48 replies to this topic

[huisne]

I started following WEC closely early this year and it caught my attention how much praise the WEC drivers get, especially LMP1 drivers. Some of them even seem to be rated as high as good F1 drivers.

I think it is difficult to compare WEC drivers to F1 drivers because it’s a different discipline, but there are some interesting things if you consider those drivers who have raced both in F1 and WEC.

If you look at Mark Webber, he was struggling quite a lot this year and was one of the weakest Porsche drivers. OK, it was his first year in this type of car, he’s way past his peak and he had a bad season in F1 in 2013 as well, but I still expected more from him. I wondered, if, for example, Neel Jani is so much better in the Porsche, maybe Jani would make a good F1 driver too? Maybe in WEC (and other categories like IndyCar or DTM) there are many „lost talents” who never got the chance but would be as good in an F1 car as anyone?

On the other hand, we have Davidson or Buemi, who are considered among the best WEC drivers. Or even Nakajima or Wurz, who are stars of the WEC. Were they good in F1? Well they were not bad, but they didn’t really set the world on fire. Davidson and Buemi were always at the wrong place at the wrong time, but if they really were that good and talented, I think they could have stayed in F1.  About Nakajima, he was generally considered a bad F1 driver and now he’s one of the best in WEC.

So generally I think the level of WEC drivers is considerably lower than that of F1 drivers, as previous results show (or simply the fact that a 47-year-old like Tom Kristensen could still be competitive), but they still seem to be held in high esteem.

What is your opinion on this? Do you think there are WEC drivers who could /could have become  good, great F1 drivers, maybe even WDCs, if given the right opportunity?
 

[Imateria]

The idea that F1 drivers are the best ~20 in the world bar none is a myth. Yes, the very cream of the crop like Alonso, Hamilton and Vettel (it'll take more than one slightly underwhelming season for me to drop him from this trio) are almost certainly the best in the world, at least as far as anyone can tell anyway, but beyond that the matter gets very  murky. As far as WEC is concerned, most of them that never got a chance in F1 would be excellent drivers that could easily hold their own against the likes of Perez, Maldonado, Grosjean, Vergne etc.... As for those that already had their F1 chance, Wurz has always been better at sportscars than he was F1, Davidson was excellent but was too closely aligned with Honda and never chased chances with other teams enough, Buemi has really surprised since joining Toyota as he's demonstrated qualities this year that have not been previously seen in his career all together. Di Grassi never really had a chance and Nakajima got to F1 too early and struggled, an extra year or so would probably have done him a lot of good.

 

As for lost talents in other series, thats a given. I've said it before, on the whole this years Indycar field was stronger than the F1 field. OK, Will Power and Simon Pagenaud might not be a match for Alonso and Hamilton, but there's also no one there as bad as Gutierez, Chilton and Ericsson. 

[Risil]

Lotterer is not the only great driver in the World Endurance Championship, and we have pretty good evidence that he'd have been successful if his Jaguar test drive in 2002 had led him to a race seat and not Japan. Instead they went with Mark Webber and Antonio Pizzonia, a hit and a miss respectively. None of the three was short on talent, although Pizzonia's inconsistency in the junior series perhaps should've been a warning light.

 

I know that a couple of members on here will challenge me for the big cultural generalization I'm about to make, but Japanese sportsmen frequently don't show their best sides in world competition. Perhaps it's a culture clash, perhaps the West has an individualist mindset that gives its racing drivers a more unshakeable belief in their right to everyone's time, attention and resources, perhaps living thousands of miles from home isn't great preparation for going up against the best of the best who can also fly back to HQ in an afternoon.

 

There's also the small matter of Kazuki Nakajima being paired in F1 with a driver who recently outqualified Lewis Hamilton. When you've got a tricky car in a very very tight midfield, a qualifying advantage will always be decisive. It happens. Nakajima's fast though. Look at the people he's beaten outside of Formula One.

 

I'm no expert on the technical side but car-sharing also demands that a driver can perform well in a car that's set up as a compromise. 3 drivers all need to be able to get competitive laptimes. We tend to hear stories about some very quick F1 drivers thriving in cars most other drivers hated (Michael Schumacher springs to mind). Depending on your point of view, good WEC drivers either have an admirable ability to drive anything, or they're not able to get the most out of their machinery to placate the driving peasants they share a team with.

 

And then there are special skills in sports car racing, such as being able to maintain speed through traffic without making mistakes. Anthony Davidson is acclaimed as one of the most brilliant talents in motor racing, but you wouldn't have heard many people saying that after he'd made his Peugeot debut in 2010.

 

My experience/opinion tells me that with a couple of exceptions though, the best ones in sports car racing have a strong background in single seaters. Even in GT racing, the master is Gimmi Bruni, who at 33 is at the peak of his abilities and raced for a whole year in a very slow Minardi. And Nick Heidfeld's as good as anyone in sports cars, underdeveloped privateer car or no underdeveloped privateer car. He'll prove that as soon as he gets into a factory team.

Edited by Risil, 30 December 2014 - 13:28.

[Risil]

As for lost talents in other series, thats a given. I've said it before, on the whole this years Indycar field was stronger than the F1 field. OK, Will Power and Simon Pagenaud might not be a match for Alonso and Hamilton, but there's also no one there as bad as Gutierez, Chilton and Ericsson. 

 

It would be improper to name names, but Chilton, Gutierrez and Ericsson are as good as quite a few drivers in Indycar.

[Jimisgod]

I get the feeling if you were to choose a top 25 circuit drivers in the world list, it would probably cut to be ~15 F1 drivers, ~5 in feeder categories and then another ~5 in WEC and Indycars.

As in, the majority of the best drivers are in F1 but they don't have a monopoly. Then again I think the best 10 F1 drivers this year were probably all above the best WEC driver. Behind them, you could probably swap around some Indy drivers, some WEC drivers and you'd get the same results.

I feel Power or Jani may match a Vergne or even beat what Kimi did in 2014. Buemi definitely could.

F1 has always been about a group of "tier one" drivers (5 or so at a time) who endure and a group of rookies who may be the next "tier one", while the rest are fairly interchangeable with drivers from sports cars etc.

[ollebompa]

I think they are as good,or as bad,however you want to call it, just different. Lets put it like this, of all the drivers in the world no one driver will be the fastest in whatever category. Likewise someone who's at the top of their catogory will never be outright poor in another. I believe driver talent are somewhat universal but depend alot on experience and general preference. I also think that to what dergee talent is realized depends alot on how a driver are able to build confidence from a young age and especially during early years at the highest level(F1, WEC, WRC, IndyCar), getting decent machinery/teammates that are not outright beasts.

Edited by ollebompa, 30 December 2014 - 13:52.

[huisne]

Lotterer is not the only great driver in the World Endurance Championship, and we have pretty good evidence that he'd have been successful if his Jaguar test drive in 2002 had led him to a race seat and not Japan. Instead they went with Mark Webber and Antonio Pizzonia, a hit and a miss respectively. None of the three was short on talent, although Pizzonia's inconsistency in the junior series perhaps should've been a warning light.

 

 

I think the problem with this is, being a 20-year-old with great potential doesn’t mean that you still have that that potential now, more than 10 years later. I mean, OK, Lotterer was a bright F1 prospect in 2002 and could have got the chance. And then he maybe could have been as good as Webber or Button or who knows.
But instead he went to Japan, to a much weaker series. And I think in a weaker series you don’t develop as much, because you have a weaker team, weaker facilities, weaker opponents. I think every F1 driver develops throughout their career, by learning from the best motorsport engineers, by racing against the best drivers, by driving the fastest cars. In a weaker series you can’t do that, so you can’t develop as much.
What I’m trying to say is, I think the ”Lotterer of today” (and many other drivers like him) is a worse driver than the Lotterer who ”could have been” if he went to F1 in 2003. And I think this happens to most drivers who didn’t get to chance to go to F1 – and that’s why I think that almost all WEC drivers are below the average level of F1. 

Edited by huisne, 30 December 2014 - 13:53.

[Risil]

That's an interesting theory but I reckon Lotterer punctured it by being immediately on the pace at Spa this year.

 

It's also worth pointing out, as others have done, that LMP cars go round corners quicker than F1 cars, and the engineering talent at the top end of the WEC is at least equal to F1. Not least because half of them used to work for BMW and Toyota.

Edited by Risil, 30 December 2014 - 13:54.

[Risil]

As for Indycar, of the current crop my feeling is that only Dixon would've "made it" and won races in F1. And Montoya of course. The rest are good but I don't believe they have the cocktail of technique, determination, aggression, single-mindedness and sheer racing-driver-ness that your Alonsos, Hamiltons, Rosbergs and Ricciardos possess. Mind you, the fact that Indycar can accommodate more kinds of driver and personality is a good thing in many ways.

 

Similar with the WEC. From what I hear from the embedded journos there's a really good feeling in the sports car paddock these days. I don't think Indycar is quite there in terms of harmony or mateyness, but it's certainly got a lot of colour.

Edited by Risil, 30 December 2014 - 14:03.

[noikeee]

It's all pretty much been said. The WEC guys in overall talent certainly aren't as good as the top F1 guys but could probably match the F1 midfielders, at least the lower end of midfield. However, driving WEC cars and driving F1 cars are just 2 different things, and some fit a category better than the other.

[Ross Stonefeld]

I think it's hard to judge some of the WEC guys because they are 'post peak'. I'm not sure Webber is any slower than he used to be, but does he bring the same intensity?

[Risil]

His days of driving with metal rods in his leg may be over. But it's a lot to ask of any ex-F1 driver -- even one that's been close to world championships -- to be up to speed in sports cars immediately. Sure Sebastian Buemi is rated as one of the best now, but 2014 was his third Le Mans.

Edited by Risil, 30 December 2014 - 14:21.

[noikeee]

Buemi and Davidson are still well within their peaks and were maybe about Sutil level or slightly quicker in F1. Nakajima was rated thereabouts too, maybe a little behind those guys. I think there is some basis for comparison even if this is all hardly scientific proof.

[sopa]

We already know what kind of drivers Davidson, Buemi, Wurz, Nakajima, etc were in F1. So the question whether top-line WEC drivers would do well in F1, lies therein already. Those guys weren't embarrassing (though Nakajima scored nil in 2009), but they weren't impressive enough to have a long-term sustainable career in F1. Both Heidfeld and Webber, also currently in WEC, had a better F1 career and were genuinely strong competitors.

 

Then also there are obviously other good WEC drivers, who never got F1 chance, and with them you can only guess. Maybe somebody was really at least Webber-Heidfeld F1 talent, but genuinely unlucky, and didn't get F1 drive. Most of them probably would not exceed the Davidsons and Buemis of this world though. Many of them, like Lapierre, Jani, Hartley, etc were in feeder series (GP2, FR3.5, whatever), but weren't impressive enough to get signed up by an F1 team for a race drive. So there you go.

 

As for why the most accomplished F1 drivers in WEC, Webber and Heidfeld, are currently behind established WEC stars - different discipline, experience, commitment, skillset, everything. I think we already had a similar topic recently. Also in DTM you see former F1 drivers getting shown up by established DTM stars. Even though this doesn't mean DTM drivers would cut it in F1. Like CART star Zanardi didn't cut it in F1. Etc, etc. Different series, different pecking order.

[Jimisgod]

I think the Nakajima and Buemi ascendency is a result of the typical "career path" of all drivers. Essentially there is a youth, a period of experience and an old age.

Youth is the period through the feeder categories and the first years of F1 when inconsistency is slightly forgiveable but a lack of speed isn't. Those who don't swim immediately are moved to WEC or elsewhere. Then after 5 or so years in top categories a driver hits the sweet spot due to their experience, which lasts until their decline with age. Buemi has been in F1 and WEC long enough that he's reached that peak, as has Nakajima.

You could cut Schumacher's career that way;

Youth - 1991 to 1994
Sweet spot - 1995 to 2003
Old age - 2004 to 2012

Hamilton seems to have made a turn for the better at the end of 2011.

Button 2009 onwards has been a greater driver than before.

[sopa]

About different pecking orders. Christijan Albers was a brilliant DTM driver and would show up most F1 drivers in a DTM car, but he himself didn't show anything in F1.

 

I think one of the biggest "what ifs" among sportscar racers is Tom Kristensen. What could he have done in F1? Other former sportscar/endurance racing stars like Pirro, McNish, etc, had a stint in F1, and we could see, what they did there. The answer is the same as with Wurz and other current WEC stars. "Not enough" for a sustainable career.

 

Among WEC drivers Lotterer and Sarrazin are interesting cases. Both got one F1 chance, and they impressed in these. But it is easy to overrate a driver just based on a single Grand Prix weekend. There is high chance in a longer career they would have seen them not amounting to much.

 

About Buemi I have been pondering that perhaps he was slightly underrated in F1. Because Red Bull has been ruthlessly pushing drivers aside and as we see, Ricciardo has proven to be really good. Vergne isn't bad. Buemi always seemed like a solid points contender. But I still don't think he amounted to much more than a decent midfielder in F1. In any case, ever since he left F1, Buemi has been going extremely well in anything he has raced, including WEC and currently Formula E.

[Risil]

Buemi and Davidson are still well within their peaks and were maybe about Sutil level or slightly quicker in F1. Nakajima was rated thereabouts too, maybe a little behind those guys. I think there is some basis for comparison even if this is all hardly scientific proof.

I recall Sam Collins saying on an old Radio Le Mans podcast that back in the old loads-of-testing days of F1, having a top test driver (or two) was a huge factor that separated the great teams from the merely well-funded. We know that Ant was one of the best and we know that Alex Wurz logged unholy testing time with various troublesome Mclarens in the mid-2000s. The Toyota LMP has been described as a conservative car, but from what I've read and heard the brake-by-wire system is quite ambitious (read: as or more complex than what the top F1 teams have) in how it works alongside the energy recovery stuff. So there's plenty for a development driver to do.

I'd be very interested to know whether being a great tester is still one of the primary skills for a top-line endurance racer. It probably isn't in modern F1, if indeed it ever was.

[Risil]

About Buemi I have been pondering that perhaps he was slightly underrated in F1. Because Red Bull has been ruthlessly pushing drivers aside and as we see, Ricciardo has proven to be really good. Vergne isn't bad. Buemi always seemed like a solid points contender. But I still don't think he amounted to much more than a decent midfielder in F1. In any case, ever since he left F1, Buemi has been going extremely well in anything he has raced, including WEC and currently Formula E.

 

Toro Rosso haven't made a quick car since 2008, when Adrian Newey probably designed it for them. If a driver whose best finish in three years in F1 is seventh and spent more time than not outside of the top 10 was actually quicker than the guy beating Alonso and Hamilton to four titles in a row, who's to say what Buemi, Alguersuari and Vergne would've amounted to? Better look at what they do outside of F1 and give the benefit of the doubt. In Buemi's case, that's a considerable benefit. Alguersuari doesn't look like he cares as much.

Edited by Risil, 30 December 2014 - 14:46.

[sopa]

I think the Nakajima and Buemi ascendency is a result of the typical "career path" of all drivers. Essentially there is a youth, a period of experience and an old age.

Youth is the period through the feeder categories and the first years of F1 when inconsistency is slightly forgiveable but a lack of speed isn't. Those who don't swim immediately are moved to WEC or elsewhere. Then after 5 or so years in top categories a driver hits the sweet spot due to their experience, which lasts until their decline with age. Buemi has been in F1 and WEC long enough that he's reached that peak, as has Nakajima.

You could cut Schumacher's career that way;

Youth - 1991 to 1994
Sweet spot - 1995 to 2003
Old age - 2004 to 2012

Hamilton seems to have made a turn for the better at the end of 2011.

Button 2009 onwards has been a greater driver than before.

 

That's a pretty interesting way of putting it.

 

Though I think even a "peak" Buemi or Nakajima would not be an F1 frontrunner. Just perhaps a slightly more competitive midfield runner than they were before. We are talking about very small margins and fluctuations. Just like Michael Schumacher was an excellent F1 driver in both 1991 and 2006, even though it wasn't his peak period.

[Jimisgod]

I recall Sam Collins saying on an old Radio Le Mans podcast that back in the old loads-of-testing days of F1, having a top test driver (or two) was a huge factor that separated the great teams from the merely well-funded. We know that Ant was one of the best and we know that Alex Wurz logged unholy testing time with various troublesome Mclarens in the mid-2000s. The Toyota LMP has been described as a conservative car, but from what I've read and heard the brake-by-wire system is quite ambitious (read: as or more complex than what the top F1 teams have) in how it works alongside the energy recovery stuff. So there's plenty for a development driver to do.

I'd be very interested to know whether being a great tester is still one of the primary skills for a top-line endurance racer. It probably isn't in modern F1, if indeed it ever was.

That's a good point, WEC has been almost the sole breeding ground for motoring innovation since F1 testing was banned and almost everything made spec.

I wonder if a "I only drive the car" guy like Kimi could match their success even at full potential.

[sopa]

I recall Sam Collins saying on an old Radio Le Mans podcast that back in the old loads-of-testing days of F1, having a top test driver (or two) was a huge factor that separated the great teams from the merely well-funded. We know that Ant was one of the best and we know that Alex Wurz logged unholy testing time with various troublesome Mclarens in the mid-2000s. The Toyota LMP has been described as a conservative car, but from what I've read and heard the brake-by-wire system is quite ambitious (read: as or more complex than what the top F1 teams have) in how it works alongside the energy recovery stuff. So there's plenty for a development driver to do.

I'd be very interested to know whether being a great tester is still one of the primary skills for a top-line endurance racer. It probably isn't in modern F1, if indeed it ever was.

 

Interesting. But based on this theory how would Pedro de la Rosa and Luca Badoer have done in WEC? Because in F1 they were valued very highly as test drivers.

[Jimisgod]

That's a pretty interesting way of putting it.

Though I think even a "peak" Buemi or Nakajima would not be an F1 frontrunner. Just perhaps a slightly more competitive midfield runner than they were before. We are talking about very small margins and fluctuations. Just like Michael Schumacher was an excellent F1 driver in both 1991 and 2006, even though it wasn't his peak period.

Schumacher was a once in a generation talent, but he was still very close to being matched by a not so highly rated (but experienced) teammate during his "youth" in 1992.

All the teams gamble on having the next star who will be marginally quicker at their peak. 1995 Schumacher was better than 1992. But I think Buemi in 2015 will be better than Kvyat in 2015, we have to wait and see if that's still true in 2018.

[Nathan]

To me WEC is where the potential stars of yesterday went because they didn't have the opportunity (money) to break into F1.  

[Ross Stonefeld]

That's a good point, WEC has been almost the sole breeding ground for motoring innovation since F1 testing was banned and almost everything made spec.

I wonder if a "I only drive the car" guy like Kimi could match their success even at full potential.

 

The big change in F1 was the lack of on-track testing. It's not that spec...

[Seanspeed]

I've said it before, on the whole this years Indycar field was stronger than the F1 field. OK, Will Power and Simon Pagenaud might not be a match for Alonso and Hamilton, but there's also no one there as bad as Gutierez, Chilton and Ericsson.

I nearly spit my drink out cuz of this(not even kidding! lol).

You severely underestimate those guys, obviously. They are strong drivers, they just look bad because the talent level in F1 *is* actually that high. I feel any one of them could do just fine in IndyCar in a decent team. Mike Conway has won races in IndyCar and I would put these guys you mentioned at a similar level.

Guys like Graham Rahal, Marco Andretti, Charlie Kimball, James Hinchcliffe would very likely struggle in F1. Even guys like Will Power, Simon Pagenuad, RHR, and 2014 JPM probably would find F1 a really tough cookie to find success in.

[jcbc3]

...
I think one of the biggest "what ifs" among sportscar racers is Tom Kristensen. ....

I concur.

It would seem highly likely that he would have made a very successful career out of it in F1. At least his CV in the lower classes stand up to scrutiny.

Winner German F3 championship
Winner Japanese F3 Championship
Race Winner Japanese F3000
Race Winner International F3000
Race Winner DTM
Race Winner BTCC

[aramos]

 

About Buemi I have been pondering that perhaps he was slightly underrated in F1. Because Red Bull has been ruthlessly pushing drivers aside and as we see, Ricciardo has proven to be really good. Vergne isn't bad. Buemi always seemed like a solid points contender. But I still don't think he amounted to much more than a decent midfielder in F1. In any case, ever since he left F1, Buemi has been going extremely well in anything he has raced, including WEC and currently Formula E.

 

I've always considered Buemi quite good. Vettel beat Bourdais 10-0 when both cars finished in 2008 when Vettel was the more experienced driver and Bourdais the rookie, but Buemi came straight into the sport and started to beat the now second year Bourdais. 

 

Ricciardo has demonstrated that Vettel isn't an outlier of the Red Bull program. That there is huge depth to nearly all of the drivers they promote, as of course nearly all of them are champions in multiple junior series. Buemi was always towards the weaker end of their production line, but his second in Formula 3 Euro matched Vettel's best effort. There is no reason to think that he is necessarily of a much lower standard.

[Spillage]

I don't believe that all drivers are consistently good in all series and over the course of their careers. It comes down to the old 'if X beat Y who beat Z then X is better than Z' argument; it's flawed enough in F1, never mind when its applied across other series as well. I mean, Sato beat Davidson at Super Aguri, so does that mean Sato is better than Buemi? And if so, does that mean Indycar drivers are better than WEC drivers? Of course not. Really, there isn't much more we can say except that WEC drivers are the world's best endurance drivers. To compare them to single-seater drivers is impossible.

[Risil]

It's a truth universally acknowledged that if you put Sato in enough races, every now and again he will be Alonso for a day.

[Myrvold]

Interesting. But based on this theory how would Pedro de la Rosa and Luca Badoer have done in WEC? Because in F1 they were valued very highly as test drivers.

 

Well, Badoer never did anything else. But de la Rosa won Formula Nippon and JGTC (now SuperGT) in 1997, which for me shows that he also knew how to drive GT-cars!

[noikeee]

It's a truth universally acknowledged that if you put Sato in enough races, every now and again he will be Alonso for a day.

And this was the day

 

[Risil]

Well, Badoer never did anything else. But de la Rosa won Formula Nippon and JGTC (now SuperGT) in 1997, which for me shows that he also knew how to drive GT-cars!

 

I have a feeling that De la Rosa never did prototypes because he always had a better offer in F1. He seems to have invented the simulator/tester role, was F1's Roberto Moreno in his ability to pick up a half-season of racing here and there, and is probably standing in for Fernando Alonso half the time anyway.

 

Edited by Risil, 30 December 2014 - 17:05.

[SpartanChas]

I've always considered Buemi quite good. Vettel beat Bourdais 10-0 when both cars finished in 2008 when Vettel was the more experienced driver and Bourdais the rookie, but Buemi came straight into the sport and started to beat the now second year Bourdais. 

 

Ricciardo has demonstrated that Vettel isn't an outlier of the Red Bull program. That there is huge depth to nearly all of the drivers they promote, as of course nearly all of them are champions in multiple junior series. Buemi was always towards the weaker end of their production line, but his second in Formula 3 Euro matched Vettel's best effort. There is no reason to think that he is necessarily of a much lower standard.

 

iirc wasn't Buemi almost always the quicker Toro Rosso driver in qualifying in 2011, but had a lot more mechanical troubles than Alguersuari?

 

Very interesting thread.

[Spillage]

It's a truth universally acknowledged that if you put Sato in enough races, every now and again he will be Alonso for a day.

  Don't get me wrong, I wasn't beating up on Sato. Just making the point that a season alongside Davidson is no way to judge how the standard of driving in Indycar measures up to that of the WEC.

 

I also think we have to be careful judging Lotterer's performance in his F1 cameo. One can't really judge a driver on the basis of one race weekend, let alone a weekend where he retires on the first lap and the only point of comparison with his teammate is a wet qualifying session. I have no idea if Ericsson but together a clean lap that session - maybe Lotterer didn't really have the edge in pace at all. It was an impressive debut, but it can't really be used to judge how Lotterer would do in F1 and it certainly can't be used to measure up F1 drivers relative to their WEC counterparts.

[AlexLangheck]

They are top drivers. Stop trying to compare them against F1 drivers. F1 is not the be all and end all in Motorsport. Believe it or not, but there are some young drivers who have no interest in making it to F1.

[Myrvold]

was F1's Roberto Moreno in his ability to pick up a half-season of racing here and there, and is probably standing in for Fernando Alonso half the time anyway.

 

Didn't Roberto Moreno do this in F1 as well as CART?

[ardbeg]

I think most ex F1 drivers, those that had a long F1 career, that goes to a "lesser" series does it because they know they do no longer have what it takes for F1. When that happens, I think it is natural to go into a semi-retirement mode and with that, they do not take their racing so serious anymore. They race because it is fun or in some cases to earn some money, but they know it is just an epilogue. With a mindset like that, you will be slower. Just look at DTM, many F1 drivers retires into that series.

 

If you are a driver that think you never really got the chance you deserved in F1, that you think you still have something to prove, then it will be different. Still, reason they got their F1 career cut short is usually because they did not belong to the top 20.

 

That said - driving a F1 car is different. You are not supposed to drive a WEC car as close to the limit as you do with a F1.

[barrykm]

F1 and WEC have each become more far more specialised than they were in the Sixties when we last had the regular opportunity to judge how WEC (read Sports Car/Prototype) drivers fared against their F1 counterparts. Consistent success in either field now requires different skill sets, apart from just being a fast driver.

 

It would be fascinating to see if a current top line F1 driver would be able to clearly and consistently outperform the current top line WEC drivers over the course of a WEC season, including Le Mans. Sadly though this is only a theoretical question.

[Ferrari_F1_fan_2001]

As a point of reference, Michael Schumacher was never 'brilliant' as a LeMans/LMP1 type of driver. Wendlinger and Frentzen were both rated higher than him at the time. Still, it didn't stop him becoming arguably the best F1 driver of all time.

 

I think a driver needs to him his 'sweet' spot; in terms of psychological comfort, gelling with the car and the team for the best to happen. Get one of them wrong and all that talent can be masked quite easily and a good driver can be consigned to the 'never was' or 'has been' pile.

Edited by Ferrari_F1_fan_2001, 31 December 2014 - 17:33.

[nikksan]

If you have 1000 drivers fighting for a seat in WEC,you will have x100 drivers fighting for F1 seat.

On that matter following the obvious logic the level of 'racing talent' in F1 should be higher the one in WEC.

It`s hard to compare two drivers driving in another series,as each series is very different and it can suit someone drivings style.

I believe Hamilton,Button,Alonso,Raikkonen and Vettel to be the best drivers in F1 on this planet atm.

[carlt]

H-H Frentzen was considered a better driver than Schumacher when they were in the Merc. sportscar team  pre F1

[BRG]

You are not supposed to drive a WEC car as close to the limit as you do with a F1.

Except at Le Mans where you drive flat out for 24 hours.  Or you get your P45 as Lapierre just discovered.

[DanardiF1]

Except at Le Mans where you drive flat out for 24 hours.  Or you get your P45 as Lapierre just discovered.

 

And at every 6 hour race as well... and the qualifying laps can be something to behold. People who think these LMP1 cars are 'lazy' or 'easy to drive' in comparison to F1 cars are sorely mistaken.

[Jeeves]

That said - driving a F1 car is different. You are not supposed to drive a WEC car as close to the limit as you do with a F1.

 

Gosh. For once I had a chance to post a good meme and the bugger won't show.

[jpf]

Different series emphasize a different blend of skills, inside and outside of the car.  In each series, the ultimate speed difference between drivers might be less than 1% — is it any surprise that under different rules, aiming for different targets, the best of one series might be just average in another?

 

So what you're really asking is which series tests for the collection of skills that defines the most "real" description of driving talent, and I'm not sure that's a question that has a sensible answer.

 

It's like judging runners of different distances: who's the better runner, the best marathoner or the best sprinter?  It depends on what you like best about running, I guess.

 

This is why drivers (or runners!) that show versatility, succeeding in different types of cars and racing over their careers are especially impressive and justly celebrated.

 

Anyway I think that the best WEC drivers seem to be very high quality, but the temptation is always there to consider F1 more about pure speed and so it can feel like a "realer" test of driving talent.

[MNader]

I would like to put a brief intro for myself before i answer as i am quite new here. I am an Engineer and over the past brief period i have been able to work as a Race Engineer in Europe both on single seaters and GT cars.

 

WEC drivers are very, very good drivers and F1 drivers are the same. 

 

The notion that F1 drivers are the best in the world is complete nonsense, and also is the notion that any driver in any single series is. F1 drivers are probably the best at driving F1 cars and WEC drivers are probably the best in driving WEC cars. the cars in each series are so advanced that there is quite a gap between each of the high end categories (NASCAR, Indycar, F1, WEC, WTCC, WRC)

 

Each category requires a certain broad driving style to start with and each car requires a more certain style to get the best out of.

 

a lot of GT drivers were aiming for F1 but at some point ran out of money to compete and show their worthiness, or maybe ended up in F1 in the wrong place at the wrong time. Also worth to say that LMP1 cars are now more technically advanced than F1 cars but are a bit slower as they are heavier and have some rules to follow which do not aim for maximum performance.

 

Take and F1 driver into an LMP1 or sports car and he would perform less than those with more experience and the opposite is true as well, this puts what Lotterer did this season in high regard (although it was only qualifying).

 

 

the competition to be a WEC driver is certainly much, much more competitive than F1 as those who consider careers in WEC are racing in: F1 feeder series + GT series (which are much more than F1 feeder series) so to get the job you have to beat plenty of competition and to be a factory driver is a huge issue.

 

 

 

I hope this answer helps

[ForzaGTR]

I would not be at all surprised if Alonso, Hamilton and Vettel won titles in WEC.

[aramos]

As a point of reference, Michael Schumacher was never 'brilliant' as a LeMans/LMP1 type of driver. Wendlinger and Frentzen were both rated higher than him at the time. Still, it didn't stop him becoming arguably the best F1 driver of all time.

 

I think a driver needs to him his 'sweet' spot; in terms of psychological comfort, gelling with the car and the team for the best to happen. Get one of them wrong and all that talent can be masked quite easily and a good driver can be consigned to the 'never was' or 'has been' pile.

 

Schumacher was a master of car control right on the limit, he was excellent at manipulating a lose rear end and not only avoiding losing lap times, but also using it to reduce understeer and doing this consistently. It makes a lot of sense to me that he wouldn't be as strong in heavier, more understeer prone sports cars. I dare say drivers like Hamilton and Ricciardo would also lose some of their edge in bigger heavier cars. Those seem to be the two drivers most comfortable with an oversteering car on the limit.

[SonJR]

What makes the comparison so tricky is that we're also talking about different disciplines where you have 'specialists' (especially in more one-make series like IndyCar, DTM and Porsche Cup) and technological advances in the series throughout the years (Vettel and Raikkonen loving 2013 cars, but hating 2014 cars). This is also a complicating factor because of the issue of time, which at least in Formula 1 is usually not given for people coming in, whereas someone like Webber - because of his F1 'standing' - will get multiple seasons to get used to a WEC car.

 

And of course certain drivers are just more adaptable, although that doesn't necessarily mean they're the quickest, just more all-round. I think a Heidfeld would be a great example of that, as opposed to plenty of others. Even if at a 100% they won't match, let's say a Vettel at 100%, they'll be better able to extract more out of themselves and the car.

 

(A couple of years back I'd have also made the argument that Endurance requires driving who excell at consistently driving at 90 instead of 100 percent, but nowadays it seems they're pushing for all 24 hours!)

Edited by SonJR, 02 January 2015 - 11:36.