28 replies to this topic

[Roger Clark]

AAGR has recently raised the interesting question of the most powerful British F1 engine. It might also be interesting to go to the other extreme and consider the least powerful Grand Prix engines. I suggest three categories:

1 winners;
2 serious entries (ie capable of a top six finish in a world championship or equivalent race) and
3 all comers.

As far as winners are concerned, and in the world championship era, I think the 1961 Climax must be favourite, although some of the 1952/53 Italian horses were not very healthy. How much power did Ascari really have? Before the world championship era, I think that the 2-litre cars of 1922/23, before superchargers, will take a lot of beating.

Edited by Roger Clark, 30 December 2014 - 17:42.

[Tim Murray]

I understand that Nazzaro's winning Fiat at Strasbourg in 1922 was rated at 92 bhp, with the 2nd and 3rd place Bugattis producing around 87 bhp. These would be my nominations for categories 1 and 2.

[Ray Bell]

Didn't the Scarab have problems with power?

Ford pushrod engines also ran in F1 in the 1.5-litre era, Jo Siffert for one.

[Ray Bell]

...and some air-cooled cars ran in F1 early in the fifties...

F3 cars with larger or enlarged engines.

[Rob G]

The JAP in Harry Schell's Cooper at Monaco in 1950 has to rank right up (or down) there. Pre-war, maybe the Mathis of 1921?

[Roger Clark]

The supercharged DBs that appeared at Pau in 1955 apparently only had 80bhp - and that was probably enough for the chassis. Pre-war, the 1923 Voisins also made do with 80bhp, while the 1926 Sima Violet (a flat four two stroke) could only muster 60.

[Charlieman]

Didn't the Scarab have problems with power?

As I recall, recent rebuilders determined that the valve lift and timing were wrong. The engine was fundamentally right but the complicated valve mechanism wasn't worked out before time and enthusiasm were exhausted.

 

F2 Porsches converted into F1 1.5 litre racers would have been low on power. The works cars had almost enough, hence the single win.

[Roger Clark]

As I recall, recent rebuilders determined that the valve lift and timing were wrong. The engine was fundamentally right but the complicated valve mechanism wasn't worked out before time and enthusiasm were exhausted.

F2 Porsches converted into F1 1.5 litre racers would have been low on power. The works cars had almost enough, hence the single win.

Which win was that?

I thought that the flat 4 Porsches were at least competitive with the Climaxes on power though they did have a lot of frontal area to push along.

Figures I have seen for the Scarab suggest around 230bhp which is not good but probably competive with an early 2.5-litre Climax, or a BRM on a bad day.

[Allan Lupton]

Which win was that?

I thought that the flat 4 Porsches were at least competitive with the Climaxes on power though they did have a lot of frontal area to push along.

I expect he's swapped from discussing the 4-cylinder to the 8-cylinder, in which case Rouen 1962 (plus non-championship Solitude a week or so later) (I was there at both!).

[AAGR]

We're getting rather Off-Topic here, but weren't the Gordinis of the 1950s considerably less powerful than would have been competitive with Ferrari, Maserati and Vanwall ?

 

AAGR

[Charlieman]

Which win was that?

I thought that the flat 4 Porsches were at least competitive with the Climaxes on power though they did have a lot of frontal area to push along.

Dan Gurney, 1962, Rouen (France), ~104 mph average. I'll have to leave it to a Porsche fan to explain how the works cars had much more power than their F2 predecessors.

[Roger Clark]

Dan Gurney, 1962, Rouen (France), ~104 mph average. I'll have to leave it to a Porsche fan to explain how the works cars had much more power than their F2 predecessors.

As Allan Lupton said, this was a flat-8 so hardly F2 based.

[kayemod]

Dan Gurney, 1962, Rouen (France), ~104 mph average. I'll have to leave it to a Porsche fan to explain how the works cars had much more power than their F2 predecessors.

 

Possibly because Dan was cheating, he had a flat 8, twice as many cylinders as the customer cars.

 

Doh!

[Roger Clark]

Wandering further off topic, I don't think Porsche built any customer cars in this period. They sold the works cars when they'd finished with them, but that's not the same thing.

[kayemod]

Wandering further off topic, I don't think Porsche built any customer cars in this period. They sold the works cars when they'd finished with them, but that's not the same thing.

 

Did they ever sell a flat 8?

[Roger Clark]

Did they ever sell a flat 8?

Not for racing.

[Charlieman]

Possibly because Dan was cheating, he had a flat 8, twice as many cylinders as the customer cars.

That is so naughty.

 

I was thinking about the flat fours mostly, and about how many goodies the factory team and a few mates had for their previously-F2 engines. 

[Ray Bell]

I wouldn't have thought that the 1961 Porsche F1 cars were too far down on power at all...

Didn't they give the Climax-powered cars a pretty good run?

[Doug Nye]

The 1 1/2-litre De Tomaso wasn't much cop - neither was the Leaf engine in the Berkshire Special... Gordini has already been mentioned - the ill-fated Arzani-Volpini was undeveloped and pretty unimpressive during its one run...  And so on. The Porsche 718 flat-4s certainly did give the Climax Mark I-engined opposition a good run on certain circuits (such as Solitude and the Sudschleife) in 1960 F2 and 1961 F1... ditto the Porsche 804 flat-8s at Solitude in '62 against stronger British rivals.

 

DCN

[Spaceframe]

I understand that Nazzaro's winning Fiat at Strasbourg in 1922 was rated at 92 bhp, with the 2nd and 3rd place Bugattis producing around 87 bhp. These would be my nominations for categories 1 and 2.

Good call!

 

But even less powerful engines powered winning cars - the Panhard that won the inaugural Gordon Bennett Cup back in 1900 had 24 bhp. An even weaker winning engibe was the 3-4 bhp Daimlers powering the winning Peugeots and Panhard-Levassors of the 1894 Paris-Rouen "race"...

[Tim Murray]

Absolutely correct, but I don't think these were Grand Prix races as specified in the thread title. Notwithstanding the race at Pau in 1901, and the later attempts of the ACF to rewrite history, in my view Grand Prix racing began with the first Grand Prix de l'ACF in June 1906.

[Spaceframe]

Absolutely correct, but I don't think these were Grand Prix races as specified in the thread title. Notwithstanding the race at Pau in 1901, and the later attempts of the ACF to rewrite history, in my view Grand Prix racing began with the first Grand Prix de l'ACF in June 1906.

Indeed, although for me the codeword was "equivalent".

 

The town-to-town races hardly qualifies as equivalent of world championship GPs, but a few early races, like the Pau GP you mention and the 1903 Gordon Bennett Cup at Athy in Ireland (the first major motor race to be held at a racing circuit - or rather two, the 1st, 2nd and 5th laps over a 65 km anti-clockwise circuit, the 3rd, 4th, 6th and 7th lap over an 83 km clockwise circuit, the two sharing the start/finishing leg from Athy through the start/finish at Ballyshannon). The winner at Athy was Camille Jenatzy (known as "The Red Devil") in a Mercedes 60HP (with 65 bhp quoted).

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by Doug Nye
.....The Porsche 718 flat-4s certainly did give the Climax Mark I-engined opposition a good run on certain circuits (such as Solitude and the Sudschleife).....

I was thinking more in terms of Rheims, Doug...

There Gurney was leading to the line in the rather bulbous Porsche before Baghetti slipstreamed past him with the Ferrari (admittedly a 65-degree engine, but still a V6). They were a full minute ahead of the best of the rest, Clark in the 21.

And they would have been Mk 2 Climax FPFs, wouldn't they?

[Tim Murray]

... the 1903 Gordon Bennett Cup at Athy in Ireland (the first major motor race to be held at a racing circuit ...

I'd go for the 1902 Circuit des Ardennes as the first major race to be held on a closed circuit. It certainly attracted a large entry from most of the leading firms actively involved in racing at that time, so I think deserves to be regarded as a major race.

[D-Type]

What was the car with a supercharged MG engine in 1950-51?  I think it made a minor F1 race although it was a DNA at Goodwood.

 

As well as the Ford 4-cylinder didn't a couple of cars use Alfa Romeo 4-cylinder engines in 1961?  eg the Assegai

[Rob G]

 

As well as the Ford 4-cylinder didn't a couple of cars use Alfa Romeo 4-cylinder engines in 1961?  eg the Assegai

Two De Tomasos were Alfa Romeo powered at Monza, while a third had an OSCA engine. 

[nicanary]

If we're talking about South African-based F1 cars, then the engine from the Netuar derived from a Peugeot 203. I really can't imagine many nags coming from that one.......

[ensign14]

What was the car with a supercharged MG engine in 1950-51?  I think it made a minor F1 race although it was a DNA at Goodwood.

 

 

The Gleed?  Basically a Cooper F3? It was, I think, entered at Goodwood in 1958, but never showed up.

[Roger Clark]

The Gleed wasn't listed in any 1958 Goodwood programme.

Edited by Roger Clark, 02 January 2015 - 10:17.