381 replies to this topic

[AustinF1]

I remember there being some debate over Alonso's broader adaptability to ill-handling cars and Kimi's more narrow driving strength. Pat Fry sheds some light...

 

http://www.motorspor...n-raikkonen-fry

 

 

Ferrari's champion of 2007, and having thrived at Lotus, Finn Raikkonen notably struggled alongside Alonso last year and Briton Fry thinks he knows why.

"There were two issues," he is quoted by Brazil's Totalrace.

"The first is that Fernando is more adaptable and the second is that the limitations of the car and tyres are especially difficult with Kimi's driving style.

"It was the same at McLaren," Fry added, having also worked with Raikkonen at the British team.

"He was very sensitive to the front of the car - when he and Montoya were together, I think we had about seven different front suspensions for the season.

 

[Jimisgod]

Fry: Water is wet.

[FullWets]

Fry: Water is wet.

Well, some said Kimi is not the same anymore, and that the car was made for understeer as Alonso loves slow, understeering cars that BTW cannot win a championship (don't blame me for the BS, this is what some people have actually said).

 

Fry states very clearly:

 

- Kimi is the same as he was in McLaren days

- He cannot warm the harder compounds as he struggles with understeeering, hence his problems.

 

So he is providing a couple of useful informations after all. A more complete version of the declarations is here:

 

http://www.motorspor...kimis-struggle/

Edited by FullWets, 07 January 2015 - 15:57.

[Ev0d3vil]

Whats new? I thought we already knew? Kimi likes a good front end.

[AustinF1]

Well, some said Kimi is not the same anymore, and that the car was made for understeer as Alonso loves slow, understeering cars that BTW cannot win a championship (don't blame me for the BS, this is what some people have actually said).

Thanks for that link. I think it's also useful to realize that maybe the car wasn't any more to Alonso's liking than it was to Kimi's liking. Both drivers were asked after the season what was the biggest problem holding the car back. They both said it was the lack of front-end grip. Alonso just handled it better.

[kosmos]

This is so last year....

 

I'm more interested to see Kimi driving with the same front suspension again, I hope he learned something from last year.

Edited by kosmos, 07 January 2015 - 16:27.

[Brazzers]

To be honest only ones believing Raikkonen would beat Alonso must have thought it was 2005 and not 2014, maybe they'll have more impetus in 2015. 

[AustinF1]

This is so last year....

 

I'm more interested to see Kimi driving with the same front suspension again, I hope he learned something from last year.

Yeah it's interesting that Ferrari have (supposedly) chosen to continue down that road. I wonder how Kimi took the news.

[Jovanotti]

Thanks for that link. I think it's also useful to realize that maybe the car wasn't any more to Alonso's liking than it was to Kimi's liking. Both drivers were asked after the season what was the biggest problem holding the car back. They both said it was the lack of front-end grip. Alonso just handled it better.

Although Alonso is undeniably much better at adapting in general, Fry also clearly states that the way the F14T handled specifically hurt Kimi's way of driving, i.e. MORE than it did Fernando. Just what many around here said for the whole year and which never was accepted by the other side.

Yeah it's interesting that Ferrari have (supposedly) chosen to continue down that road. I wonder how Kimi took the news.

Not clear at all from the latest Italian news, the approach seems to have changed now that Allison is fully in charge.

Edited by Jovanotti, 07 January 2015 - 16:48.

[prty]

Pullrod = understeer

 

 

 

 

Edited by prty, 07 January 2015 - 17:10.

[MikeV1987]

Alonso induces understeer with steering lock in the corners to help find grip, Kimi does not. No doubt Alonso is more adaptable in a car with a poor front end.

Edited by MikeV1987, 07 January 2015 - 17:11.

[garagetinkerer]

Well, some said Kimi is not the same anymore, and that the car was made for understeer as Alonso loves slow, understeering cars that BTW cannot win a championship (don't blame me for the BS, this is what some people have actually said).

 

Fry states very clearly:

 

- Kimi is the same as he was in McLaren days

- He cannot warm the harder compounds as he struggles with understeeering, hence his problems.

 

So he is providing a couple of useful informations after all. A more complete version of the declarations is here:

 

http://www.motorspor...kimis-struggle/

Renault's of old, in which Alonso won his 2, they were not very oversteery, and yes, Raikkonen is known to love dollops of oversteer as much as he loves dollops of icecream (sorry, couldn't resist )

[FullWets]

Pullrod = understeer

 

 

 

 

On and on it goes...

 

Guys, now seriously:

 

Nobody loves understeering or eversteering, this is F1. What you want is a perfectly stable car in every corner, but that is not possible in real world. There happen to be drivers who can handle just one of them and there are drivers that can handle both. Given you either understeer or oversteer when reaching the limit of the car, handling both is a real advantage for a driver.

[garoidb]

To be honest only ones believing Raikkonen would beat Alonso must have thought it was 2005 and not 2014, maybe they'll have more impetus in 2015. 

 

Is there an assumption here that Raikkonen was better than Alonso in 2005? 

[hotstickyslick]

I think we forget how much Kimi loves oversteer, observe: http://youtu.be/CMVzF2FhuCM?t=2s

[prty]

On and on it goes...

 

Guys, now seriously:

 

Nobody loves understeering or eversteering, this is F1. What you want is a perfectly stable car in every corner, but that is not possible in real world. There happen to be drivers who can handle just one of them and there are drivers that can handle both. Given you either understeer or oversteer when reaching the limit of the car, handling both is a real advantage for a driver.

 

Notice the

 

http://forums.autosp...48#entry6966130
 

[khatibrifath]

His adaptability to all cars is the main reason he dint secure the title.....had he showed the place where ferrari belongs to which kimi and massa showed by scoring handful of points things would have been much better for alonso and ferrari......ferrari were just believing that they have a good car and massa was underperforming......actually alonso was outperforming the car.....for me even massa outperformed the car......the 2012 car was slower than their customer sauber team.........they thought replacing massa will help them secure the title.....world champion raikonnen showed it by scoring 55 points......i am sure ferrari are in upward trend now because kimi and vettel will demand so much from the engineers......i think now was the time for alonso to stay in ferrari because with raikonnen he could have developed a good car......

[pusko]

We already know for years now that Alo can drive any type of car "fast".....and that Rai is very much the oposite. That alone tells A LOT.....who's the better driver and all that. ;-)

[silver]

Thanks for that link. I think it's also useful to realize that maybe the car wasn't any more to Alonso's liking than it was to Kimi's liking. Both drivers were asked after the season what was the biggest problem holding the car back. They both said it was the lack of front-end grip. Alonso just handled it better.

It is very obvious that Alonso handled understeering F14T better than Raikkonen.

 

However according to Allison, even after the first tests, Alonso felt that the limitations of the car were in the rear and Raikkonen felt that the limitations of the car were in the front.

 

It is also obvious that it was not only the understeer of F14T that "killed" Raikkonen's driving, it was also the complete lack of feel of the front.

[CoolBreeze]

He's basically telling us what we already know. Thanks Pat!

[Juan Kerr]

Alonso induces understeer with steering lock in the corners to help find grip, Kimi does not. No doubt Alonso is more adaptable in a car with a poor front end.

He was brought up on it with the Renault he subsequently won the championship with. Being fast with understeer and being fast with oversteer is probably as linked to each other as being good on a motorbike and a rally car. We all saw Alonso deal with a car with a great front end in 2007, he got beaten by a rookie who loves that handling characteristic. I actually think Kimi would beaten both Alonso and Hamilton in 2007 in that McLaren because he could've expressed his ability properly, I think he would've dominated Alonso or Hamilton not just nicked the title

[Jon83]

I for one am shocked to hear this.

[pusko]

@Juan.....
....HaHaHa! :-)

[Ncedi]

It is very obvious that Alonso handled understeering F14T better than Raikkonen.

 

However according to Allison, even after the first tests, Alonso felt that the limitations of the car were in the rear and Raikkonen felt that the limitations of the car were in the front.

 

It is also obvious that it was not only the understeer of F14T that "killed" Raikkonen's driving, it was also the complete lack of feel of the front.

 

Can you provide a link to this for my interest, I seem to remember Allison saying they have the same problems...

 

Anyway,Fernando adapting to cars isn't really news anymore. Give him either and he'll still drive them fast. And yes, Juan, including 2007 when he took that car with a great front end to within a point of the championship.

[as65p]

He was brought up on it with the Renault he subsequently won the championship with. Being fast with understeer and being fast with oversteer is probably as linked to each other as being good on a motorbike and a rally car. We all saw Alonso deal with a car with a great front end in 2007, he got beaten by a rookie who loves that handling characteristic. I actually think Kimi would beaten both Alonso and Hamilton in 2007 in that McLaren because he could've expressed his ability properly, I think he would've dominated Alonso or Hamilton not just nicked the title

 

Hm, yeah, that's what left after 2014, fantasize to your hearts content about alternate histories. I expect more once this season get's underway, then we'll also hear stories how Kimi would really beat Fernando in this years Ferrari...

[skc]

So Kimi and Seb are cut from the same cloth in that regard. Wonder who's preferences will get top billing at Ferrari now

[Mohican]

The 2006-06 Renaults were well known for their rearward weight distribution combined with specially developed Michelin tyres; assume that would have helped Alonso more than most.

When the Renault moved to Bridgestone tyres in 2007, they were nowhere - and that is not necessarily due to being driven by Fisichella and Kovalainen. The Renault was better, but still essentially nowhere in 2008 as well, when again driven by Alonso. We shall perhaps not restart discussion about Singapore and what lengths Alonso will go to in order to win.

 

I find this idolisation of a given driver rather tiresome; surely motor racing is the ultimate equipment sport.

[as65p]

The 2006-06 Renaults were well known for their rearward weight distribution combined with specially developed Michelin tyres; assume that would have helped Alonso more than most.

When the Renault moved to Bridgestone tyres in 2007, they were nowhere - and that is not necessarily due to being driven by Fisichella and Kovalainen. The Renault was better, but still essentially nowhere in 2008 as well, when again driven by Alonso. We shall perhaps not restart discussion about Singapore and what lengths Alonso will go to in order to win.

 

I find this idolisation of a given driver rather tiresome; surely motor racing is the ultimate equipment sport.

 

Yep, that's why normally those with performance on a wider range of equipment are considered better drivers.

[Brazzers]

Is there an assumption here that Raikkonen was better than Alonso in 2005? 

 

No he isn't, but driving a Neweymobile can enhance reputations. 

 

He was brought up on it with the Renault he subsequently won the championship with. Being fast with understeer and being fast with oversteer is probably as linked to each other as being good on a motorbike and a rally car. We all saw Alonso deal with a car with a great front end in 2007, he got beaten by a rookie who loves that handling characteristic. I actually think Kimi would beaten both Alonso and Hamilton in 2007 in that McLaren because he could've expressed his ability properly, I think he would've dominated Alonso or Hamilton not just nicked the title

 

 

I rather take being 'beaten' by finishing equal on points than getting 'beaten' by 70-80+ points to my teammate. 

 

I would suggest domination and beaten has been loosely used here. Although there is no evidence to suggest Raikkonen would beat Alonso or even Hamilton in the MP4-22 other than the enigma with driving style and requirements. 

[prty]

The 2006-06 Renaults were well known for their rearward weight distribution combined with specially developed Michelin tyres; assume that would have helped Alonso more than most.
When the Renault moved to Bridgestone tyres in 2007, they were nowhere - and that is not necessarily due to being driven by Fisichella and Kovalainen. The Renault was better, but still essentially nowhere in 2008 as well, when again driven by Alonso. We shall perhaps not restart discussion about Singapore and what lengths Alonso will go to in order to win.

I find this idolisation of a given driver rather tiresome; surely motor racing is the ultimate equipment sport.

what about fuji?

Also, Renault was using older tyre specs. It was McLaren because of Kimi the ones who got custom made super soft tires. During the first races of the season he was unable to get heat into the tyres. At that moment people pointed at the car being at fault, but time provides incredible hindsight doesn't it?

[thiscocks]

The 2006-06 Renaults were well known for their rearward weight distribution combined with specially developed Michelin tyres; assume that would have helped Alonso more than most.

When the Renault moved to Bridgestone tyres in 2007, they were nowhere - and that is not necessarily due to being driven by Fisichella and Kovalainen. The Renault was better, but still essentially nowhere in 2008 as well, when again driven by Alonso. We shall perhaps not restart discussion about Singapore and what lengths Alonso will go to in order to win.

 

I find this idolisation of a given driver rather tiresome; surely motor racing is the ultimate equipment sport.

[David Lightman]

Next week Pat will reveal the big secrets about what bears do in the woods and what religion is followed by the Pope...

[brzy]

Interesting Hughes article on same topic...

And it's not so black/white as some posters here observe...

 

http://www.motorspor...kimis-struggle/

[kosmos]

 The Renault was better, but still essentially nowhere in 2008 as well, when again driven by Alonso.

 

I guess you didn't watch the 2008 season, I suggest you to search the results on google, far from nowhere if you take into account how Renault started the season.

[Mohican]

I most certainly watched the 2008 season, and saw Alonso win one race fair and square.

And cheat his way to victory in Singapore.

[hotstickyslick]

Interesting Hughes article on same topic...

And it's not so black/white as some posters here observe...

 

http://www.motorspor...kimis-struggle/

James Allen said something similiar in 2008 believing the "real" Kimi would return when slick tires were reintroduced the following year as they would give more bite at the front, and as we all know Massa still matched him until Hungary.

[aditya-now]

So Kimi and Seb are cut from the same cloth in that regard. Wonder who's preferences will get top billing at Ferrari now

 

As Ferrari continue with pull rod, I wonder if they took the preferences of their 2015 drivers in regard at all....

[DrF]

I remember there being some debate over Alonso's broader adaptability to ill-handling cars and Kimi's more narrow driving strength. Pat Fry sheds some light...

http://www.motorspor...n-raikkonen-fry

"To get the most out of Kimi, you need to give him the car to do it," he said.

So he worked with him before and must have had a say in the decision to hire him, so he must have known that they were going to meet his needs more than Fernando.

Edited by DrF, 08 January 2015 - 14:57.

[VincentVega]

He was brought up on it with the Renault he subsequently won the championship with. Being fast with understeer and being fast with oversteer is probably as linked to each other as being good on a motorbike and a rally car. We all saw Alonso deal with a car with a great front end in 2007, he got beaten by a rookie who loves that handling characteristic. I actually think Kimi would beaten both Alonso and Hamilton in 2007 in that McLaren because he could've expressed his ability properly, I think he would've dominated Alonso or Hamilton not just nicked the title

Totally agree. I've been thinking about this for years now, and always been coming to the excact same conclusion. Just watching onboards from 2007 on YT it's clear, that Ferrari was more understeery than McLaren wich had great front end grip. Actually Raikkonen should have stayed in McL and Alo should've been in Ferrari in 2007, then they both could've shown their max potencial.

As Ferrari continue with pull rod, I wonder if they took the preferences of their 2015 drivers in regard at all....

Yes, that's pathetic.

Both of their drivers preffer sharp front-end and they still go for pull-rod

 

-2015

-Ferrari still make car to fit and please Alonso, who is not even there anymore. 

Absolutely pathetic.

[RubberKubrick]

He was brought up on it with the Renault he subsequently won the championship with. Being fast with understeer and being fast with oversteer is probably as linked to each other as being good on a motorbike and a rally car. We all saw Alonso deal with a car with a great front end in 2007, he got beaten by a rookie who loves that handling characteristic. I actually think Kimi would beaten both Alonso and Hamilton in 2007 in that McLaren because he could've expressed his ability properly, I think he would've dominated Alonso or Hamilton not just nicked the title

Let's put it into perspective: By a rookie who was about to become a 30+ GP-winner in a few years, who was about to become an almost 40× polesetter and an at that time future youngest WDC and a multiple WDC in a few years to come.

And got beaten? Not quite. He was still as good as someone like that. (109:109 points, 4:4 wins, 8:9 in quali).

Edited by RubberKubrick, 08 January 2015 - 16:11.

[zottzell]

As Ferrari continue with pull rod, I wonder if they took the preferences of their 2015 drivers in regard at all....

What makes you think that pullrod are to be blamed for Kimi's problem, is it just a matter of when enough people say something it becomes true or do you have something that actually support that theory?

[BJHF1]

He was brought up on it with the Renault he subsequently won the championship with. Being fast with understeer and being fast with oversteer is probably as linked to each other as being good on a motorbike and a rally car. We all saw Alonso deal with a car with a great front end in 2007, he got beaten by a rookie who loves that handling characteristic. I actually think Kimi would beaten both Alonso and Hamilton in 2007 in that McLaren because he could've expressed his ability properly, I think he would've dominated Alonso or Hamilton not just nicked the title

 

I see what's going here...talk about clutching for straws 

[prty]

Let's put it into perspective: By a rookie who was about to become a 30+ GP-winner in a few years, who was about to become an almost 40× polesetter and an at that time future youngest WDC and a multiple WDC in a few years to come.

And got beaten? Not quite. He was still as good as someone like that. (109:109 points, 4:4 wins, 8:9 in quali).

 

And 10:7 in the races.

[FullWets]

Notice the

 

http://forums.autosp...48#entry6966130
 

Of course mate! Just found it funny as a summary of what some end up thinking, after so much misinformation. It just amazes me that people can come to this conclusion. No constructor would use a suspension system that is systematically producing understeer in the car without a very big performance gain on other aspect. So, as pullrod is not a decisive aspect of performance but just slightly better in terms of CoG and aerodynamics, either its effect in traction / tyre handling is almost zero or Ferrari engineers are all ********, which is not the case.

Edited by FullWets, 08 January 2015 - 18:48.

[FullWets]

His adaptability to all cars is the main reason he dint secure the title.....had he showed the place where ferrari belongs to which kimi and massa showed by scoring handful of points things would have been much better for alonso and ferrari......ferrari were just believing that they have a good car and massa was underperforming......actually alonso was outperforming the car.....for me even massa outperformed the car......the 2012 car was slower than their customer sauber team.........they thought replacing massa will help them secure the title.....world champion raikonnen showed it by scoring 55 points......i am sure ferrari are in upward trend now because kimi and vettel will demand so much from the engineers......i think now was the time for alonso to stay in ferrari because with raikonnen he could have developed a good car......

I thought Alonso was difficult to work with because he demanded so much of the engineers...interesting that he was not doing it enough

 

Also interesting that engineers need a slow driver to know how to make a fast car. Were Ferrari refraining themselves to avoid overwhelming the competition?

[igoru]

He was brought up on it with the Renault he subsequently won the championship with. Being fast with understeer and being fast with oversteer is probably as linked to each other as being good on a motorbike and a rally car. We all saw Alonso deal with a car with a great front end in 2007, he got beaten by a rookie who loves that handling characteristic. I actually think Kimi would beaten both Alonso and Hamilton in 2007 in that McLaren because he could've expressed his ability properly, I think he would've dominated Alonso or Hamilton not just nicked the title

 

I most certainly watched the 2008 season, and saw Alonso win one race fair and square.

And cheat his way to victory in Singapore.

...be careful you can cheat yourself....

[FullWets]

It is very obvious that Alonso handled understeering F14T better than Raikkonen.

 

However according to Allison, even after the first tests, Alonso felt that the limitations of the car were in the rear and Raikkonen felt that the limitations of the car were in the front.

 

It is also obvious that it was not only the understeer of F14T that "killed" Raikkonen's driving, it was also the complete lack of feel of the front.

Only that the F14T was not understeering for Alonso. He was capable of warming the tyres and getting the front end working. Proof of it is that Raikkonen was more or less on the same pace when soft compounds were used, and hopelessly slow in the wet or with harder compounds.

 

As for Alonso feeling the rear was limiting the car, it makes sense, since the traction of the car was perceived by all as extremely poor and he noticed no severe understeeering. I nevertheless fail to understand what you mean by lack of feel of the front as being the problem of Raikkonen

[garoidb]

Fry: Water is wet.

 

What about ice?

[FullWets]

I most certainly watched the 2008 season, and saw Alonso win one race fair and square.

And cheat his way to victory in Singapore.

Didn't you say that you were not going to open a discussion? Then please stick to your word

[prty]

Of course mate! Just found it funny as a summary of what some end up thinking, after so much misinformation. It just amazes me that people can come to this conclusion. No constructor would use a suspension system that is systematically producing understeer in the car without a very big performance gain on other aspect. So, as pullrod is not a decisive aspect of performance but just slightly better in terms of CoG and aerodynamics, either its effect in traction / tyre handling is almost zero or Ferrari engineers are all ********, which is not the case.

 

 

I remember that when the F2012 appeared, Newey said that Ferrari just did a pullrod for the sake of doing something different, as in the end pullrod and pushrod provided identical mechanical properties. Then it gets comical reading this forum sometimes.