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How are motor sport stars rated in their own countries?


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#51 kayemod

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Posted 31 December 2014 - 14:57

And another thing, you haven't told us where Sir Stirling came on that list, surely number one, beating all the other so-called sportsmen. In 1962 he won multiple races in Denmark at Roskilde, the Copenhagen Grand Prix, I watched him do it. No stranger to Scandinavia, he won at Karlskoga in Sweden as well, two years running. These were proper races with a decent field, he beat the likes of Innes Ireland and Sir Jack Brabham on those occasions. As far as I know, Messrs Fangio, Senna and Prost never even set foot in Denmark, let alone won races there.



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#52 Spaceframe

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Posted 31 December 2014 - 15:14

And another thing, you haven't told us where Sir Stirling came on that list, surely number one, beating all the other so-called sportsmen. In 1962 he won multiple races in Denmark at Roskilde, the Copenhagen Grand Prix, I watched him do it. No stranger to Scandinavia, he won at Karlskoga in Sweden as well, two years running. These were proper races with a decent field, he beat the likes of Innes Ireland and Sir Jack Brabham on those occasions. As far as I know, Messrs Fangio, Senna and Prost never even set foot in Denmark, let alone won races there.

Quite right - and the number one sportsman, one Muhammed Ali, never fought here and we haven't seenmuch of the likes of Tiger Woods (number 3), Ingemar Stenmark (number 8) or Wayne Gretzky (number 13) either. On the other hand, number 16 (Mike Tyson) did fight Super-Brian Nielsen in Copenhagen some years ago.

 

Stirling Moss, you say? Given that Ekstra Bladet racing expert thinks the Mulsanne straight was chicaned because of John Nielsen's loop-the-loop,you shouldn't expect them to be able to remember anybody Brit older than the Fab Four - except of course Winston Churchill. So Moss was an also-ran as well  ;)



#53 Charlieman

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Posted 31 December 2014 - 17:19

There's a recent report about UK newspaper readership over at the Guardian (http://www.theguardi...wspaper-readers). Readers of one sample red top paper, the Mirror, prefer football and boxing over other sports; Sun readers prefer darts and horse racing. The broadsheets throw up an interesting mix: cricket, rugby union, cycling and sailing.

 

Perhaps the British aren't so obsessed about football after all. Perhaps football is just the default sporting topic? I've known a few ex-pro-footballers who watch the game avidly on TV but are more likely found watching Leicester Tigers (rugby) on a saturday afternoon). 



#54 kayemod

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Posted 31 December 2014 - 18:50

There's a recent report about UK newspaper readership over at the Guardian (http://www.theguardi...wspaper-readers). Readers of one sample red top paper, the Mirror, prefer football and boxing over other sports; Sun readers prefer darts and horse racing. The broadsheets throw up an interesting mix: cricket, rugby union, cycling and sailing.

 

Perhaps the British aren't so obsessed about football after all. Perhaps football is just the default sporting topic? I've known a few ex-pro-footballers who watch the game avidly on TV but are more likely found watching Leicester Tigers (rugby) on a saturday afternoon). 

 

A pinch of salt needed here I think, I've just checked that survey, and I don't fit my newspaper (The Times) profile at all, not remotely, in fact I don't fit any of them. I have zero interest in all sports bar motor racing, have very little interest in politics, and the Cairn terrier at my feet has just raised his head to tell me that I have no interest in cats.

 

Just goes to show that we can't believe everything we read in the papers.



#55 Vitesse2

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Posted 31 December 2014 - 19:21

A pinch of salt needed here I think, I've just checked that survey, and I don't fit my newspaper (The Times) profile at all, not remotely, in fact I don't fit any of them. I have zero interest in all sports bar motor racing, have very little interest in politics, and the Cairn terrier at my feet has just raised his head to tell me that I have no interest in cats.

 

Just goes to show that we can't believe everything we read in the papers.

No, it just goes to show that you can't believe everything YouGov tell you! That info is gleaned from whatever the panellists choose to fill in on their profiles or answer on unpaid 'quick polls'. The samples aren't in proportion to the circulation of the papers either: Guardian readers are vastly over-represented in comparison to Mail, Telegraph, Mirror, Sun and Times readers. But most notably to Star readers: the Star's latest ABC figure is 471K, the Guardian's is 177K - yet the Guardian sample size is eighteen times the one for the Star!

 

There are lies, damned lies, statististics and YouGov ...  ;)



#56 Charlieman

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Posted 31 December 2014 - 20:13

No, it just goes to show that you can't believe everything YouGov tell you! 

Disclosure: I have worked in the 'pooter department of a market research company. If you gave me a set of survey results and asked me to analyse them on paper, I could give you some results in March 2018; with a computer I can give them tomorrow or next year (same day; 01/01/2015), whichever suits you.

 

The Guardian/YouGov poll was a fun event. Perhaps the Guardian reader sporting preference (cricket and cycling) is indicative given the number of contributors; the Daily Express (the biggest selling paper 50 years ago) reader preferences are illuminating: Long jump.



#57 lars75

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Posted 15 January 2015 - 11:03

Well if I had to rate the Dutch drivers, to me the top 20 would look like this:

 

1. Jos Verstappen

2. Arie Luyendijk

3. Jan Lammers

4. Robin Frijns

5. Max Verstappen (for now)

6. Jeroen Bleekemolen

7. Nyck de Vries (for now)

8. Tom Coronel

9. Peter Kox

10. Robert Doornbos

11. Cor Euser

12. Renger vd Zande

13. Giedo vd Garde

14. Stijn Schothorst

15. Yelmer Buurman

16. Beitske Visser

17. Ho Pin Tung

18. Nick Pastorelli

19. Nyck Catsburg

20. Stef Dusseldorp



#58 john aston

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Posted 15 January 2015 - 11:43

I thought Hertz Van Rental was the best  Dutch racer- or am I thinking of Dean Van Lines?   :yawnface:



#59 Jimisgod

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Posted 15 January 2015 - 12:20

Apart from Argentina I can not come up with a Motorsports athlete who should be ranked number 1.

Any list compiled in any country will be largely (very) clouded by what is in the daily news, what is being covered and what is fashionable. The list from Sweden show how many of the athletes are fairly current, with my personal opinion that Zlatan should not have been on the list period.

Of the named athletes in the thread, Borg HAD to be the one on top of a Swedish list, Fangio HAD to be on top of an Argentinian list. Any an all lists will be flawed, in a country 1 athlete stands above and beyond any other, as in being a seminal person who define the sport, era and country in one.

I am hard pressed to come up with a Danish candidate as top of the list, but as an example of the fleeting greatness of some Ole Olsen was THE Danish sportsman for some years in the 1970ies, visiting the Spousal Unit's family in Denmark over the holidays the only reason the Nieces will know of him, is that he were the curiosity in Dancing With the Stars some years ago. Obviously Tom Kristensen is HUGE in Denmark these years, but I do not think that will last. Denmark is a Soccer and Badminton nation, passing fads and success will change the idea of 'best ever' as we go along.

Bigger countries will have more strong athletes in many sports, which for them will muddle the waters a lot, does it have to be a 'big' sport?

USA - Babe Ruth? Mohammed Ali?

Belgium: Eddy Merckx?

Italy: Klaus Dibiasi?

:cool:


Prost and France? The only one I can think who would challenge is Zidane.

Good argument for Alonso and Spain, too. Although Nadal and a bunch of footballers may be more popular.

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#60 opplock

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Posted 15 January 2015 - 12:42

One of Bruce McLaren's daughters worked in a hospital in Christchurch (NZ). If I recall the story correctly a colleagues' reaction on learning the identity of her father several years ago was "I didn't know you were English". Even during that glorious time in the late 60s when there were 3 Kiwis in F1 and McLaren dominated the Can-Am motor racing had zero recognition in NZ other than in January. 

 

I'm no expert on Dutch motorsport but I would have thought that Carel de Beaufort deserves a place on a list of the top 20 Dutch drivers. 



#61 KWSN - DSM

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Posted 15 January 2015 - 14:33

Prost and France? The only one I can think who would challenge is Zidane.

Good argument for Alonso and Spain, too. Although Nadal and a bunch of footballers may be more popular.

 

I would prefer that the 'Best ever' is not from a team sport, even though there may be some standing out so they are the ones, selecting per my personal bias I would say the following, with some having multiple due being big countries. I think part of being best ever is the impact of the sportsman when active and later:

 

France
--
Jacques Anquetil, Bernard Hinault, Jean-Claude Killy

Austria
--
Franz Klammer

Denmark
--
Paul Elvstrøm

Spain
--
Seve Ballesteros

Switzerland
--
Roger Federer

Italy
--
Alberto Ascari, Giacomo Agostini, Alberto Tomba

:cool:



#62 wolf sun

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Posted 16 January 2015 - 10:48

One of Bruce McLaren's daughters worked in a hospital in Christchurch (NZ). If I recall the story correctly a colleagues' reaction on learning the identity of her father several years ago was "I didn't know you were English". Even during that glorious time in the late 60s when there were 3 Kiwis in F1 and McLaren dominated the Can-Am motor racing had zero recognition in NZ other than in January. 

 

I'm no expert on Dutch motorsport but I would have thought that Carel de Beaufort deserves a place on a list of the top 20 Dutch drivers. 

 

...and so do Gijs van Lennep and Toine Hezemans (rather than, say, Max Verstappen...), don't they?



#63 wolf sun

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Posted 16 January 2015 - 10:49

Also, there is no such thing as "soccer".



#64 Vitesse2

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Posted 16 January 2015 - 11:53

...and so do Gijs van Lennep and Toine Hezemans (rather than, say, Max Verstappen...), don't they?

.... Gatsonides, Herkuleyns, Bakker Schut ...



#65 lars75

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Posted 16 January 2015 - 12:14

...and so do Gijs van Lennep and Toine Hezemans (rather than, say, Max Verstappen...), don't they?

 

If you think so, please do :-) I think I can sqeeuze them in somewhere between 5 and 20, but so does Mike Hezemans.



#66 Jimisgod

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Posted 16 January 2015 - 12:17

I would prefer that the 'Best ever' is not from a team sport, even though there may be some standing out so they are the ones, selecting per my personal bias I would say the following, with some having multiple due being big countries. I think part of being best ever is the impact of the sportsman when active and later:

France
--
Jacques Anquetil, Bernard Hinault, Jean-Claude Killy

Austria
--
Franz Klammer

Denmark
--
Paul Elvstrøm

Spain
--
Seve Ballesteros

Switzerland
--
Roger Federer

Italy
--
Alberto Ascari, Giacomo Agostini, Alberto Tomba

:cool:

I'd have to say Prost and Alonso have achieved more than those mentioned, except Hinault. Seve would probably rate lower on the list of greatest golfers than Alonso and F1, although both are probably in the top 10.

Edited by Jimisgod, 16 January 2015 - 12:20.


#67 lars75

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Posted 16 January 2015 - 12:50

I'd have to say Prost and Alonso have achieved more than those mentioned, except Hinault. Seve would probably rate lower on the list of greatest golfers than Alonso and F1, although both are probably in the top 10.

 

What did Alonso achieve more than Roger Federer? He is just a 2 times world champion and when you look at the amount of victories in comparison to Schumacher, Vettel and Hamilton it's not a big achievement either. So please dot not rate Alonso higher than Federer.

 

And I don't like both off them!!!

 

I like think more of Nadal and Hamilton.


Edited by lars75, 16 January 2015 - 12:51.


#68 kayemod

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Posted 16 January 2015 - 13:05

What did Alonso achieve more than Roger Federer?

 

He certainly pissed off more people, just ask Ron.



#69 Vitesse2

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Posted 16 January 2015 - 13:22

Now, let's play nicely, eh ...  ;)

 

I'd have to say Prost and Alonso have achieved more than those mentioned, except Hinault. Seve would probably rate lower on the list of greatest golfers than Alonso and F1, although both are probably in the top 10.

Even disregarding the fact that KWSN-DSM is Danish and so probably just a teeny bit biased, I think you're seriously under-estimating Paul Elvstrøm, who is still something of a god in small-boat sailing circles.



#70 KWSN - DSM

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Posted 16 January 2015 - 13:51

Ehhh they have to be 'rated' against their compatriots. not across borders.

 

My list is my take on best ever for each of the countries, as I tried to convey it is not just about losing and winning, it is about the impact nationally and internationally, someone who makes a difference outside his or her chosen sport.

 

I would argue that apart from Tiger Woods there have been no golfer having an impact outside golf circles than Ballesteros. Achievements are what the public makes them to be, France is a ski and bicycle country, I continue to think that we have to be careful choosing best ever, and then we have all seen the ones we suggest. In France and for Frenchmen Anquetil was huge, great very very special and to me at least more of a best ever than Prost.

 

There are others which spring to my mind as being good suggestions.

 

Chezoslovakia

--

Emil Zátopek

 

Finland

--

Paavo Nurmi

 

:cool:



#71 ensign14

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Posted 16 January 2015 - 14:00

 

Apart from Argentina I can not come up with a Motorsports athlete who should be ranked number 1.

Elephant in the room is surely Schumacher for Germany? Although he faces stiff competition from e.g. Marita Koch. Four gold medals and a 30 year old world record. Outstanding.

#72 KWSN - DSM

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Posted 16 January 2015 - 14:25

 
Elephant in the room is surely Schumacher for Germany? Although he faces stiff competition from e.g. Marita Koch. Four gold medals and a 30 year old world record. Outstanding.

 

Think we can agree Marita was on a different flavour of Lemonade than you and I, I agree Schumacher would be a Race Driver who have a very strong argument for best ever, Katerina Witt? Steffi Graf? Surely there are other countries where a female athlete should be added to the conversation? And more which just pinged my feeble mind

 

India

--

Sachin Tendulkar

 

Brazil

--

Pele

 

Ukraine

--

Sergey Bubka

 

Ethiopia

--

Abebe Bikila

 

Indonesia

--

Rudy Hartono

 

The problem with lists and wanting to put someone on top never really works, I would like to come up with more women, but each time I find one then I have another male athlete being 'better', I have dragged this thread WAY of course sorry about that.

 

:cool:



#73 ensign14

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Posted 16 January 2015 - 14:49

Steffi Graf will always be tainted in my mind bceause of the Monica Seles assassination attempt. Not that Graf had anything to do with it, but Seles would have had Graf's stats.

#74 Collombin

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Posted 16 January 2015 - 22:26

Surely there are other countries where a female athlete should be added to the conversation?


Liechtenstein has Hanni Wenzel.

And how could you pick Klammer over Annemarie Proell for Austria? She was far superior.

#75 KWSN - DSM

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Posted 16 January 2015 - 23:23

Liechtenstein has Hanni Wenzel.

And how could you pick Klammer over Annemarie Proell for Austria? She was far superior.

 

Klammer WAS Alpine Sking at his peak, he absolutely dominated in a way transgressed into 'normal' life, seems I have to repeat that number of wins is not what define the best ever. For all the accolades we can put on Proell she simply was not then, and is not now the best ever Austrian athlete.

 

:cool:



#76 Wirra

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Posted 16 January 2015 - 23:28

We seem to getting way of topic, but;

 

... Surely there are other countries where a female athlete should be added to the conversation?...

 

In terms of performance, Heather McKay and Margaret Court would, IMO, be Australia's top overall sportspersons.



#77 Collombin

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Posted 16 January 2015 - 23:32

Klammer WAS Alpine Sking at his peak, he absolutely dominated in a way transgressed into 'normal' life, seems I have to repeat that number of wins is not what define the best ever. For all the accolades we can put on Proell she simply was not then, and is not now the best ever Austrian athlete.


I can well believe the impact he had in Austria (although he wasn't as good as my avatar IMO!), but I was providing a female athlete that could be added to the conversation.

#78 Collombin

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Posted 16 January 2015 - 23:33

In terms of performance, Heather McKay and Margaret Court would, IMO, be Australia's top overall sportspersons.


Bradman for me, but not, I gather, all that popular.

#79 KWSN - DSM

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Posted 17 January 2015 - 01:53

Bradman for me, but not, I gather, all that popular.

 

What about Laver?

 

:cool:



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#80 Michael Ferner

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Posted 17 January 2015 - 09:49

Elephant in the room is surely Schumacher for Germany? Although he faces stiff competition from e.g. Marita Koch. Four gold medals and a 30 year old world record. Outstanding.

 

I am German, yet I had to google Marita Koch! No dice.

 

Steffi Graf and Kathi Witt are good nominations, and I would add Max Schmeling who was HUGE in popularity even in the seventies and eighties, still. There are, of course, several guys who used to chase a small leather ball around a small field, which is all most Germans are interested in when it comes to sports. Outside of that, you have a lot of "niche heroes", dim stars in a dark sky: Bernhard Langer, Paul Schockemöhle, Christian Neureuther (and his spouse, I forget her name), Armin Hary, Didi Thurau, Michael Gross, Boris Becker are a few of those who transcended their success into some form of National Sports Hero, and Wolfgang von Trips and Walter Röhrl came pretty close to that group.



#81 wolf sun

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Posted 18 January 2015 - 10:44

 

Christian Neureuther (and his spouse, I forget her name)

 

Rosi Mittermaier :wave:



#82 Collombin

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Posted 18 January 2015 - 11:22

And their son won again yesterday.

This has all gone very OT, sorry Tim!

#83 Jimisgod

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Posted 20 January 2015 - 12:58

What did Alonso achieve more than Roger Federer? He is just a 2 times world champion and when you look at the amount of victories in comparison to Schumacher, Vettel and Hamilton it's not a big achievement either. So please dot not rate Alonso higher than Federer.

And I don't like both off them!!!

I like think more of Nadal and Hamilton.


When did Alonso become Swiss?

Fangio, Prost, Senna, Schumacher and Alonso are all legitimate competition for best athletes in their country. Bradman probably has Brabham beaten but they're certainly top three with Rod Laver.

Senna is in the same league as Pele, Garrincha or Ronaldo, Fangio is in the same league as Messi and Maradona etc.

#84 KWSN - DSM

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Posted 20 January 2015 - 13:43

Fangio....

 

Won 50% of the races, was on Pole 50% the races, led 70% of the races, scored points in 80% of the races, finished on podium 70% of the races, was on front row a staggering 90% of the races, and he did this racing for 4 different teams over 8 years.

 

Fangio was the one athlete who unequiably was THE sportsman of a country. A giant among men, standing on the shoulders of other giants.

 

:cool:



#85 D-Type

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Posted 20 January 2015 - 21:12

I'm surprised that nobody has mentioned Tazio Nuvolari yet.  Arguably the greatest racing driver ever. Away from motor racing: Babe Ruth, Joe DeMaggio, Jesse Owens, Jack Dempsey, Sir Stanley Matthews, Pele, etc also get overlooked.

 

Confirmation that any poll will inevitably be biased towards the more recent sportsmen.



#86 kayemod

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Posted 20 January 2015 - 23:22

I'm surprised that nobody has mentioned Tazio Nuvolari yet.  Arguably the greatest racing driver ever. Away from motor racing: Babe Ruth, Joe DeMaggio, Jesse Owens, Jack Dempsey, Sir Stanley Matthews, Pele, etc also get overlooked.

 

Confirmation that any poll will inevitably be biased towards the more recent sportsmen.

 

You're right of course, especially about the great Tazio, probably my own all-time personal hero, but he wasn't at his greatest after WW2, and I suspect that along with most others, I'd imagined that there was a kind of unspoken "1950s onward" theme to this discussion. If we are going back even further than that, where do we draw the line? Some of those Greeks in the first ever Olympics were pretty handy performers I would imagine.



#87 ensign14

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Posted 20 January 2015 - 23:31

Well, you're not going to get much better than Milon of Croton, who was sort of Italian, unbeaten in the wrestling over six Olympicses...



#88 kayemod

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Posted 20 January 2015 - 23:35

Well, you're not going to get much better than Milon of Croton, who was sort of Italian, unbeaten in the wrestling over six Olympicses...

 

I like those in soup.



#89 RogerFrench

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Posted 21 January 2015 - 07:02

I see that Erik Carlsson doesn't get into the Swedish list.
What rubbish!

#90 eldougo

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Posted 22 January 2015 - 22:58

This year Dakar and Australian rider Toby Price came home 3rd in the bike section and not a mention on the news Radio / TV.

typical  media for this country ....THEY ONLY LIKE WINNERS it seems.

Very sad indeed. :down:



#91 john ruston

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Posted 23 January 2015 - 11:42

The Koch idea is nonsense as part of East German doping scandle.

Presumably the German choice is between Beckenbauer and Schumacher.

The British probably should be Daley Thompson ,Seb Coe or George Best .

U S Jessie Owens and Australian Rod Laver or Don Bradman.

Even Fangio is a difficult choice against Maradonna

#92 Collombin

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Posted 23 January 2015 - 21:54

Daley Thompson


Overrated in my opinion. He wasn't, as many say, brilliant at 10 events. He was brilliant at one - the decathlon. (I will concede his long jumping was very good though).

In 1996, there was a TV programme naming the top British sportspeople of all time. The top 20 were determined by a panel of sports journalists, and then the vote went public to determine the final rankings. The final person to miss out on the top 20 was Daley Thompson. One of the panellists kicked up such a fuss about Thompson's exclusion that they redid the final vote, and Gareth Edwards missed out instead. When the voting went public, Thompson ended up 1st overall! (The expert British public voted Steve Ovett as being better than Seb Coe - not remotely influenced by Coe's job at the time of course). A total farce.

#93 KWSN - DSM

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Posted 24 January 2015 - 16:14

Overrated in my opinion. He wasn't, as many say, brilliant at 10 events. He was brilliant at one - the decathlon. (I will concede his long jumping was very good though).

In 1996, there was a TV programme naming the top British sportspeople of all time. The top 20 were determined by a panel of sports journalists, and then the vote went public to determine the final rankings. The final person to miss out on the top 20 was Daley Thompson. One of the panellists kicked up such a fuss about Thompson's exclusion that they redid the final vote, and Gareth Edwards missed out instead. When the voting went public, Thompson ended up 1st overall! (The expert British public voted Steve Ovett as being better than Seb Coe - not remotely influenced by Coe's job at the time of course). A total farce.

 

Guess this is why we can not agree on Klammer and Proel as well  ;)  Not sure I have seen Redgrave mentioned here, should he not be part of any English discussion, and where did he end on the top 20 list?

 

:cool:



#94 Collombin

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Posted 24 January 2015 - 16:18

Redgrave was pretty high, maybe even 2nd. The vote was soon after the Atlanta Olympics (his 4th of 5 golds). Thompson was just a bit too full of himself for my liking as well, although I wouldn't consciously rate him lower for that.

EDIT - In hunting for the top 20 list, I came across this titbit that sums it up really:-

"Kelly's prior TV experience, for instance, consisted solely of presenting a pre-recorded show called The Greatest, a quest to find Britain's top sportsman. 'Its "creative consultant" was Daley Thompson,' Kelly remembers. 'The greatest British sportsman of all time, the programme decided, was Daley Thompson.'"

Edited by E.B., 24 January 2015 - 16:28.


#95 LotusElise

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Posted 25 January 2015 - 14:27

Sometimes, sportspeople have bigger followings outside their home countries. Almost all US tennis players, male and female, are more popular with the UK public than their home crowd. Tennis does have a following in the States, but it isn't one of the major TV sports.

 

It's the same with Dan Wheldon being a household name in the US, but only really known to enthusiasts here, due to his success being in a series not covered on UK TV. Unfortunately, it took violent death to bring him to the attention of the general public.