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Smedley: Mercedes Dominance Won't Last Long


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#1 AustinF1

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Posted 17 December 2014 - 14:51

Mercedes F1 dominance won't last says Williams's Rob Smedley
 

http://www.autosport...rce=twitterfeed

 

 

"If you look at the gap we had in Australia and the gap we had in the last race of the year, I think that if anything it has probably been getting a little bit better.

"People understand how to develop their car better, they understand how to build a better chassis, have better harmony between the power unit and the chassis, and that dominance is usually decreased.

"It is up to us, the other teams, whether we are Williams, whether we are Red Bull, whether we are Ferrari, to go out and to do a better job than everybody else."

 



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#2 Timothy

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Posted 17 December 2014 - 15:08

If there's going to be a team mounting a proper challenge against Mercedes it certainly won't be Williams, not with that customer unit in the back at least.



#3 paulogman

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Posted 17 December 2014 - 15:18

Williams is better off with a merc motor than any other on the grid.
but they will always be at a disadvantage to the works team because of the lead time of seeing the developments that the factory team has.
Merc will be untouchable again this season.
Williams needs to get their act together team wise any way. They should have got second in the constructors title. The car was capable, the team is not yet.
they do very well up until race time and then they give away too many points through mistakes or bad strategy calls.
biggest threat to merc is red bull. If the Renault is half decent ricciardo can win

#4 HoldenRT

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Posted 17 December 2014 - 15:27

If there's going to be a team mounting a proper challenge against Mercedes it certainly won't be Williams, not with that customer unit in the back at least.

 

Hence McLaren switching.  There was talk after Monza that the engine modes that Williams can use are managed by Merc (the Merc rep etc) and usually that's no big deal but when you are battling against that same team for podiums or a victory..


Edited by HoldenRT, 17 December 2014 - 15:27.


#5 George Costanza

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Posted 17 December 2014 - 15:34

If there's going to be a team mounting a proper challenge against Mercedes it certainly won't be Williams, not with that customer unit in the back at least.

 

I find this a bit odd.... You mean that back in 1995 when Benetton and Williams shared Renault engines, and (Williams in the 1990s was the de facto Renault effort) yet Benetton beat Williams by a good margin in 1995. But because Benetton was a "customer" they can't beat them? Renault didn't buy Benetton until 2001 season so then you can say by '01 it was a factory effort...  Now granted, it was because of Ross, Rory and Michael Schuamcher that did that, but if they stayed on in 1996, I am sure they would have beaten Williams yet again.


Edited by George Costanza, 17 December 2014 - 15:37.


#6 Timothy

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Posted 17 December 2014 - 15:38

Hence McLaren switching.  There was talk after Monza that the engine modes that Williams can use are managed by Merc (the Merc rep etc) and usually that's no big deal but when you are battling against that same team for podiums or a victory..

 

See.. I wasn't even aware of such developments but like Paologman said, they'd be pretty pleased contesting for second in CWC considering where they've been the last decade or so.



#7 HoldenRT

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Posted 17 December 2014 - 15:46

They can be happy to be in 2nd it's just that for a team like Ferrari, McLaren or probably Redbull, they wouldn't be happy to know that 2nd best is the ceiling and max potiential.  They could beat Merc even with Merc engines, but they'd need a big advantage or for Merc to struggling (which is hard to see happening).  It's the close ones, just like with inter team battles.. where things would get tense.  Monza wasn't even for a championship, just two cars fighting for a podium and there was already talk of that then.  There was a similar thing with Perez in a Sauber and Alonso during a wet race at Sepang a few years ago.



#8 SenorSjon

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Posted 17 December 2014 - 15:51

I find this a bit odd.... You mean that back in 1995 when Benetton and Williams shared Renault engines, and (Williams in the 1990s was the de facto Renault effort) yet Benetton beat Williams by a good margin in 1995. But because Benetton was a "customer" they can't beat them? Renault didn't buy Benetton until 2001 season so then you can say by '01 it was a factory effort...  Now granted, it was because of Ross, Rory and Michael Schuamcher that did that, but if they stayed on in 1996, I am sure they would have beaten Williams yet again.

 

Flavio Briatore bought Ligier so to get his hands on the Renault engine. Look at Ford in 1993. McLaren usually was a few iterations behind the Benetton.

And back then, the driver made a bigger difference so Schumacher could compensate. ;)

 

 

Ontopic

Odd statement from Smedley though, I can't help but think it is a plea not to change the engine formula.



#9 George Costanza

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Posted 17 December 2014 - 15:55

Flavio Briatore bought Ligier so to get his hands on the Renault engine. Look at Ford in 1993. McLaren usually was a few iterations behind the Benetton.

And back then, the driver made a bigger difference so Schumacher could compensate.  ;)

 

 

Ontopic

Odd statement from Smedley though, I can't help but think it is a plea not to change the engine formula.

 

Very true about that. Drivers make a bit more of a difference in the 90s than today in terms of overall performance, IMO. (Except for Fernando Alonso at Ferrari in 2010-2014. He's the only driver that really shown that true potential of driving like Senna or Schumacher would).

 

As for Rob, I think he's making it a bit much. Mercedes have far better drivers than Williams does.



#10 Timothy

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Posted 17 December 2014 - 15:57

I find this a bit odd.... You mean that back in 1995 when Benetton and Williams shared Renault engines, and (Williams in the 1990s was the de facto Renault effort) yet Benetton beat Williams by a good margin in 1995. But because Benetton was a "customer" they can't beat them? Renault didn't buy Benetton until 2001 season so then you can say by '01 it was a factory effort...  Now granted, it was because of Ross, Rory and Michael Schuamcher that did that, but if they stayed on in 1996, I am sure they would have beaten Williams yet again.

 

Personally, I don't think you comparing apples with apples here. Renault was just a supplier like Mercedes was to Mclaren before they entered the fray, they would have been happy with either winning. This is the silver arrows we talking about here, a fully fledged works team with only one goal in sight, to win. Considering all the resources ploughed into this project, you'd be naive expecting Williams or any other customer team to receive equal support or HP for that matter.



#11 George Costanza

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Posted 17 December 2014 - 16:00

Personally, I don't think you comparing apples with apples here. Renault was just a supplier like Mercedes was to Mclaren before they entered the fray, they would have been happy with either winning. This is the silver arrows we talking about here, a fully fledged works team with only one goal in sight, to win. Considering all the resources ploughed into this project, you'd be naive expecting Williams or any other customer team to receive equal support or HP for that matter.

It might be not a fair comparsion, but Mercedes have to be crazy if they want McLaren Honda to beat them, they rather of course see Williams Mercedes do the winning if they can't.

 

Or any other Mercedes powered car for example, obviously the factory gets the first effort, but say that factory have problems... One should expect them to support the customers.


Edited by George Costanza, 17 December 2014 - 16:02.


#12 DaddyCool

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Posted 17 December 2014 - 16:03

I think Williams have got a bit carried away with their Abu Dhabi result.

 

Were they closer to Merc than in Oz? Sure. Were they realistically challenging for a win in A.D.? No, unless you consider Hamilton cruising to the finish line like a grandma a realistic portrayal of Mercedes' performance.



#13 Brackets

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Posted 17 December 2014 - 17:16

I think Williams have got a bit carried away with their Abu Dhabi result.

Were they closer to Merc than in Oz? Sure. Were they realistically challenging for a win in A.D.? No, unless you consider Hamilton cruising to the finish line like a grandma a realistic portrayal of Mercedes' performance.

I ‘liked’ this, because that is indeed what happened in the race, but AD qualifying was too close for comfort between Williams and MGP (from MGPs point of view, that is).

"It is up to us, the other teams, whether we are Williams, whether we are Red Bull, whether we are Ferrari, to go out and to do a better job than everybody else."

Gotta love how McLaren is forgotten in that list. Yeah, “forgotten”. That’s what actually happened there. No, seriously, I’m telling you guys! He plain forgot about McLaren! No, really! Oh do stop laughing already!

#14 Seanspeed

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Posted 17 December 2014 - 17:42

Most of the gains made on Mercedes happened early on. After that, it was status quo all the way through the end of the season for the most part.

I think Mercedes has too big an advantage to be properly challenged in 2015. Its not impossible, but I don't think its likely with such minimal technical regulation changes. Beyond 2015, who knows, but I still suspect that without more notable rule changes or opening up of the regulations, Mercedes will have the monopoly on the important powerplant advantage for the foreseeable future.

#15 MissingTheApex

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Posted 17 December 2014 - 17:53

I agree Sean, to be honest, the rules allow Mercedes to try anything out at its base to destruction, fit it to their cars knowing it works then simply give the customers it and let them work out how to fit it all in.  They did it with new exhausts in the year IIRC; tested them to perfection at Brackley then gave them to the other teams  at the start of a race weekend, knowing they'd not be able to get the best from them for a few races.  Genius really.  I can genuinely see Mercedes making lots of changes over the winter, perfecting them, then dropping them into the customer teams in Australia.

 

I have £1000 on Hamilton at 8/15 and £500 on Rosberg EW at 2/1 and it's the easiest money I will ever make.  No one is challenging Mercedes next season, I believe.  There's a slight chance of Honda ruining the party, but i genuinely doubt it.  



#16 DutchQuicksilver

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Posted 17 December 2014 - 18:37

Smedley is forgetting that Mercedes hasn't really been pushed all season long. My guess is they still had a few tenths in them if needed. No, unless there's massive rule changes, Mercedes will be quite dominant in the next few seasons.



#17 paulogman

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Posted 17 December 2014 - 21:57

I agree Sean, to be honest, the rules allow Mercedes to try anything out at its base to destruction, fit it to their cars knowing it works then simply give the customers it and let them work out how to fit it all in. They did it with new exhausts in the year IIRC; tested them to perfection at Brackley then gave them to the other teams at the start of a race weekend, knowing they'd not be able to get the best from them for a few races. Genius really. I can genuinely see Mercedes making lots of changes over the winter, perfecting them, then dropping them into the customer teams in Australia.

I have £1000 on Hamilton at 8/15 and £500 on Rosberg EW at 2/1 and it's the easiest money I will ever make. No one is challenging Mercedes next season, I believe. There's a slight chance of Honda ruining the party, but i genuinely doubt it.

I don't think it is quite that simple. Williams is after all paying Mercedes to supply them with engines, and it be would naive of williams to not have something in the contract giving them access to technical details at least somewhat in advance.

#18 BullHead

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Posted 17 December 2014 - 22:38

It's a bit of a non statement really. The first bit is obvious "nobody stays dominant", the second bit more interesting, alluding that his team are closing the gap. There are a few teams closing that gap, more notably Red Bull I think. Still, he has to big up his team, doesn't he? As would any key member talking to the media.

#19 mercedessurearepopularnow

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Posted 17 December 2014 - 22:54

It's a bit of a non statement really. The first bit is obvious "nobody stays dominant", the second bit more interesting, alluding that his team are closing the gap. There are a few teams closing that gap, more notably Red Bull I think. Still, he has to big up his team, doesn't he? As would any key member talking to the media.

I don't see how, by the sounds of it the Renault/Mercedes engine difference will just mean they're considerably further behind next year, i doubt they'll be anywhere near the podium, more like regularly going out in Q2 and being lapped.



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#20 RCRC

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Posted 17 December 2014 - 23:26

Just posturing for WMSC & 2016 rules.



#21 BullHead

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Posted 17 December 2014 - 23:30

I don't see how, by the sounds of it the Renault/Mercedes engine difference will just mean they're considerably further behind next year, i doubt they'll be anywhere near the podium, more like regularly going out in Q2 and being lapped.


There has been talk of Mercedes increasing their power advantage, true, but given the track performance this year by Ric, I think you exaggerate the 2015 prospect.

#22 ForzaGTR

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Posted 18 December 2014 - 00:33

It will.



#23 alframsey

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Posted 18 December 2014 - 00:56

The thing people forget about the gap at the last race is that, given what had happened to Nico, Lewis wasn't driving at full pace or even near it. He refused to allow the team to turn the power up on a couple of occasions, I imagine that clouded the true gap in race pace somewhat.



#24 aramos

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Posted 18 December 2014 - 01:26

He does have a point. By the end of the season their dominance was drastically lower than it was at the start of the year.



#25 aramos

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Posted 18 December 2014 - 01:27

The thing people forget about the gap at the last race is that, given what had happened to Nico, Lewis wasn't driving at full pace or even near it. He refused to allow the team to turn the power up on a couple of occasions, I imagine that clouded the true gap in race pace somewhat.

 

It wasn't just that race. At races prior the cars behind them were starting to push into their pit window. Was it the USGP that they essentially had to cover Massa? 

 

At Spa also Ricciardo essentially out drove Rosberg despite him only suffering a 10-15 second disadvantage in the first stint.

 

They're still fast, but the other cars are getting closer. 


Edited by aramos, 18 December 2014 - 01:28.


#26 BillBald

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Posted 18 December 2014 - 02:10

He does have a point. By the end of the season their dominance was drastically lower than it was at the start of the year.

 

At the start of the year, Merc were much better prepared than most other teams, so obviously they were going to lose some of their advantage as the others sorted themselves out. If you take Austria instead of Australia as the comparison point, it seems to me that Merc have opened the gap since then, if anything.

 

Ferrari and Force India lost a lot of ground in the 2nd half of the season, McLaren gained a little, depending on the track. And Williams stayed about the same.



#27 Maximus1

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Posted 18 December 2014 - 05:30

Smedley obviously doesn't watch races. In Abu Dhabi, Lewis was 10 secs ahead of Massa and 2 Ahead of Nico before Nicos problem developed. He just cruised the whole race and Willams now think because they tried an Alternate strategy that suddenly they are closing the Gap. I was in AD live and one think that struck me was how easy it was for Nico and Lewis to drive that car. Almost effortlessly and yet other driver were almost in a steering fight with their cars. If anything at all the Gap was bigger in AD than in Oz



#28 taran

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Posted 18 December 2014 - 11:09

Personally, I don't think you comparing apples with apples here. Renault was just a supplier like Mercedes was to Mclaren before they entered the fray, they would have been happy with either winning. This is the silver arrows we talking about here, a fully fledged works team with only one goal in sight, to win. Considering all the resources ploughed into this project, you'd be naive expecting Williams or any other customer team to receive equal support or HP for that matter.

 

Sorry, but you're wrong here.

 

Renault entered into a partnership with Williams when they returned in 1989. They also contributed significantly to Williams' budget. It was a full works effort and Williams got the engines for free!

 

It took political influence/interference before Renault would supply engines to Ligier in 1992 and those were a step behind in specification. Even with the possibility of Alain Prost driving for them! And Ligier had to pay for them (more than 25% of its entire budget).

 

In 1995, Benetton got the Renault contract from Ligier (which had been acquired by Flavio Briatore to that end) and managed to convince Renault to give them equal engines as they had the reigning worldchampion (Schumacher) and would pay for the privilege while Williams still got them for free....

 

 

And McLaren's original deal with Mercedes was also far more than just an engine supply. Mercedes eventually acquired shares in the team and bought the full livery rights in 1997 so they could turn McLaren into silver arrows....That's far more involvement than just providing engines.....



#29 MissingTheApex

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Posted 18 December 2014 - 11:12

Smedley is forgetting that Mercedes hasn't really been pushed all season long. My guess is they still had a few tenths in them if needed. No, unless there's massive rule changes, Mercedes will be quite dominant in the next few seasons.

 

Singapore showed me what pace that W05 had when it needed it.  23 laps at almost a second a lap quicker than anything else.

 

I don't think it is quite that simple. Williams is after all paying Mercedes to supply them with engines, and it be would naive of williams to not have something in the contract giving them access to technical details at least somewhat in advance.

 

It doesn't.  McLaren complained specifically about the log exhausts be given to them at the beginning of the Spanish GP that it had no idea about. That's where they said there's a great deal of benefit to being a works team rather than a customer one.



#30 alframsey

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Posted 18 December 2014 - 12:18

It wasn't just that race. At races prior the cars behind them were starting to push into their pit window. Was it the USGP that they essentially had to cover Massa?

 

At Spa also Ricciardo essentially out drove Rosberg despite him only suffering a 10-15 second disadvantage in the first stint.

 

They're still fast, but the other cars are getting closer. 

I can't remember clearly but I was under the impression that they were entertaining the possibility of covering Massa but, in the end, they were fine. I could be wrong there though as for some reason the USGP is very hazy in my mind.

 

I do hope that the other teams close the gap though and that we see a few different winners again, in my mind if the the other teams are closer and getting in between Lewis and Nico next season then Lewis will have a much easier time of sealing the championship... :p



#31 Jon83

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Posted 18 December 2014 - 13:27

They were miles ahead in Brazil and Austin. 

 

If Hamilton had needed to up his pace in Abu-Dhabi, Massa would have gotten nowhere near him. 



#32 aramos

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Posted 18 December 2014 - 13:35

Hence McLaren switching.  There was talk after Monza that the engine modes that Williams can use are managed by Merc (the Merc rep etc) and usually that's no big deal but when you are battling against that same team for podiums or a victory..

There was a few tracks this season that I was genuinely surprised by the pace of the Williams relative to the Mercedes.  



#33 velgajski1

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Posted 18 December 2014 - 14:09

Perhaps dominance won't last long - that doesn't mean though that  in the course of next couple of seasons they won't win most or even all WDC/WCC titles.



#34 jonpollak

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Posted 18 December 2014 - 23:38

Well, here's a part of the puzzle that will be hard to replace.
http://bbc.com/sport/formula1/30541422

Jp

#35 pingu666

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Posted 19 December 2014 - 00:07

tbh im not sure how good jock is anyways



#36 jonpollak

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Posted 19 December 2014 - 01:10

I am.

#37 hollowstar

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Posted 19 December 2014 - 05:32

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Jock Clear is responsible for race day performance (of just one of the two cars) but not the W05/W06 raw speed. I don't think his departure could hurt Mercedes' pace per se, but it will definitely help Ferrari to have him and learn many of Mercedes' secrets.

#38 jonpollak

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Posted 19 December 2014 - 06:13

True ...
I was thinking more about the effect on his driver.

#39 MissingTheApex

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Posted 19 December 2014 - 07:44

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Jock Clear is responsible for race day performance (of just one of the two cars) but not the W05/W06 raw speed. I don't think his departure could hurt Mercedes' pace per se, but it will definitely help Ferrari to have him and learn many of Mercedes' secrets.

 

Jock has plenty of experience of process at Brackley, so heading to what we believe is his new role will allow him to change that about, which will help Ferrari.  As for making a difference to Hamilton, I think Bono and him are closer.  I may be wrong, but Jock moved 'upstairs' per se, so has less impact on Hamilton.

 

IMHO.



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#40 Timstr11

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Posted 19 December 2014 - 07:59

Jock has plenty of experience of process at Brackley, so heading to what we believe is his new role will allow him to change that about, which will help Ferrari.  As for making a difference to Hamilton, I think Bono and him are closer.  I may be wrong, but Jock moved 'upstairs' per se, so has less impact on Hamilton.

 

IMHO.

 

Clear is Hamilton's performance engineer. How can it have less of an impact? This is about engineering and having a deep understanding of driver preference in relation to car setup. Not about 'closeness'.


Edited by Timstr11, 19 December 2014 - 07:59.


#41 MissingTheApex

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Posted 19 December 2014 - 08:54

Clear is Hamilton's performance engineer. How can it have less of an impact? This is about engineering and having a deep understanding of driver preference in relation to car setup. Not about 'closeness'.

 

No, he's one of three performance engineers for Hamilton, each of whom possess that deep understanding; he doesn't operate as a monopoly.  The only area that he's key focus is in telemetry, data and Hamilton.  Time for someone else to step up; i am sure there's plenty of talent n their pool.  And please, are you telling me that closeness to an engineer isn't important?

 

Please also note that Mercedes don't seem too upset at him leaving...


Edited by MissingTheApex, 19 December 2014 - 08:58.


#42 Timstr11

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Posted 19 December 2014 - 09:35

No, he's one of three performance engineers for Hamilton, each of whom possess that deep understanding; he doesn't operate as a monopoly.  The only area that he's key focus is in telemetry, data and Hamilton.  Time for someone else to step up; i am sure there's plenty of talent n their pool.  And please, are you telling me that closeness to an engineer isn't important?

 

Please also note that Mercedes don't seem too upset at him leaving...

 

You're ignoring the fact he is the senior performance engineer. The others are his deputies.



#43 MissingTheApex

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Posted 19 December 2014 - 09:37

You're ignoring the fact he is the senior performance engineer. The others are his deputies.

 

No I am not, not at all.  I am simply saying it's not going to make much difference.  One of the others will be promoted; they're not sad to see him leave.  His only direct role with Hamilton was going over the telemetry.  

 

He's moving, it happens, someone else within Hamilton's team will get his gig and someone will come in.  I don't see any issues in it.



#44 Timstr11

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Posted 19 December 2014 - 09:51

No I am not, not at all.  I am simply saying it's not going to make much difference.  One of the others will be promoted; they're not sad to see him leave.  His only direct role with Hamilton was going over the telemetry.

 

He's moving, it happens, someone else within Hamilton's team will get his gig and someone will come in.  I don't see any issues in it.

 

If only it was that simple.



#45 MissingTheApex

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Posted 19 December 2014 - 09:54

If only it was that simple.

 

But it is, isn't it?  Please explain to me how much more different it is.  Please explain how one man can make that much difference, when we both know another from inside his team will now be performing that role.  Who's to say that the new one will not be better?  We don't know, it's a genuine unknown.



#46 Timstr11

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Posted 19 December 2014 - 09:59

But it is, isn't it?  Please explain to me how much more different it is.  Please explain how one man can make that much difference, when we both know another from inside his team will now be performing that role.  Who's to say that the new one will not be better?  We don't know, it's a genuine unknown.

 

With your logic, why do teams hire engineers from other teams? They can just promote from within, right?

It's about experience and skills. Not everybody is at the same level. If they have someone with the same potential or level, great. But it is always a loss if one of your best people leaves, in any business.

This is the last I'm saying on this as we;re veering off-topic.



#47 MissingTheApex

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Posted 19 December 2014 - 11:00

With your logic, why do teams hire engineers from other teams? They can just promote from within, right?

It's about experience and skills. Not everybody is at the same level. If they have someone with the same potential or level, great. But it is always a loss if one of your best people leaves, in any business.

This is the last I'm saying on this as we;re veering off-topic.

 

This is a straw man, for as far as I can see, they are promoting from within and people do learn off others.  It is not a definite that it is always a loss, it's is a definite that it is always an opportunity though.

 

We are off topic, but I don't see any great deal of panic over this.  If he was such a great member of staff surely they'd have offered him the promotion he craved in order to keep him, no?



#48 sportingcp

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Posted 19 December 2014 - 11:36

Last year, it was not a surprise to see the Mercedes at the top, since the pre-season it started to become clear the Mercedes PU had the advantage. So it was predictable that Mercedes would be strong (even if not so strong) and the other Mercedes powered cars would have that advantage too. But I was surprised specially with the way Williams developed over the year. They were quite closer to Mercedes than in the start of the year, specially in Qualifying, and their development was better than Ferrari/McLaren for example. But I don´t think they will be the team to break the Mercedes dominance. I only can see two teams breaking that dominance: RB (but Renault will have to improve a lot their power unit) or McLaren-Honda, if they get everything absolutely right, which will be very difficult. Williams don´t have the conditions to reach there and Ferrari, well.. I don´t know what to say about Ferrari.

 

I´m also very curious to see what Lotus can do next year.



#49 Massa_f1

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Posted 19 December 2014 - 12:11

It wont last forever, but it is here to stay for at least next season. I am fairly certain we can already say Hamilton or Rosberg will be champion next year, and the season is still months away from even starting.



#50 EndlessMotion

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Posted 19 December 2014 - 13:17

The only way the others are really going to significantly close the gap next year is if Merecedes were to stand still, which obviously they won't. If they ran the W05 next year I'd expect the others to make up a chunk of the deficit, but you have to expect Mercedes to make another step over the winter. Sure, they were better prepared at the start of the year but theres still plenty of room for improvement for all the teams, Mercedes included, with it being only the second year of the current regs next season.

 

I'd love to see all of the others make a massive step and be up there with Mercedes next year. After thoroughly enjoying the Hamilton Rosberg private WDC battle this year (and with my preferred driver taking the title) it's high time we saw some proper battles for the win between various drivers from various teams again. Somehow I don't see it happening for another couple of seasons yet though.