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Autosport Magazine All-Time Top 20 [2002-2014] & Top 50 drivers of 2014


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#51 JimiKart

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Posted 18 December 2014 - 23:43

ROOKIE, eh? :D It's been a while this has been shouted around here.

 

I know it's unpopular, but maybe it was taken into account that he blew it in the last races, however impressive his season up to that point was.

 

Lewis... you'rearticle-0-018A936A00000578-291_634x389.j doing it wrong... sorry but not impressive



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#52 sennafan24

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Posted 19 December 2014 - 00:14

At the risk of sounding like a bleeding heart fan. Didn't Lewis only make a mistake at China? His issues at Brazil were related to mechanical issues weren't they?

 

Still, Lewis beat/tied Alonso as a rookie in the same machinery. I think that alone is enough for him to be a reasonable contender for driver of the year. Mind you, I have always had the opinion that the Ferrari cars of 2007/2008 could have been used better by the drivers who piloted them. Lewis and Alonso were racing against superior machinery if you ask me. I guess the same could be said about Kubica, which is why I did not scoff about him being awarded driver of the year in 2008.

 

However, some have disagreed with me in the past about this, which is fair enough.



#53 as65p

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Posted 19 December 2014 - 00:28

At the risk of sounding like a bleeding heart fan. Didn't Lewis only make a mistake at China? His issues at Brazil were related to mechanical issues weren't they?

 

Still, Lewis beat/tied Alonso as a rookie in the same machinery. I think that alone is enough for him to be a reasonable contender for driver of the year. Mind you, I have always had the opinion that the Ferrari cars of 2007/2008 could have been used better by the drivers who piloted them. Lewis and Alonso were racing against superior machinery if you ask me. I guess the same could be said about Kubica, which is why I did not scoff about him being awarded driver of the year in 2008.

 

However, some have disagreed with me in the past about this, which is fair enough.

 

To be fair, yes, Hamilton could have been 'driver of the year' in 2007, he was that impressive. Then again, Kimi was too, given that he came from nowhere and held his nerve in the end. Neither would have been a wrong choice IMO.

 

Besides, it's just a random list.  ;)



#54 as65p

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Posted 19 December 2014 - 00:32

I was slightly wondering that too. It looks like he couldn't be angrier at having this honour forced on him.

 

"Best driver?! You sicken me."

 

If you're willing to spend the time you might find that Autosport frequently uses somewhat 'awkward looking' driver pics. Just the photo editor having a bit of fun, I'd guess. And you described Alonsos expression perfectly, if I may say so. :up:   ;)



#55 DRSwing

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Posted 19 December 2014 - 04:52

I was slightly wondering that too. It looks like he couldn't be angrier at having this honour forced on him.
 
"Best driver?! You sicken me."


Not to spoil the fun or anything like that, but in case anyone is interested, the photo is taken at Le Mans, when he was standing next to his pal Mark. As to why Fernando looked rather annoyed, I have no idea, but think it could be that he was annoyed at not being teammate with his best pal at WEC, rather than having one of these type of honors forced down his throat :D

The bigger question that got me wondering is, why did Autosport not see fit to have a special photo shoot for their "All Time Top Driver"? Surely such a rare honor requires a special commemorating photo instead of a random photo from elsewhere :)

#56 ayanate

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Posted 19 December 2014 - 10:31

To be fair, yes, Hamilton could have been 'driver of the year' in 2007, he was that impressive. Then again, Kimi was too, given that he came from nowhere and held his nerve in the end. Neither would have been a wrong choice IMO.

 

Besides, it's just a random list.  ;)

I don't agree that Kimi was anything special in 2007, Mclaren simply imploded in a big way over spygate. Also, Massa had to move over in the last race in Brazil to allow Kimi become world champion. Kimi peaked in 2005/6, he has been ordinary since and is living off past glory.



#57 ayanate

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Posted 19 December 2014 - 10:50

I saw the Autosport rating and as impressive as Ricciardo has been in 2014, Autosport should not have downplayed what it took to win more than half the races in a season which Lewis accomplished. Only two drivers have won more F1 races in one season, so it is seriously impressive stuff, especially when Lewis wasn't always able to put his car on pole in many of those races he won. If you look at Seb and Michael in 2013 and 2004 respectively, you would see that they dominated from pole when they won those races. Not so for Lewis in many races, he had to work out how to get past another great driver using the same machinery in hero or zero pressure cooker situations.

 

To put in in perspective, if Ricciardo had messed up a couple of passes on Vettel and had crashed out, who really would have rounded on him? It would simply have been put down to 'learning against the great Seb was never going to be stragihtforward in a new team'. So really he had nothing to lose going for those moves and yes, they paid off, so therefore he should be second only to Lewis in driver ratings. Autosport got the order of one and two seriously wrong!



#58 petef1

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Posted 19 December 2014 - 10:54

Interesting. On the Number 1's 2002 - 2014, Jenson Button was many publications' and fans number 1 for 2004. He had a great year in the BAR, and that Ferrari was ridiculously fast in those 'custom' Bridgestone boots.


Edited by petef1, 19 December 2014 - 10:54.


#59 Myrvold

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Posted 22 December 2014 - 02:01

Loeb isn't in WRC this year but he's ranked 3rd all time.

 

 

It doesn't surprise me. F1 champions always score extra "because it's F1" but frankly WRC just doesn't have the same level of competition.

 

But Loeb has been racing in a way that could've made him ranked in all those 12 years. He is still behind Hamilton who have "missed" 4 or 5 years. And the WRC argument would've been good. The problem is that Petter Solberg is 11th! Petter did nothing before his sole win in 2002, had two brilliant seasons in 03 and 04, and didn't really make a mark before 09 in his own private team, and then fell of again before winning WRX this year. If WRC is that low, how can a guy, who (sadly) haven't done much for 8 of the years being counted here, be 11th overall.

 

Autosport should not have downplayed what it took to win more than half the races in a season which Lewis accomplished. Only two drivers have won more F1 races in one season, so it is seriously impressive stuff, especially when Lewis wasn't always able to put his car on pole in many of those races he won.

To put in in perspective, if Ricciardo had messed up a couple of passes on Vettel and had crashed out,

But he only one 8% more races than Damon Hill did in 96, and I seem to read that he was, maybe together with Villeneuve the worst F1 champ of all time. And the fact that "one-lap wonder" Lewis, was beaten by his team-mate more than not in qual, isn't that impressive either. It was a very good season, but he wasn't that much better than Rosberg.

 

If is the correct word here "If Ricciardo had". But he didn't. So those if's and but's doesn't count.



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#60 lbennie

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Posted 22 December 2014 - 02:55

So autosports top 11 F1 drivers since 2002

 

1 Alonso
2 Hamilton
3 Vettel
4 Raikkonen
5 Schumacher
6 Button
7 Montoya
8 Kubica
9 Webber
10 Ricciardo
11 Fisichella

Edited by lbennie, 22 December 2014 - 02:56.


#61 Brazzers

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Posted 22 December 2014 - 03:00

At the risk of sounding like a bleeding heart fan. Didn't Lewis only make a mistake at China? His issues at Brazil were related to mechanical issues weren't they?

 

Still, Lewis beat/tied Alonso as a rookie in the same machinery. I think that alone is enough for him to be a reasonable contender for driver of the year. Mind you, I have always had the opinion that the Ferrari cars of 2007/2008 could have been used better by the drivers who piloted them. Lewis and Alonso were racing against superior machinery if you ask me. I guess the same could be said about Kubica, which is why I did not scoff about him being awarded driver of the year in 2008.

 

However, some have disagreed with me in the past about this, which is fair enough.

 

Yeah agreed with this 100%. I think Alonso's demolition derby of Massa and Raikkonen imo shows the F2007/F2008 cars were superior to the McLarens.  



#62 aramos

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Posted 22 December 2014 - 03:18

Yeah agreed with this 100%. I think Alonso's demolition derby of Massa and Raikkonen imo shows the F2007/F2008 cars were superior to the McLarens.  

 

Yep. At the time you would be forgiven for looking at them and thinking "Here are 2 fairly equal cars with 4 fairly equal drivers" but in hindsight Alonso only barely scraping ahead of Massa over race distance is not what you would get given equal machinery.



#63 George Costanza

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Posted 22 December 2014 - 04:10

From 2002-2006, Michael Schumacher was indeed the best...     

 

From 1995-2000, he was by far the best anyone has ever seen. Michael at his very best would beat Fernando any time....

 

He was already beaten Ayrton in 1992...

I have no doubt he would have won the 2007 and 2008 Championships with ease...

 

I am fairly sure had Michael returned to F1 in 2009 with Ross Brawn (with the Brawn GP F1 car) he wins the championship.


Edited by George Costanza, 22 December 2014 - 04:16.


#64 Myrvold

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Posted 22 December 2014 - 04:13

Yeah agreed with this 100%. I think Alonso's demolition derby of Massa and Raikkonen imo shows the F2007/F2008 cars were superior to the McLarens.  

 

 

Yep. At the time you would be forgiven for looking at them and thinking "Here are 2 fairly equal cars with 4 fairly equal drivers" but in hindsight Alonso only barely scraping ahead of Massa over race distance is not what you would get given equal machinery.

 

But then we are back to "times change". How they drove compared to each other in 07, isn't the same as 2014.

So, let's have a little Frentzen > Hill > Villeneuve > Frentzen > Hill > Villeneuve -ish session here shall we. I will however be picking what fits me best, as... well, that's how it is, you tend to pick what fits you best in a situation.

So Hamilton > Alonso > Fisichella > Button > Hamilton ?

Then Kovalainen > Fisichella
And Pic > Kovalainen.

So in a direct comparison, through years. Pic > Hamilton ? Because Kovalainen > Fisichella, Fisichella > Button and Button > Hamilton.


Edited by Myrvold, 22 December 2014 - 04:17.


#65 aramos

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Posted 22 December 2014 - 05:22

But then we are back to "times change". How they drove compared to each other in 07, isn't the same as 2014.

So, let's have a little Frentzen > Hill > Villeneuve > Frentzen > Hill > Villeneuve -ish session here shall we. I will however be picking what fits me best, as... well, that's how it is, you tend to pick what fits you best in a situation.

So Hamilton > Alonso > Fisichella > Button > Hamilton ?

Then Kovalainen > Fisichella
And Pic > Kovalainen.

So in a direct comparison, through years. Pic > Hamilton ? Because Kovalainen > Fisichella, Fisichella > Button and Button > Hamilton.

 

I'm aware that over time driver ability can change. But it does look very much like Hamilton/Alonso are a superior pairing to Massa/Raikkonen.



#66 Myrvold

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Posted 22 December 2014 - 17:21

I'm aware that over time driver ability can change. But it does look very much like Hamilton/Alonso are a superior pairing to Massa/Raikkonen.

 

I won't say it is that easy. Look at Alonso v Raikkonen. Then on Raikkonen v Grosjean, Then Grosjean v Maldonado. Then Maldonado v Barrichello, then Barrichello v Button and then Button v Hamilton. That is a more direct comparison than my last - Button and Hamilton was evenly matched, with Button taking more points overall. If Alonso/Hamilton is so superior to Massa/Raikonen, then we will see Button match, or slightly beat Alonso?

While I feel that it is very much possible that Button will be evenly matched with Alonso. I also feel that Raikkonen somehow lost it all this year, and Massa never regained himself after his injury! And that they were better in 07-08 than they are today.

At the same time Hamilton was immense in 07, but haven't really progressed too much since 07. And there seems to be something every year.



#67 sennafan24

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Posted 22 December 2014 - 18:02

He was already beaten Ayrton in 1992...

Context my man.

 

Schumi - 1 mechanical DNF's

 

Senna  - 5 mechanical DNF's (plus an added non-score due to Schumi t-boning him at France, and race hindering issues at Portugal)

 

Also, Senna had 2 DNF's due to racing errors. Whilst Schumi had 3.  It was reliability that made the difference between the two that year

Michael at his very best would beat Fernando any time....

 

I have no doubt he would have won the 2007 and 2008 Championships with ease...

Disagree with the first part. But that will come down to pure opinion. 

 

Second part, I think you have a strong case. If Schumi would have stayed on, it is highly possible he would have won the title in both 2007/2008. I don't think Massa would have closed the gap enough to consistently beat Schumi. I think Schumi would have enough in the locker to beat Kimi as well. It could have come down to a political war, and who had the car more to their liking. I think Schumi would have won that battle over Kimi.

 

 

That is a more direct comparison than my last - Button and Hamilton was evenly matched, with Button taking more points overall. If Alonso/Hamilton is so superior to Massa/Raikonen, then we will see Button match, or slightly beat Alonso?

I disagree that Lewis and Button were "evenly matched"

 

By no means did Lewis dominate Jenson. But Lewis out-raced Button by a significant margin in 2010 and 2012. When both finished, Lewis was ahead the vast majority of the time. Jenson did beat Lewis clean in 2011 (and scored more overall points), but the points score in 2012 was greatly distorted. Jenson had bad fortune himself in 2012, but Lewis had a lot more. All luck being even, I would say Lewis should have scored 50-75 points more than Jenson is 2012. 

 

I would say Lewis was better by a modest margin. Again, by no means was it a domination. But I find the overall points do not reflect who was the better driver. As I have said previously, I think 2-1 is a fair score.

 

I think Jenson will do okay against Alonso. I think Alonso will finish ahead most weekends, but Jenson will not be dominated like Kimi was. Jenson is too consistent a driver to be truly dominated.

 

At the same time Hamilton was immense in 07, but haven't really progressed too much since 07. And there seems to be something every year.

 

 

Again, I disagree

 

Lewis has displayed a wide rang of talents since his rookie year. He manages tyres well. is good with fuel management, and has usually produced a great level of consistency.

 

Lewis is 7-1 against his teammates in years finishing ahead in the standings. Considering he had a year of Alonso, 3 years with Button, and 2 years with Nico, I think it is unfair to say "there is something every year". Lewis has been hard done by at times, but his results are still very impressive.

 

I think Lewis and Alonso are the correct choices for the two top spots (remember guys, just my opinion   ;) )


Edited by sennafan24, 22 December 2014 - 18:08.


#68 aramos

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Posted 22 December 2014 - 23:02

I won't say it is that easy. Look at Alonso v Raikkonen. Then on Raikkonen v Grosjean, Then Grosjean v Maldonado. Then Maldonado v Barrichello, then Barrichello v Button and then Button v Hamilton. That is a more direct comparison than my last - Button and Hamilton was evenly matched, with Button taking more points overall. If Alonso/Hamilton is so superior to Massa/Raikonen, then we will see Button match, or slightly beat Alonso?

While I feel that it is very much possible that Button will be evenly matched with Alonso. I also feel that Raikkonen somehow lost it all this year, and Massa never regained himself after his injury! And that they were better in 07-08 than they are today.

At the same time Hamilton was immense in 07, but haven't really progressed too much since 07. And there seems to be something every year.

 

I'm not even talking about driver comparisons directly, but its clear when you look at two double world champions, both of whom are regarded as the top 2 drivers in the sport then you have Raikkonen and Massa, neither of which are regarded that highly its fairly ridiculous to say they were similar on the driver front.



#69 HeadFirst

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Posted 22 December 2014 - 23:34

At the risk of sounding like a bleeding heart fan. Didn't Lewis only make a mistake at China? His issues at Brazil were related to mechanical issues weren't they?

 

Still, Lewis beat/tied Alonso as a rookie in the same machinery. I think that alone is enough for him to be a reasonable contender for driver of the year. Mind you, I have always had the opinion that the Ferrari cars of 2007/2008 could have been used better by the drivers who piloted them. Lewis and Alonso were racing against superior machinery if you ask me. I guess the same could be said about Kubica, which is why I did not scoff about him being awarded driver of the year in 2008.

 

However, some have disagreed with me in the past about this, which is fair enough.

 

This ^ has always been a problem for me. Not your opinion, which you are certainly entitled to, but making an accurate evaluation of the relative merits of McLaren and Ferrari in those years. In the end I decided that they were in fact equal, at least as equal as one might expect in F1. On some tracks and under certain weather conditions, the Ferrari was dominant. In other instances the McLaren ruled. I think (if I remember correctly) it all came down to how the 2 cars used their tires. Ferrari had trouble getting their tires up to temp on some occasions, where the McLaren thrived. The McLaren ran into tire wear issues, when the situation suited Ferrari. All in all, I thought it a draw. In any event, I rate those 2 seasons as being 2 of the best I have witnessed.



#70 George Costanza

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Posted 23 December 2014 - 00:57

Sennafan24, (Jim) I know about 1992 where Ayrton had his struggles with the car (compared to 1991 or 1993) it is by far his weakest season (even weaker than Lotus Renault/Honda years, IMO Ayrton could have won the 1985 WDC I think). But Michael was on the upswing and showed his grit in 1992 (I think he somewhat regress in 1993 a little bit).  As for Michael vs Fred.... Well, Michael in his absolute prime (1998 or so) would be very, very tough for Fred to beat, IMO. Now Fred's 2012-2013-2014 seasons would give a late 1990s-early 2000s Michael one hell of a run, but I think Michael's determation would win out. If he could worry Ayrton Senna way back in 1991-1992, Fred's not as mentally strong like Ayrton was, so I think Michael would beat him.

 

As for 2007-2008, yes Michael would have won the championship, because McLarens would be taking points off each other too much.... Not to mention those two Ferraris of 2007 and 2008 were bulit upon him pretty much so. The regulations were the same as before, I think in 2009 (with refuelling) he would have been a very strong contender if he raced in 2007-2008-2009 seasons.

 

He was at his VERY best in refuelling. 1991-1993 seasons he was wonderful, easily top 3, but I think during 1994 and beyond, the regulations were very good to Michael.


Edited by George Costanza, 23 December 2014 - 01:01.


#71 Myrvold

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Posted 23 December 2014 - 01:17

By no means did Lewis dominate Jenson. But Lewis out-raced Button by a significant margin in 2010 and 2012. When both finished, Lewis was ahead the vast majority of the time. Jenson did beat Lewis clean in 2011 (and scored more overall points), but the points score in 2012 was greatly distorted. Jenson had bad fortune himself in 2012, but Lewis had a lot more. All luck being even, I would say Lewis should have scored 50-75 points more than Jenson is 2012. 

 

I would say Lewis was better by a modest margin. Again, by no means was it a domination. But I find the overall points do not reflect who was the better driver. As I have said previously, I think 2-1 is a fair score.

 

Lewis has displayed a wide rang of talents since his rookie year. He manages tyres well. is good with fuel management, and has usually produced a great level of consistency.

 

Lewis is 7-1 against his teammates in years finishing ahead in the standings. Considering he had a year of Alonso, 3 years with Button, and 2 years with Nico, I think it is unfair to say "there is something every year". Lewis has been hard done by at times, but his results are still very impressive.

I guess that's where the disagreement starts. I do not "believe" in such thing as luck in motorsport. As there are so many variables, and the driver controls very much of it. So, I don't factor in "luck" and theoretical points.

 

I don't think Lewis is much better than in 07, I can't say i feel he was particulary bad at anything at all in 2007, but he haven't progressed extremely much either. If he'd had a "normal" progression, then he would beat Alonso heavily these days.

The "something every year" wasn't directed at the driving, more political, arguments, bad jokes (because I'm black), all the Massa-episodes. So, well, I guess you could say that I went OT there.

 

I'm not even talking about driver comparisons directly, but its clear when you look at two double world champions, both of whom are regarded as the top 2 drivers in the sport then you have Raikkonen and Massa, neither of which are regarded that highly its fairly ridiculous to say they were similar on the driver front.

I don't think that a Massa at his best (07-08) and Raikkonen at his best (03-07, 12-13) would be beaten easily by Alonso/Hamilton. I don't really think Massa would've had a title anyway. However, Raikkonen had a championship winning car 4 times, won one championship (03, 05, 07 & 08 is the years I count). Hamilton have in my count had 5 (07,08,10,12,14) Where one year he "only" had to beat a teammate. So in term of accomplishments I feel that Raikkonen and Hamilton isn't far off, and I do believe that a Raikkonen at his best, and a Massa at his best was very evenly matched. Massa just had his top at a bad time career wise.

 

Alonso, Hamilton, Raikkonen and Massa anno 2014 in a straight fight is a completely different discussion for a different thread.



#72 aramos

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Posted 23 December 2014 - 01:31

 

I don't think that a Massa at his best (07-08) and Raikkonen at his best (03-07, 12-13) would be beaten easily by Alonso/Hamilton. I don't really think Massa would've had a title anyway. However, Raikkonen had a championship winning car 4 times, won one championship (03, 05, 07 & 08 is the years I count). Hamilton have in my count had 5 (07,08,10,12,14) Where one year he "only" had to beat a teammate. So in term of accomplishments I feel that Raikkonen and Hamilton isn't far off, and I do believe that a Raikkonen at his best, and a Massa at his best was very evenly matched. Massa just had his top at a bad time career wise.

 

Alonso, Hamilton, Raikkonen and Massa anno 2014 in a straight fight is a completely different discussion for a different thread.

 

Depends what you mean 'easily'. The combination of Alonso/Hamilton is far stronger than Raikkonen/Massa regardless of what season we're talking about.



#73 sennafan24

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Posted 23 December 2014 - 02:15

I guess that's where the disagreement starts. I do not "believe" in such thing as luck in motorsport. As there are so many variables, and the driver controls very much of it. So, I don't factor in "luck" and theoretical points.

Hmm

 

I disagree if we examine Lewis's 2012. When we consider the team under-fueling his car at Spain, slow pit-stops, and various mechanical issues. I do not see how these can be placed on Lewis's doorstep. I really do not see how Lewis could make his team do faster pit-stops, or make sure his machinery was bullet-proof.


Edited by sennafan24, 23 December 2014 - 02:29.


#74 1Devil1

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Posted 23 December 2014 - 09:48

I don't know how is it possible to don't factor luck in ? Schumacher was responsible for his car falling apart at the beginning of 2012? We know he was one of the hardest workers, motivated his engineers, being said, what he possible could have done to prevent mechanical failures of his cars, going to Brackly and build his car by himself. The same goes for Hamilton in 2012. The real problem with these discussion is the amount of points drivers lose through bad luck. You get weird discussion, mostly driven by fans, that drivers did lose so much points, here and there, everything you could possible imagine will be looked at, while the bad luck of the other drivers are overlooked or different definitions of bad luck are applied in that cases. But I would never go that far and say the drivers has a lot under control, in fact he has not, only his driving, and in some special cases like Schumacher in his Ferrari days, he could say and do something about the processes in the background. 


Edited by 1Devil1, 23 December 2014 - 15:34.


#75 velgajski1

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Posted 23 December 2014 - 10:07

I'm fine with not factoring luck, but then you can just list everyone by number of titles won, followed by number of races won, etc. and you have your list.



#76 blackmme

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Posted 23 December 2014 - 13:07

Lewis... you'rearticle-0-018A936A00000578-291_634x389.j doing it wrong... sorry but not impressive

Interesting that you post that picture, thats the carcass of the tyre on the right hand rear wheel.

Seriously impressive to have kept that on the road for so long and then get caught out, happens to the best of them....

 

I've never made a single mistake driving a F1 car, then again I've never driven one.....

 

Regards Mike



#77 BigBadBless

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Posted 23 December 2014 - 14:45

But then we are back to "times change". How they drove compared to each other in 07, isn't the same as 2014.

So, let's have a little Frentzen > Hill > Villeneuve > Frentzen > Hill > Villeneuve -ish session here shall we. I will however be picking what fits me best, as... well, that's how it is, you tend to pick what fits you best in a situation.

So Hamilton > Alonso > Fisichella > Button > Hamilton ?

Then Kovalainen > Fisichella
And Pic > Kovalainen.

So in a direct comparison, through years. Pic > Hamilton ? Because Kovalainen > Fisichella, Fisichella > Button and Button > Hamilton.

 

No matter what mental gymnastics and flexible linguistic you use, Massa is not even remotely close to Alonso in terms of consistency and speed, and never has been. 

 

 

Hamilton have in my count had 5 (07,08,10,12,14) 

 

That's why until this year he had never won the WCC with his team right? His cars were just dominantly fast year after year  :confused: . (This is even when Alonso and Hamilton were paired, two of the top drivers on the grid [even if spygate had not removed their points], as well as Hamilton and Button, two WDCs and one is supposed to be blazing fast and the other incredibly consistent. So where was the WCC? Simple, the car wasn't nearly fast enough to outright contest the WDC, the sheer fact that it was in contention in some of those years is only in the same way that Alonso dragged his Ferrari into contention. It doesn't mean that the actual car is brilliant, just that the driver is extracting MUCH closer to 100% out of his package than certain others.).

 

 

I guess that's where the disagreement starts. I do not "believe" in such thing as luck in motorsport. As there are so many variables, and the driver controls very much of it. So, I don't factor in "luck" and theoretical points.

 

What do you mean you don't believe in luck? It unarguably, objectively and most definitely plays a large part in motorsport. Saying you "don't believe in luck" is like saying you don't believe that Bernie Ecclestone exists. You might not like that it does, but burying your head won't change it. 


Edited by BigBadBless, 23 December 2014 - 19:54.


#78 David Lightman

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Posted 23 December 2014 - 15:12

Fisichella?!?!

#79 noikeee

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Posted 23 December 2014 - 15:56

Fisi was rated very highly in the period before his move to Renault. He probably scored big points in 2004 hence why he made the overall top 20. Even by 2005 some people weren't entirely sure he was that much worse than Alonso, and maybe just had an off year.