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Cyril Abiteboul (Renault): Redbull chassis also to blame. Disappointed in level of cooperation


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#101 Timstr11

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Posted 06 January 2015 - 12:09

Paddy Lowe: Importance of aero underrated

 

This is what I've been trying to say all along where BOTH Redbull and Renault dropped the ball last year, as these are typical areas that touch on both chassis and engine, requiring intensive collaboration between engine and chassis designer.



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#102 OO7

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Posted 06 January 2015 - 12:56

Paddy Lowe: Importance of aero underrated

 

This is what I've been trying to say all along where BOTH Redbull and Renault dropped the ball last year, as these are typical areas that touch on both chassis and engine, requiring intensive collaboration between engine and chassis designer.

Excellent article, thanks for posting it Tim. :up:

 

In the engine thread during the course of the 2014 season, there was a lot of talk of the RB10 having the best chassis aerodynamically and that it was simply being hamstrung by its Renault PU.  The RB bosses mentioned Barcelona as the circuit that they would display their aero prowess and fight against the might of Mercedes, then it was Monaco, before Hungary and finally Singapore.

 

The fact is the Mercedes W05 as some have stated since early in the season, had fantastic aero, perhaps the class of the field.

 

It was interesting to hear Paddy touch on the cooling which is something I attempted to followed closely throughout 2014.  I think I mentioned in the W05 thread that the rads were only very slightly larger than those on the 2013 car.  With the W04, the gearbox cooling and oil cooling rads were fitted in tandem with the main rads.  The W05 situated these ancillaries above the exhaust.  I wonder what we'll see with the W06, whether a layout as present on the W04 will be possible while improving aero.  I do expect the 'ears' that accompanied the engine airbox inlet to have disappeared.



#103 n0zz

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Posted 06 January 2015 - 15:13

In the engine thread during the course of the 2014 season, there was a lot of talk of the RB10 having the best chassis aerodynamically and that it was simply being hamstrung by its Renault PU.  The RB bosses mentioned Barcelona as the circuit that they would display their aero prowess and fight against the might of Mercedes, then it was Monaco, before Hungary and finally Singapore.
 
When it became clear the Merc power gap is huge, RB was forced to compromise their setups to have enough max speed to be able to overtake.


#104 Timstr11

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Posted 06 January 2015 - 17:27

 

 
When it became clear the Merc power gap is huge, RB was forced to compromise their setups to have enough max speed to be able to overtake.

 

 

You're missing the point. Lowe is making the point that a significant part of their advantage is through aero, which not only comes from external aero shapes, but also internal aerodynamics (underneath the bodywork).

This is a function of how engine and ancillaries are layed out, shaped, cooled and installed inside the chassis. The marriage between chassis and PU basically.


Edited by Timstr11, 06 January 2015 - 17:39.


#105 garagetinkerer

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Posted 06 January 2015 - 17:43

I am starting to think Renault wasn't far from Mercedes power wise.

 

:wave: No disrespect, but at one time the difference was reportedly more than a 100 bhp in favour of Mercedes... so if that's not 'far,' i don't know what is.



#106 garagetinkerer

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Posted 06 January 2015 - 17:47

-When and where did Horner place 100% blame on Renault for the season? Yes he complained about them lots - as you would do with a supplier who your performance is utterly reliant on, and who freely admit delivering an inferior product to what they agreed on, costing you millions.

 

-Renault themselves had made plenty of positive statements about their 'works' partnership. Until they failed to deliver their side of the bargain (and lets point out that RBR exceeded by far, any other Renault powered teams efforts.

 

 

 

-Absolutely and it assisted Abiteboul's directly at Caterham too...  But he seems to be complaining that they either help too much, or not enough...  :down:

 

 
 

 

-Why is that a problem to you? Why shouldn't a company blame a supplier for failing to make SLAs or deliver promises? Red Bull at their own cost provided significant extra staff and resources, and they (Renault Sport) were still unable to achieve anywhere close to parity.

 

-Any comments on Lotus AMuS claims of 86hp/18kg deficit? No amount of aero or mechanical can overcome this on a power circuit.

 

 
 

 

-I guess he and fellow Frenchmen are edgy about Red Bull parachuting in Ilmor/Mario Illien to fix their woes. He was touted as leading an in-house program for RBR earlier in the season, or a RBR buy out of Renault Sport/Toyota/Cosworth.

:up:

It seems to be just another thread where people are dumping on RBR and Horner... nothing new at autosport.


Edited by garagetinkerer, 06 January 2015 - 17:48.


#107 garagetinkerer

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Posted 06 January 2015 - 17:50

Word is that the Mercedes ERS is not the best on the grid.

Source... last i heard theirs is the best.



#108 garagetinkerer

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Posted 06 January 2015 - 18:10

I'm disappointed in both sides of this. Why did not any of the parties realize that integration was going to be key in the new formula? That stuff should have been sorted about two years ago. Both Renault's and RBR's aproach to the new regulation have been unprofessional IMO

Renault and RBR have been working together now for some years... and for me it is quite difficult to think that it is a problem that arose out of the blue. On the other hand, what Horner said can easily be substantiated.



#109 garagetinkerer

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Posted 06 January 2015 - 18:14

How Red Bull's relationship to Renault works:

 

Red Bull win: It's all down to the chassis

Red Bull don't win: It's all down to the engine

 

In fact Red Bull used to slag off the Renault engine even when they were winning. I'm not actually sure what Renault get out of this relationship. They're like a battered housewife who keeps going back to their abusive husband because 'this time it'll be different'. :well:

I can't quite remember that being said... would you like to find and quote even a single source for that, one that's not from 2014? On the other hand, i have always seen it mentioned here in the forums that the RBR car was the best car/ chassis... On the other hand, i remember around 2010-11, how RBR were constantly praising their partner, ironically enough, it was Renault.



#110 garagetinkerer

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Posted 06 January 2015 - 18:20

I think the most apparent chassis fail RBR made (and perhaps the only, who knows) is having to put a hammer and a hack-saw to the RB10 during winter testing. This to provide enough cooling for the PU and related components, which it didn't receive due to the tight packaging.

 

The slagging off is downright bizarre, especially since it's been going on all year. I'm quite surprised, in fact, that Renault have kept quiet so long. RBR have been at it all year.

Ahem, it was due to, wait for it, Renault not meeting their targets. It is true, as shocking as it may sound, but they plain and simple didn't meet their targets.



#111 garagetinkerer

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Posted 06 January 2015 - 18:32

yeah, the BMW engines were mighty
but they didn't work together.
Schumacher and ferrari integrated perfectly, they were incredible team players considering the egos involved.
they put in max effort, got Bridgestone to make them special tyres and used their facilities to the utmost.

if merc were supplying redbull and held at Arms length like renault have been I doubt the results would have been better
merc have got the chassis and engine team working perfectly together.
merc was not bulletproof, so there is easy improvement right there.
if renault and redbull continue to pick at each other instead of shutting up and getting down to business merc will be uncatchable

 

This sob story again? Seriously, every manufacturer at the front switched to Michelin, and Bridgestone were left with Ferrari at front, and a couple of teams bringing up the rear. So who were they going to make the tyres for?

 

Also, a claim that Renault were held at an arms length, this is absolute horse manure. Renault didn't disclose to RBR that they were not able to meet certain targets set out for them, and Horner was rather vocal about early last year. I certainly don't see how Renault agreeing to targets and then not meeting them, is RBR's fault. Worse still, RBR themselves found out slightly before the test, and it was much worse than they had imagined...