87 replies to this topic

[garoidb]

So Ferrari have signed the 7th highest rated guy to partner one who doesn't make the top ten. Hmmmmm.

[Zoetrope]

So Ferrari have signed the 7th highest rated guy to partner one who doesn't make the top ten. Hmmmmm.

For gazilions of USD

[MinT]

How the hell did Massa & Vettel get so high up in that poll !!!

[HeadFirst]

I have a bit of a problem with Hammy as #1. He did have to have to overcome some adversity, but there really was no competition for the Mercedes. Ricciardo on the other hand won 3 races in the Red Bull and Alonso's Ferrari was a truck, as evidenced by Kimi's struggles. My ranking would be:

 

Ricciardo

Alonso

Hamilton

Rosberg

Bottas

Button

Massa

Vettel

Kvyat 

Hulkenburg

[HeadFirst]

So Ferrari have signed the 7th highest rated guy to partner one who doesn't make the top ten. Hmmmmm.

 

It mystifies me too. They seemed so eager to rid themselves of Alonso and sign Vettel to partner Kimi, giving them the most underachieving pairing in F1. They gotta be counting on great bounce back years from those two. It could happen, but ...........................................

[velgajski1]

It mystifies me too. They seemed so eager to rid themselves of Alonso and sign Vettel to partner Kimi, giving them the most underachieving pairing in F1. They gotta be counting on great bounce back years from those two. It could happen, but ...........................................

 

I'm more mystified by sudden 'Vettel underperformer' mentality. He's clearly one of F1 legends already and you can be 100% sure he'll prove that again with Ferrari.

[MotorsportFerrari]

Alonso finished 6th in the WDC. It's a joke that some team principles ranked him ahead of race winner Ricciardo.

 

Alonso has a truck under him, Riccardo had the second best car. Or did yo see another championship?

 

If we follow your logics, Rosberg should be second cos he won more then Ric. You want to convert the WDC table into the table of rating...

 

 

Is Hammy the number One, Perhaps. But only perhaps He had a car which was 2 seconds faster then any other car at times. He only had to fight against his team mate, while others had the whole field to fight against. 

 

For me both the WDC and WCC were won by Mercedes. Lewis didn't win anything. It is now against him, but in this situation he didn't really need to show his driver qualities. Nor did Nico.

[tomjol]

I'm more mystified by sudden 'Vettel underperformer' mentality. He's clearly one of F1 legends already and you can be 100% sure he'll prove that again with Ferrari.

 

While I agree that any four-time WDC classes as "an F1 legend", and much as I would like him to help Ferrari back to winning ways, I'm definitely not 100% sure that will happen.

Edited by tomjol, 12 December 2014 - 19:51.

[MP422]

I have a bit of a problem with Hammy as #1. He did have to have to overcome some adversity, but there really was no competition for the Mercedes. Ricciardo on the other hand won 3 races in the Red Bull and Alonso's Ferrari was a truck, as evidenced by Kimi's struggles. My ranking would be:

 

Ricciardo

Alonso

Hamilton

Rosberg

Bottas

Button

Massa

Vettel

Kvyat 

Hulkenburg

 

 

Hamilton had issues out of his control during the races Ricciardo won, Ricciardo was rated above Rosberg which makes sense.

 

This championship was down to the wire, well earned, and both Lewis and Nico should be respected. More teams should let their drivers actually race then use team orders.

[garoidb]

Hamilton had issues out of his control during the races Ricciardo won, Ricciardo was rated above Rosberg which makes sense.

 

This championship was down to the wire, well earned, and both Lewis and Nico should be respected. More teams should let their drivers actually race then use team orders.

 

Mercedes were almost guaranteed both championships from the beginning, so it wasn't a big risk to let them race each other.  Let's wait until they have some more competitiion and see if this is a core principle or just a luxury enjoyed by a dominant team. 

[NoSanityClause]

Hamilton had issues out of his control during the races Ricciardo won, Ricciardo was rated above Rosberg which makes sense.

 

This championship was down to the wire, well earned, and both Lewis and Nico should be respected. More teams should let their drivers actually race then use team orders.

They mentioned plenty of times that if the need arise they would use team orders. They didn't use them (as far as we know, at least) but they were far from thinking that team orders are detrimental.

[Zoetrope]

 

 

For me both the WDC and WCC were won by Mercedes. Lewis didn't win anything. It is now against him, but in this situation he didn't really need to show his driver qualities. Nor did Nico.

Yup. Both drivers agreed to drive at exactly 80% at all times. They never pushed each other. Waslike holidays.

[hollowstar]

Yup. Both drivers agreed to drive at exactly 80% at all times. They never pushed each other. Waslike holidays.

True that. I heard that Nico could have won all races had he gone to 81%, but he just didn't feel like it.

[GoldenColt]

True that. I heard that Nico could have won all races had he gone to 81%, but he just didn't feel like it.

 

Nonsense. Toto and Niki told him to only go for 79% with Lewis being allowed to go for 80%.

 

After Spa of course.

[FullWets]

These list are always skewed towards drivers in good cars.

I don't question that TPs have more information to go on than we do, more understanding, more knowledge etc etc.

And yet I do wonder how many actually give a toss when they make their lists.

Agree.

 

The more public-oriented the list is, the more the value of the winning driver as "legitimate" champion must be boosted.

 

That's the reason drivers keep voting Alonso as the best in the "unofficial" polls, at least those non binded to RBR gag program.

 

I would rate the level of BS in these ratings as follows (from rather honest to utter nonsense / purely random)

 

Drivers --> Team Principals --> Autosport --> Internet Fanboys --> Bernie

 

(That leaves Autosport's one in a moderate level of BS which is nice since I'm posting here ;)

Edited by FullWets, 12 December 2014 - 22:12.

[FullWets]

I'm more mystified by sudden 'Vettel underperformer' mentality. He's clearly one of F1 legends already and you can be 100% sure he'll prove that again with Ferrari.

I see you have readily bought Bernie's explanation to Vettel's lame season. I prevent you: if the mummy dies or CVC removes him from the helm of the sport any time soon your hopes regarding Vettel showing his greatness at Ferrari may not be fulfilled...anyway the odds are that you will see it go your way

[Ducks]

I think only Lewis Hamilton could win 11 races in a season and not deserve to be crowned best driver of the season by the TPs of the sport.

[PretentiousBread]

Imagine that - suddenly he gets the best car, suddenly he wins and suddenly he's the best driver by miles - as opposed to all those other years where he actually drove more consistently but didn't have a rocketship at his disposal.....The all important team principal ratings that nobody should give a **** about.

[sennafan24]

- I could understand any of the top 3 winning. 

 

- Button should be higher. Around 4-6.

 

- Vettel is about right.

 

- Bianchi deserves to be on the list. No sympathy vote, I myself had him on my list.

 

- Massa was closer to Bottas than the points scored showed. So I have no issue with him being in the top 10.

 

- I don't think Kyvat performed well enough to be in the top 10. I find it silly that JEV and Perez are not listed instead of him. Let alone Hulk.

[HeadFirst]

I'm more mystified by sudden 'Vettel underperformer' mentality. He's clearly one of F1 legends already and you can be 100% sure he'll prove that again with Ferrari.

 

Nothing mysterious about the under-performer label, when a 4x WDC suddenly becomes a non-factor in a car that won 3 races in the hands of a driver with less experience. He under-performed in 2014. Vettel has the opportunity to show he is deserving of legend status by bouncing back and winning, even if the Ferrari is not up to the standards of the Mercedes. Otherwise he will be classed like many others, as a driver that can win in a dominant car.

[HeadFirst]

They mentioned plenty of times that if the need arise they would use team orders. They didn't use them (as far as we know, at least) but they were far from thinking that team orders are detrimental.

 

Mercedes used team orders once, Hamilton chose to ignore them.

[surbjits]

Well done TPs, spot on that Hamilton is the best driver in 2014. Yes he had the best car by a mile but he overcame a lot of adversity, withstood a lot of pressure and delivered in every race that he could finish. I for one have been getting irritated by the media trying to claim that Alonso is considered the best, on what they are basing this on, I would like to know. TPs know more than journos regarding what is required to be a WDC . What if Jenson beats Alonso next season, what would they say then?

What if Nando destroys button (a driver who beat Hamilton over the course of a season)?

[surbjits]

Imagine that - suddenly he gets the best car, suddenly he wins and suddenly he's the best driver by miles - as opposed to all those other years where he actually drove more consistently but didn't have a rocketship at his disposal.....The all important team principal ratings that nobody should give a **** about.

Haha

[surbjits]

This championship was down to the wire, well earned, and both Lewis and Nico should be respected. More teams should let their drivers actually race then use team orders.

Merc were on a different planet pace-wise, if the field had been close I doubt they would be allowed to race each other: that is the luxury lf having a huge gap over everyone.

[aramos]

So Ferrari have signed the 7th highest rated guy to partner one who doesn't make the top ten. Hmmmmm.

 

Lets not make brash decisions based on a single year. Vettel had a disappointing season but he's shown that he can be a very good driver in years prior. Thats not to say I'm trying to defend him as the absolute best in the sport, but Vettel can mix it with the best and if you give him a dominant car he will consistently beat them. Clearly not the best, but very good. 

 

Ferrari never wanted to fire Alonso, but Vettel is clearly the best of the drivers that currently were off contract and wanted to drive for them. With their WCC payment guarantees we know money is not a huge object for them either.

Edited by aramos, 13 December 2014 - 04:31.

[RoutariEnjinu]

I can't believe the team principals of F1 know less about the drivers than some massive internet fans do.

There should be an internet petition or something. Using social media. And expert analysis from the people that actually watched the races, WITH live timing on a laptop, and perhaps even the GPS app on those social media devices.

Edited by RoutariEnjinu, 13 December 2014 - 06:05.

[sopa]

So Ferrari have signed the 7th highest rated guy to partner one who doesn't make the top ten. Hmmmmm.

 

But then again look. The same team principals voted Vettel as the best in 2013, and Raikkonen as third best. So the team principals may think that - well, they had a crap year, but they still have the potential to be creme de la creme!

 

Overall I agree that the lists are skewed based on car performance, also looking at past years. But that's normal - everyone rates drivers like that anyway. Who would vote Alonso as the best driver of 2009? He was still very good, just in a rubbish car.

 

TP's have a lot of insight, but it doesn't mean their view is an unarguable gospel. After all, if you look closer, TP's are all different people and all have slightly varying different views as well. So whose judgement would you trust? For example McLaren had hoped both Perez and Magnussen were potential superstars and hired them, only to send them away after only a single year. Surely in retrospect we can evaluate many situations and say that there is no person, who has access to the Monopoly of Truth™.

[Watkins74]

<sarcasm> Really ignorant of the TP's to not realize Kimi wasn't happy with his car </sarcasm>

[maverick69]

<sarcasm> Really ignorant of the TP's to not realize Kimi wasn't happy with his car </sarcasm>

Lol. You will be burned at the stake Mr Watkins.........

[LuckyStrike1]

It mystifies me too. They seemed so eager to rid themselves of Alonso and sign Vettel to partner Kimi, giving them the most underachieving pairing in F1. They gotta be counting on great bounce back years from those two. It could happen, but ...........................................

 

 

Between them they have five WDC between 2007 and 2013 so claiming they are the most underachieving pair in F1 on the bck on one season each when they got beaten by their respective team mates seems a bit exaggerated to me. 

[Jimisgod]

Shrug.

The top 10 would be those who beat their teammates. So...

Hamilton
Ricciardo
Alonso
Bottas
Button
Hulkenberg
Vergne
Grosjean
Bianchi
Rosberg

The others at the back didn't "beat" each other so they get excluded in favor of Rosberg.

[v@sh]

Between them they have five WDC between 2007 and 2013 so claiming they are the most underachieving pair in F1 on the bck on one season each when they got beaten by their respective team mates seems a bit exaggerated to me. 

 

 

The problem I see is that fans have been relying on their achievements in a different era of regulations. There is only so much fans can keep holding onto past achievements. This is why Alonso is the best driver, he adapts of whichever regulation changes they are. The new regulations do not suit Kimi or Vettel's driving style and it will be a continuation of 2014 regs which is why I don't see Ferrari maximizing the car's potential with those two drivers who were beaten fairly comprehensively by their respective team-mates.

 

Unless Kimi gets the front end he wants he won't be at his best, the same goes for Seb who requires the rear end planted. One season is enough to see the flaws in their driving styles to certain regs, whether they can change or adapt to that remains to be seen next year. Kimi has had a whole season to adapt and still hasn't come round (much like the mid season tire change last year) so how likely is he to improve if he has barely improved during a whole season?

 

Seb still needs work, he has shown flashes here and there but outright speed and tire management with these regs will never be as good as he has shown previously. 6 tenths down in qualifying in Abu Dhabi? No matter which way you look at it, in the back of your mind next year you will always think that Alonso or Ricciardo would have got that car higher than either of them based off the performances of this year.

[P123]

These list are always skewed towards drivers in good cars.
I don't question that TPs have more information to go on than we do, more understanding, more knowledge etc etc.
And yet I do wonder how many actually give a toss when they make their lists.

True, but the good drivers do tend to end up in the good cars. Their's is just an opinion like anybody elses, and their opinions will be influenced too by personal relationships. So really, not any more worthy than the supposed 'experts' of Autosport, or any of us on this forum. Looking at their list, Button is too low, Massa and Bottas are too high.

Edited by P123, 13 December 2014 - 12:34.

[Gary Davies]

If an anorak fails to sufficiently take into account the car/package in rating a driver, then that is understandable. But I must say it bewilders me that TP's (and F1 journo's) routinely seems to fall for the same trap. 

 

Take the case of Herr Vettel*, rated #7 in 2014. Sure it seems he didn't do his talent 100% credit this year but here's a bloke who in the Newey rocket ships of 2012 and 2013 was being put on the same pedestal by many as the likes of Moss, Clark, Fangio, Senna etc. 

 

I dunno, that seems to be a bit of cognitive dissonance floating around amongst the TP's.

 

* Before the inbound ordnance arrives, may I say that I'm a fan and follower of F1 but not of any driver or team.

[discover23]

....Sure it seems he didn't do his talent 100% credit this year but here's a bloke who in the Newey rocket ships of 2012 and 2013 was being put on the same pedestal by many as the likes of Moss, Clark, Fangio, Senna etc.

.

By who? Pockets in the media perphaps. Most likely the people in the paddock never put Vettel on the same pedestal.
Alonso was proven to be right when he said That Vettel's greatness will be measured when he has to drive a non dominant car .. And as we saw he lost miserably to his teammate.

[RedRabbit]

Shrug.

The top 10 would be those who beat their teammates. So...

Hamilton
Ricciardo
Alonso
Bottas
Button
Hulkenberg
Vergne
Grosjean
Bianchi
Rosberg

The others at the back didn't "beat" each other so they get excluded in favor of Rosberg.

 

If you're doing it that way, surely Alonso and Button should be first and second after bludgeoning their teammates?

[MastaKink]

If you're doing it that way, surely Alonso and Button should be first and second after bludgeoning their teammates?

 

To be fair it's hard to bludgeon your team mate when the worst they can do is 2nd.

 

(For Hamilton)

Edited by MastaKink, 13 December 2014 - 13:39.

[HeadFirst]

Between them they have five WDC between 2007 and 2013 so claiming they are the most underachieving pair in F1 on the bck on one season each when they got beaten by their respective team mates seems a bit exaggerated to me. 

 

That is precisely why the are the under-achieving pair. Between them they have 5 WDC's and they sucked big time in 2014. Neither one came within 100 miles of achieving to their potential ... that why they are under-achievers.