381 replies to this topic

[HPT]

 
Car made for another driver and heavier car for the bigger part of the season are not excuses but valid reasons for being little slower.

 

[Brod]

Just read part 1 of McLaren.com's Fernando: My Story ... Rising Star. I found this excerpt interesting in terms of the popular theory that Fred prefers an understeering car over a balanced one.

 

It isn't that interesting considering the R24. Until this day people mention 2004 when they are talking about bad seasons of Alonso and he never drove a chassis that caused more understeer than the R24. 

In fact back in the days a lot of Alonso - Fans argued that Alonso only struggled against Trulli because of the understeering car. (the truth is that he was (for example) great in Malaysia and Bahrain while losing points against Trulli). 

 

I see Fans talking about a sticky front end and an understeering car while comparing Alonso 2004 with Alonso 2007 - that alone is a joke. All those people should compare the R24 with the MP4-22 because they are completely different cars. 

Edited by Brod, 14 January 2015 - 00:23.

[BJHF1]

Why did not just adapt instead of making a engineering switch?

Makes no sense. Why would you adapt to a set-up that is most likely ultimately slower (even when maximized in terms of driving technique) and never going to bring success, particularly when you have unlocked a set-up that is quicker??? 

 

It's not semantics,just your comprehension failure.
He wasn't.
 
Car made for another driver and heavier car for the bigger part of the season are not excuses but valid reasons for being little slower.

 

You ought to try bringing some meaningful data (race by race) and deeper explanations to the table for once, instead of sitting in the corner with the 1% who think Kimi's race pace was a match for Alonso. We simply aren't seeing what you're seeing.

 

And where's this proof that Kimi had a "heavier car for the bigger part of the season"? Seems like nothing more than wishful thinking and far fetched excuse hunting to me.

 

 

I thinkyou missed the point: "he made a engineering switch that dialled more oversteer into the car. Immediately he was more comfortable and the results started to materialise"

The point being: It was a good thing he had a car that he could adjust to his liking.

One thing to remember here is that the Renault he was driving in the beginning of his F1 career behaved much in the same way as the Ferrari, Alonso always made huge huge movements with the steering wheel to make the car go where he wanted and his ability to do so was impressive. No doubt that style became comfortable for him and when he got into a real race car at McLaren, he got beaten so hard by a rookie that he rushed back to papa.

Yes, I am intentionally provoking you.
 

 

  Good one. If you consider matching your team mate in points come the end of the season, as getting "beaten so hard"....I'd love to have your opinion on the thrashing Alonso gave Kimi last year.

 

Probably couldn't even find a word in the dictionary to define it. 

 

Gotta love the Kimi fanboy trolls...always taken it to the next unreasonable level     

Edited by BJHF1, 14 January 2015 - 00:52.

[as65p]

It's not semantics,just your comprehension failure.
 

I admit I'm failing to understand your position, that's true.

 

He wasn't.

In every meaningful way Raikkönens season was worse than Alonso. Those things aren't measured by fans imagination or alternate realities in parallel universes, but by results.
 
 

Car made for another driver and heavier car for the bigger part of the season are not excuses but valid reasons for being little slower.

 

Two bullshit statements in one sentence, again. Sure, sometimes KR was just "a little" slower. Sometimes. Most of the time the gap was distinctive, sometimes embarassing, especially in qualifying. And most important, no sign of improvement during the year, apart from some fluke meaningless sessions or selected laps. When Alonso found himself behind on track in the seasons last race, it didn't even look like a fight anymore, he just sailed by Raikkönens car as if it was a backmarker. Normally a battle between equal cars is quite a struggle, but not anymore between those two.

[AustinF1]

It's not semantics,just your comprehension failure.
He wasn't.
 
Car made for another driver and heavier car for the bigger part of the season are not excuses but valid reasons for being little slower.

Uh...link to either of these?

[AustinF1]

It isn't that interesting considering the R24. Until this day people mention 2004 when they are talking about bad seasons of Alonso and he never drove a chassis that caused more understeer than the R24. 

In fact back in the days a lot of Alonso - Fans argued that Alonso only struggled against Trulli because of the understeering car. (the truth is that he was (for example) great in Malaysia and Bahrain while losing points against Trulli). 

 

I see Fans talking about a sticky front end and an understeering car while comparing Alonso 2004 with Alonso 2007 - that alone is a joke. All those people should compare the R24 with the MP4-22 because they are completely different cars. 

So like I said, the popular theory that Fred prefers an understeering car is just more nonsense.

[Brod]

So like I said, the popular theory that Fred prefers an understeering car is just more nonsense.

Of course it is. 

[ardbeg]

Makes no sense. Why would you adapt to a set-up that is most likely ultimately slower (even when maximized in terms of driving technique) and never going to bring success, particularly when you have unlocked a set-up that is quicker??? 

 

 

 

  Good one. If you consider matching your team mate in points come the end of the season, as getting "beaten so hard"....I'd love to have your opinion on the thrashing Alonso gave Kimi last year.

 

Probably couldn't even find a word in the dictionary to define it. 

 

Gotta love the Kimi fanboy trolls...always taken it to the next unreasonable level     

You failed to bold "Yes, I am intentionally provoking you".

A big problem in threads like this is that people read what the want to read and draw the conclusions they want to draw. It keeps the discussions at sand box levels.

What I did was I took some popular arguments from one side and put them on the other side and lo and behold, when presented with their own arguments they found them silly. There are quite a few posters in this thread that just want to be right and that everyone acknowledges that they are right. That's not a discussion.

Fernando was better last season, yes, no doubt. Was he better 2005? Will he be better next season? Was he always better? There are so many things we will never know, but 2015 will give fuel for new theories. Of that we can be certain.

And yes, Fernandos way out of misery during that F3000 was setup changes, not because he adapted. With that I simply say that no matter how much you can adapt you will be nowhere if the driver and car can not be made to fit each other. If the driver can only adapt a little, the car must be able to adapt more. Obviously Kimi brought too little to the table when negotiating with the 2014 Ferrari.

[BJHF1]

You failed to bold "Yes, I am intentionally provoking you".

A big problem in threads like this is that people read what the want to read and draw the conclusions they want to draw. It keeps the discussions at sand box levels.

What I did was I took some popular arguments from one side and put them on the other side and lo and behold, when presented with their own arguments they found them silly. There are quite a few posters in this thread that just want to be right and that everyone acknowledges that they are right. That's not a discussion.

 

I sure hope this applies to some of the Kimi fans in here and not just Alonso's...because if there is a group who will fabricate and conclude things from thin air it would have to be them. Alonso fans have basically dealt with the constant trying pass things off as fact (along with exaggeration) all year long.

 

 

Fernando was better last season, yes, no doubt. Was he better 2005? Will he be better next season? Was he always better? There are so many things we will never know, but 2015 will give fuel for new theories. Of that we can be certain.

And yes, Fernandos way out of misery during that F3000 was setup changes, not because he adapted. With that I simply say that no matter how much you can adapt you will be nowhere if the driver and car can not be made to fit each other. If the driver can only adapt a little, the car must be able to adapt more. Obviously Kimi brought too little to the table when negotiating with the 2014 Ferrari.

 

 

They are completely different scenarios (Kimi not being able to adapt to the F14T vs Alonso finding a set-up with more oversteer during his F3000 days) and not really comparable to begin with.

 

Nowhere in the article did it say he was unable to adapt to the previous set-up (which had more understeer)....this is key. He could have very well driven this set-up to it's absolute potential (as he's seemingly done with numerous cars over his career), adapting as much as could have been asked, but in the end the set-up just didn't have the pure lap time potential to bring success. 

 

On the other hand, with Kimi in 2014...it was clear as day he was unable to adapt enough in order to maximize the potential of the F14T for whatever reason.

Edited by BJHF1, 14 January 2015 - 02:47.

[ardbeg]

 

Nowhere in the article did it say he was unable to adapt to the previous set-up (which had more understeer)....this is key.

He was nowhere the first 7 races and after finding the setup he was a top runner. That is the key. The whole field had identical cars, the difference was the driver and the setup so obviously he could not adapt enough to compensate for the cars behaviour. I know that setup is not only for driver preference, the car need to have grip as and speed as well so it is usually a compromise. It remains though, adaptable or not, the car must have a setup window that the driver are reasonably comfortable with. If the window is small, meaning the car can not change characteristics much, then it is very good if the built in characteristics are something you can handle.

Again - this does not take away anything from Alonso, he handled it, he could tolerate that window. Kimi didn't.

[kosmos]

So no we go back 15 years to try to discredit Alonso's adaptability?

[prty]

No, you don't get it. Before he adjusted the car he did not get any result and was beaten by many in identical cars. That gives that if you can set the car to your liking, all is well. It seems the Ferrari could not be set up to Kimi's liking. In "adaptability" is included what you are supposed to adapt to. Some things are easier to cope with than others and the identity of those things are different for each and every individual, man and beast, on this planet.

I get it, but I don't think you do.
Even if cars are identical, if one car has a setup problem, its maximum speed is slower. But some drivers will get to that maximum, and some won't.
Which is what happened at Ferrari. Both drivers said the balance was off. So it's not like Raikkonen was getting different handling characteristics than Alonso.
What you're trying to say with the F3000 analogy is that Alonso had a better handling car at Ferrari, and that's not the case, therefore the maximum was the same for both, which is not the case in your example.
Yet Alonso got close to that maximum and not Raikkonen, which is the point.

Edited by prty, 14 January 2015 - 05:52.

[MNader]

If you call his 2004 and 2007 seasons bad then I really don't know what else to say. Sure they weren't great but they are no where near 'bad'. And Kimi's last year was bad. In fact, most would agree that it's terrible.

I'm not blaming the team or Kimi. I'm saying last year showed that Alonso is more adaptable and a better driver than Kimi. The only reason why I'm posting is because some people actually tried to argue that. It's insane. The whole world could see it. Just look at where team bosses ranked Alonso and Kimi.

I can't remember Trulli having the same problem but I'd take your word for it. The good overcome their problems pretty quickly while the not so good ones take a whole lot longer. Some drivers always seem to have this and that problem though.

As for no harm to Kimi's reputation, you're certainly in the minority here. Kimi was in the top 3 drivers in many people's list at the end of 2013. Now he won't even make the top 10. I seriously doubt his reputation will recover to anywhere near where it once was no matter what happens from here on in.

 

 

First off, thanks for the solid response an not attempting to facepalm/criticism/fanboy/,,, (any form of personal insult or taking a high ground)

 

As you can see i was just pointing to that Alonso did struggle in those seasons for different reasons (we may or may never know), and none were even close to how dismal Kimi performed this year.

 

I think what i posted here is taken the wrong way as a lot of people seem to be basing this thread as "who is better", Which is what you are referring to as good drivers and bad drivers. adapting to different cars is a big plus for drivers but it certainly is not the only factor for me to base their skills.

 

I work with GT drivers (some factory drivers as well) and can clearly see some of them perform better in certain cars as others, the pattern is always there depending on the car brand as some are simply more used to one way than the other, and my work is to fine tune the car driver package together. i guess the same can be said in F1 as sometimes car characteristics can be quite different.

 

To explain my exact point, i don't rate a "best driver in F1", at least not now when they all are driving but i do have a few top drivers who each have a different set of strengths and weaknesses and for me also this season was an anomaly for Kimi so to me he remains a top driver, unless this form carries on with him.

 

Alonso did a superb job and that is to his credit with a difficult car, Kimi did a bad job. I don't really find the need to say Alonso is better than Kimi based on 1 season together where clearly one of them had a fundamental problem with the car. And i am certainly not saying Kimi is better either. it is just 1 season and one of them didn't perform good enough due to reasons only the team know.

 

 

There are scenarios which would demote Kimi's level for me, but as i said only the team knows what actually happened and why it did

[aramos]

So no we go back 15 years to try to discredit Alonso's adaptability?

One championship in kartng Alonso struggled and lost the championship by 1 point. That's exactly the same as Kimi getting half Fernandos points despite better reliability.

Edited by aramos, 14 January 2015 - 05:56.

[silver]

F14T was not problematic for Raikkonen not only because of it's understeering characteristics. His bigger problem was the lack of feel from the front tires. He simply was not able to get enough feedback what the front tires were doing and that made him to destroy, especially the harder compound, tires as he was not able to warmup the tires properly.

[ardbeg]

I get it, but I don't think you do.
Even if cars are identical, if one car has a setup problem, its maximum speed is slower. But some drivers will get to that maximum, and some won't.
Which is what happened at Ferrari. Both drivers said the balance was off. So it's not like Raikkonen was getting different handling characteristics than Alonso.
What you're trying to say with the F3000 analogy is that Alonso had a better handling car at Ferrari, and that's not the case, therefore the maximum was the same for both, which is not the case in your example.
Yet Alonso got close to that maximum and not Raikkonen, which is the point.

No, what I am trying to say that is that cars  set up "window" does not fit the drivers preference window, there will be problems.
Imagine the Y being the "I'm ok with this" and N is "No way"

Ferrari:  NNNNNNyYYYYyyNNNNNNNNNNNNNN
Alonso:   NNNNNNNNNyYYYYYYyNNNNNNNNNN
Kimi:     NNNNNNNNNNNNyYYYYNNNNNNNNNN
Driver X: NNNNNNNNNNNNNNyYYYYYYyNNNNN

EDIT: Added driver X with the same adaptability as Fernando, but within another window

 

Edited by ardbeg, 14 January 2015 - 11:11.

[Kimble]

No, what I am trying to say that is that cars  set up "window" does not fit the drivers preference window, there will be problems.
Imagine the Y being the "I'm ok with this" and N is "No way"

Ferrari:  NNNNNNyYYYYyyNNNNNNNNNNNNNN
Alonso:   NNNNNNNNNyYYYYYYyNNNNNNNNNN
Kimi:     NNNNNNNNNNNNyYYYYNNNNNNNNNN
Driver X: NNNNNNNNNNNNNNyYYYYYYyNNNNN

EDIT: Added driver X with the same adaptability as Fernando, but within another window

 

 

This is very similar to a diagram I made a while ago.   It's also not unreasonable to assume that a car will drift towards a window most favoured by the No 1 driver.

[maverick69]

Bloody hell!

 

Some of you lot are like a dog who doesn't leave his dead master........ and that's coming from a person who is often accused of spending too much time defending Hamilton.

 

Kimi got tonked..... proper tonked...... royally. There's no point what-so-ever in trying to defend it (a bit like in the 2nd half of 2011 when Lewis decided that F1 was bumper-cars.... and his brain had dissolved).

 

When (if?) the moons re-align - and Kimi gets to stick his front end in again - then rejoice and gloat. In the mean time - I'd be giving this thread a wide berth........ and even less of my thought!

 

Ignorance is bliss Kimi fans!

[BJHF1]

No, what I am trying to say that is that cars  set up "window" does not fit the drivers preference window, there will be problems.
Imagine the Y being the "I'm ok with this" and N is "No way"

Ferrari:  NNNNNNyYYYYyyNNNNNNNNNNNNNN
Alonso:   NNNNNNNNNyYYYYYYyNNNNNNNNNN
Kimi:     NNNNNNNNNNNNyYYYYNNNNNNNNNN
Driver X: NNNNNNNNNNNNNNyYYYYYYyNNNNN

EDIT: Added driver X with the same adaptability as Fernando, but within another window

 

 

Actually, it is you who doesn't seem to get it. And it's even more ironic given that you were the one trying to take the moral high ground, criticizing people reading something in this thread and drawing their own conclusions - this is exactly what you've done with the article regarding Alonso in his F3000 days. 

 

Again, you are trying to claim that the understeering set-up didn't fit Alonso's preferences, thus he was unable to adapt to maximize it's potential in terms of lap time by using the optimal driving technique. <--- This is the crucial assumption on your part which is found nowhere in the article. Simply put, we don't know if it was an adaptability issue or simply an issue with the set-up not providing the proper cornering speed (due to pure physics), or maybe a combination of both. 

 

This is a completely different story to Kimi's struggles in the F14T. I think it is almost a given that he had access to Alonso's set-up (the team wouldn't have let him struggle that badly without trying/checking all avenues), and even with that, he was still struggling and leaving a lot on the table. In that case, there's no argument it was simply an adaptability issue.

[ardbeg]

Bloody hell!

 

Some of you lot are like a dog who doesn't leave his dead master........ and that's coming from a person who is often accused of spending too much time defending Hamilton.

 

Kimi got tonked..... proper tonked...... royally. There's no point what-so-ever in trying to defend it (a bit like in the 2nd half of 2011 when Lewis decided that F1 was bumper-cars.... and his brain had dissolved).

 

When (if?) the moons re-align - and Kimi gets to stick his front end in again - then rejoice and gloat. In the mean time - I'd be giving this thread a wide berth........ and even less of my thought!

 

Ignorance is bliss Kimi fans!

What's wrong with a visualization of why Alonso's ability to adapt is a strength and that it helped him cope with the Ferrari?

[ardbeg]

Actually, it is you who doesn't seem to get it.

Nope, it is still you. The race series in question used identical cars. Alonso struggled until he found the setup. If his setup had not been available in that car, his struggles would have continued. Luckily, as we have learned, he is able to adapt to wide range of car behaviour and he could find a setup that suited both him and the car.
It is still a combination of car a driver preferences. Kimi could get the front right, but going to that extreme he lost the rear. Had he been able to adapt his driving style more, would have needed to tweak the car less.

[BJHF1]

Nope, it is still you. The race series in question used identical cars. Alonso struggled until he found the setup. If his setup had not been available in that car, his struggles would have continued. Luckily, as we have learned, he is able to adapt to wide range of car behaviour and he could find a setup that suited both him and the car.
It is still a combination of car a driver preferences. Kimi could get the front right, but going to that extreme he lost the rear. Had he been able to adapt his driving style more, would have needed to tweak the car less.

 

Why do you seem to not get that a particular car set-up has it's physical limitations in terms of lap time, and no amount of adapting can change this at a certain point? You seem to continually overlook/undermine this important aspect, to try and arrive at the idea that Alonso was unable to adapt to the more understeering set-up in his F3000 days....simply because he was unable to achieve success with it.

 

Again, how do we know that Alonso didn't get the most out of this more understeery set-up? Give me a valid answer please.

 

Adaptability is a great thing, but it can't make you go faster than the car/set-up are ultimately capable of. But in Kimi's case, it was obvious he left a lot on the table last year by not being able to adapt to the F14T (and it would be almost impossible to imagine him not having access to Alonso's set-up for the same car).

Edited by BJHF1, 14 January 2015 - 15:41.

[prty]

No, what I am trying to say that is that cars set up "window" does not fit the drivers preference window, there will be problems.
Imagine the Y being the "I'm ok with this" and N is "No way"

Ferrari: NNNNNNyYYYYyyNNNNNNNNNNNNNN
Alonso: NNNNNNNNNyYYYYYYyNNNNNNNNNN
Kimi: NNNNNNNNNNNNyYYYYNNNNNNNNNN
Driver X: NNNNNNNNNNNNNNyYYYYYYyNNNNN

EDIT: Added driver X with the same adaptability as Fernando, but within another window

You can't deduce that from the F3000 example. You are again mixing relative performance (vs teammate) with absolute performance (how car the fast will go with a given setup).
So back to square one, and it got boring a while ago.

[skyfolker]

In every meaningful way Raikkönens season was worse than Alonso. Those things aren't measured by fans imagination or alternate realities in parallel universes, but by results.

It was only worse because of results,but since you keep pretending that results equate driver's performance you keep posting ridiculous stuff.
 

Sure, sometimes KR was just "a little" slower. Sometimes. Most of the time the gap was distinctive, sometimes embarassing, especially in qualifying. And most important, no sign of improvement during the year, apart from some fluke meaningless sessions or selected laps.

No,in races when they were in similar circumstances(when it only makes sense to compare lap times)sometimes Raikkonen was little faster,usually little slower,rarely their lap times were distinctively different.

When Alonso found himself behind on track in the seasons last race, it didn't even look like a fight anymore, he just sailed by Raikkönens car as if it was a backmarker. Normally a battle between equal cars is quite a struggle, but not anymore between those two.

Well Raikkonen finished race 1 position and 2s behind Alonso which is quite close,but guess for you it's like a gap to a backmarker.That much about "alternate realities".
 

Two bullshit statements in one sentence, again.

It's you who keep posting BS here,there are multiple quotes from drivers and team members that at Ferrari they consider drivers' preferences when designing a car,and since for last year they only had Alonso under contract,when F14T was designed,everything on a car that was based on driver's input was based on Alonso' preferences.

One of those quotes (from few years back-unless Alonso is deluded or doesn't know what he's talking about):"This year I contributed and I think that also my driving style had an influence on the development."

Raikkonen admits his car was heavier(yes,he says "we",but he usually uses plural when he talks about car and other stuff related to racing):http://m.mtv.fi/spor...ipainoa/4340774

[sennafan24]

No,in races when they were in similar circumstances(when it only makes sense to compare lap times)sometimes Raikkonen was little faster,usually little slower,rarely their lap times were distinctively different.

Alonso was usually in better circumstances due to qualifying higher, and obtaining cleaner air. 

 

There were a few races where Kimi got close to Fernando (Brazil, Abu Dhabi, Spain), and a few where Kimi had bad fortune (Hungary, Sepang, Monaco). The rest, Alonso beat him by a hefty margin, and on merit.

[Jimisgod]

I can accept the car was more adapted for Alonso and his preferences, but the simple fact is Kimi was hammered by such a margin it means little. He was not ahead 40% of the time or even 20%. As a tangent, the RBR car of 2014 was probably focused more towards Vettel so that makes Ricciardo look even better.

Hopefully a car leaning more towards Kimi's input will lead to a "Raiknaissance" in 2015.

[ardbeg]

Why do you seem to not get that a particular car set-up has it's physical limitations in terms of lap time, and no amount of adapting can change this at a certain point?

I get it, I brought that up myself. It is just that it is irrelevant in this context which is quite simple: Wrong setup = bad result, regardless of ability to adapt.
The next part is "what is the 'right' setup?"
All drivers will set their cars up differently, so there is not one setup that rules them all. But what I am trying to say is that sometimes your setup is not available for you. When that happens you will have to adapt.

[loki0420]

All those who tries to make Kimi's defeat look like it wasn't his fault can just look back at Hamilton-Button 2010. All your 'reasons' can be applied to Button - sensitive driver, car built for very strong team-mate and other crap. And see how he performed in this very similar situation.

[BJHF1]

I get it, I brought that up myself. It is just that it is irrelevant in this context which is quite simple: Wrong setup = bad result, regardless of ability to adapt.
The next part is "what is the 'right' setup?"
All drivers will set their cars up differently, so there is not one setup that rules them all. But what I am trying to say is that sometimes your setup is not available for you. When that happens you will have to adapt.

It's quite simple - the best setup would be the one that provides the highest overall performance ceiling (in terms of what the car itself can deliver from a dynamic point of view). But equalling important is that the driver is comfortable with it, because having the quickest possible setup means very little if the driver struggles to extract the performance potential.

So this brings us back to how Kimi obviously couldn't deliver (because of lack of adaptability) the performance potential of the F14T that was there for everyone to see, and how this not at all comparable to Alonso's poor results in the early part of his F3000 career (due to some supposed lack of adaptability by you).

We don't know if it was an adaptability issue with the understeering setup or if it just simply took a bit of time to increase the performance ceiling of the car, by tinkering with the cars setup - in which case, he could have been extracting the maximum potential of the car all along, regardless of what setup was used. This is the possibility you continue to ignore.

Edited by BJHF1, 14 January 2015 - 17:53.

[AustinF1]

Why did not just adapt instead of making a engineering switch?

The point was not to indicate Alonso's ability to adapt. Anyone with eyes can see that's a strength of his.

 

The point is that he doesn't like understeer any more than just about anyone else, contrary to what some would have you believe. Ferrari developed the car as much as they were able to, with both drivers citing lack of front-end grip as its biggest problem. One driver handled it much better than the other. Simple.

Edited by AustinF1, 14 January 2015 - 18:21.

[Lemans]

Enjoy, Kimi fans:

 

http://www.theflatea...ociety.org/cms/

[SophieB]

Yeah, thanks for playing 'Kimi vs Fernando: Shitty Re-Run edition', guys. Closed for getting nowhere, slowly, painfully and unpleasantly.