the complete story as the Legacy has now proven that Senna was indeed a much better driver and other variables played to his disadvantage which was the same for Hamilton over the 3 seasons.

 

Hamilton  went one better and beat Button over 3 seasons (2-1) and we all know there were other variables that played to it. 

 

I believe the same will occur with regards to Alonso. There is no doubt that the McLaren pairing is definitely strong and with a good engine will probably be better than the Ferrari combo, but the intra team battle is Alonso's to lose.

[Force Ten]

Was Hill better than Villeneuve?

Yes, its mostly arbitrary. 

Yes he was behind Button but the safety car equalised it - he could have pulled away from Hamilton - but he didn't the opposite happened. Hamilton should have won, not could have won - the Force India was on fresher tires which would have gone off and negated the advantage it had allowing Hamilton to pull away from that too.

 

Its a forum - a forum to discuss things - not to be right as such - more to exchange viewpoints and idea's - so as such - this is as good a topic as the any...

Hill won 8 races to Villeneuve's 4. Some people here say that Hamilton with 4-to-3 win ratio "destroyed" Button, so go figure. Hamilton won 11 races to Rosbergs 5. Was he better?

 

Equalised? Safery car "equalised" Button's hard work of being a minute up on the road? I suppose then Hamilton's engine blowing in Singapore "equalised" the lopsided points score skewered towards Hamilton to more similar numbers. The minute you only look at a particular part of a race that fits your argument you are making there is not going to be any discussion. If you ignore that the safety car erased a legitimate minute lead and drop shoulds all over it then there is no discussion and I am absolutely not interested in any minutiae detail that follows that particular should.

 

BTW you mysteriously disappeared from the Who will drive for McLaren thread when I asked you to provide quotes for your claim that Button asked to make the front end of the 2014 McLaren car worse so he would find answers for his precious "balance problems". Please find the quotes.

[MirNyet]

Hill won 8 races to Villeneuve's 4. Some people here say that Hamilton with 4-to-3 win ratio "destroyed" Button, so go figure. Hamilton won 11 races to Rosbergs 5. Was he better?

 

Equalised? Safery car "equalised" Button's hard work of being a minute up on the road? I suppose then Hamilton's engine blowing in Singapore "equalised" the lopsided points score skewered towards Hamilton to more similar numbers. The minute you only look at a particular part of a race that fits your argument you are making there is not going to be any discussion. If you ignore that the safety car erased a legitimate minute lead and drop shoulds all over it then there is no discussion and I am absolutely not interested in any minutiae detail that follows that particular should.

 

BTW you mysteriously disappeared from the Who will drive for McLaren thread when I asked you to provide quotes for your claim that Button asked to make the front end of the 2014 McLaren car worse so he would find answers for his precious "balance problems". Please find the quotes.

 

A safety car is applied to the entire field - not solely to one car... Everyone is in the same boat. An engine blowing up affects the car and driver who's engine it is solely - its not an even handed event... 

 

Your focusing on points alone is focusing on something which suits your purpose... Perhaps you should take your own advice? 

 

As for disappearing - if memory serves - this would have been last weekend? I took my daughter to the National Gallery on the Saturday - and by the Sunday had pretty much forgotten. So - didn't ignore you - just had more important things to do.

Edited by MirNyet, 14 December 2014 - 02:37.

[Ev0d3vil]

Guys get back to Alonso v Button please !

[Force Ten]

A safety car is applied to the entire field - not solely to one car... Everyone is in the same boat. An engine blowing up affects the car and driver who's engine it is solely - its not an even handed event... 

 

Your focusing on points alone is focusing on something which suits your purpose... Perhaps you should take your own advice? 

 

As for disappearing - if memory serves - this would have been last weekend? I took my daughter to the National Gallery on the Saturday - and by the Sunday had pretty much forgotten. So - didn't ignore you - just had more important things to do.

Please find the quotes that support your claim that Button deliberately made the McLaren front end of 2014 worse so he could drive the car better.

[ButtonForEver]

Guys get back to Alonso v Button please !

 

Yeah, i think it's better...

[SophieB]

And yet not one of you reported anything. Drop a mod a line if you've got stuff you want to say about the new line up.