48 replies to this topic

[ninetyzero]

So not only have the FIA listed a 'Future FIA F2' championship in it's list of approved championships into F1 but the cheeky so and so's have only gone and given it the most points, which is interesting as F2 doesn't currently exist and GP2 is currently the next step down from F1. With this in mind I thought this deserved it's own thread as it's an interesting 'what if?'..

 

Personally I think there are enough spec series so I'd like something that is more in keeping with the original F2; constructors build their own cars so that it is a literal 'step down' from F1 like F2/early F3000 were, not just for drivers but teams as well, so that teams can step up to F1 easier like Minardi and Jordan did back in the day. 500hp turbo Hybrid power units, teams can build and develop their own cars but you could keep costs down by maybe having a standard survival cell/crash structure, standard ecu and limit in-season developments (eg front/rear wings can only be updated twice a year, for example). You could also allow customer cars so for example Dallara could build a car and sell it to whomever they like. Also no 'champion can't race again' rule it in GP2, it would be a world championship in it's own right. Such a championship would have a variety and prestige to it that GP2 could never have.

 

Do you think there is a need for an F2 championship or do you think GP2 does a good enough job? If you do think there is room amongst the already crowded junior championships for F2 what do you think it should be? Another spec series? Open chassis? Old F1 cars? What would your ideal F2 championship be?

 

*edit* or maybe you have an idea what the FIA's plans for F2 actually are. I haven't heard anything personally.

Edited by ninetyzero, 07 January 2015 - 18:25.

[charly0418]

Actually if anyone has info or a link of how this F2 thing is gonna work I'd appreciate it, what are they doing now that is gonna make it work?

Edited by charly0418, 07 January 2015 - 18:20.

[Fastcake]

It isn't a complete revelation - there has been a bit of talk that the FIA are working on a new Formula Two series for some time now.

 

I think that the idea being mooted is an open chassis, but controlled engine formula, with a strict cost cap on the cars. It's the same model that they are using for F4, just with faster and more powerful cars.

[Prost1997T]

The only piece I could find was this from Q2 2014: http://www.autosport...t.php/id/114173

[maverick69]

I think the biggest problem that they face is that GP2 is on the F1 bill..... which conveniently lines the pockets of Tango and Cash. 

 

Until that is sorted - then it will probably just bomb again........

[ninetyzero]

I think the biggest problem that they face is that GP2 is on the F1 bill..... which conveniently lines the pockets of Tango and Cash. 

 

Until that is sorted - then it will probably just bomb again........

 

This what I was thinking, whilst GP2 is on the F1 bill F2 will always fail unfortunately.

[FerrariV12]

I agree a fully spec F2 would serve no purpose at all other than to further clutter the one make single seater ladder. And also that junior categories should also serve as a training ground for engineers, designers, teams, bosses, constructors etc. as well as drivers.

 

Sadly economic realities probably make the above a bit of a pipe dream

 

And yeah, at least one if not both of GP2 and FR3.5 would need to - to put it bluntly - go away to make it viable as well. To be honest the absolute ideal scenario would involve those two championships merging under the F2 umbrella, with Renault giving up ownership/exclusivity while continuing to support the series in the same way that Mercedes and VW do F3, with cost-controlled development along the lines of F3 and LMP2 allowed. Probably too many vested interests for that to come true though.

[charly0418]

The only piece I could find was this from Q2 2014: http://www.autosport...t.php/id/114173

 

sweet thanks

 

Berg pretty much confirms that the series wont exist until GP2 or FR 3.5 cease to exist.

[noikeee]

This what I was thinking, whilst GP2 is on the F1 bill F2 will always fail unfortunately.

 

I don't agree. If they manage to set up F2 as a lower-cost alternative with cars capable of matching or approaching GP2 laptimes, offering more superlicense points, they might become worthy rivals or even surpass GP2. Drivers would then be faced with the choice of either spending less and getting more points, or being in the F1 paddock and getting trained in Pirelli tyres.

 

This kinda occupies FR3.5's current space, their selling point is the fact they're a cheap alternative to GP2, so no wonder they're trying to kill it off.

[Wingcommander]

I dont think that anyone needs another spec junior formula class. However, a cost capped version of F1 could be intresting. Make it faster than the current F1 cars and then we are talking.

[Mohican]

The FIA allocates most points to a category that does not yet exist; what a farce. The greed is ridiculously clear.

[nosecone]

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/118147

 

 

The FIA has started work on its plans to bring back Formula 2 to act as the main feeder category to Formula 1 in the future.

 

Still not sure whether we need another feeder category

[ExFlagMan]

Maybe as a replacement for F1 when the greed eventually makes F1 disappear up its own air intake.

[RedBaron]

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/118147

 

 

Still not sure whether we need another feeder category

 

Formula 1 needs more feeder categories. Sauber have many drivers to sign.

[TennisUK]

If it's a multi constructor formula it would have some merit. Given more super licence points are awarded for this than gp2 it will be interesting to see how it fares. I wonder what races it will share the bill with and where it goes? If it's going to be an f1 feeder series it needs to visit some f1 tracks to be credible, which means WTCC isn't a viable option to share the bill with these days. Gp2 suffers hugely due to cost with Flavio and Mechachrome leaching the category as they have the monopoly on spare parts but does benefit from the credibility of running on the F1 bill at proper tracks.

[ExFlagMan]

Or they could just run it a 'real' tracks, the ones Bernie deems too be beneath the aspirations/cannot afford the sanctions fee of F1

[Fastcake]

You could run a decent 10-12 event series solely in Europe, which should help keep costs down.

[Nemo1965]

One thing that I would find necessary for a new F2... is that current F1 drivers regularly drive races in it. Perhaps as non-championship-contenders, but still: as racers. Jochen Rindt, Ronnie Petersson, Niki Lauda, Jacky Ickx all got chances in F1, ultimately, because they could prove their speed against established drivers.

[Risil]

It's the FIA's attitude to communication that really bugs me. Why is there a need for a new series "bridging the gap between F3 and F1 and completing the single-seater ladder"? What's wrong with GP2, WSR and arguably GP3? If the answer is "because they're not administrated by the FIA" then that's not good enough. Why does there particularly need to be a series to "bridge the gap" when talented drivers have always been able to move directly from F3 to F1?

 

These are all reasonable questions.

 

When the FIA decided to cut out most of the chassis manufacturers from the WEC's P2 class -- and abolish tyre and engine competition despite the presence of Honda, Nissan, Zytek, Dunlop, Michelin and others -- they left the explanations to Hugues de Chaunac, president of ORECA and therefore one of the move's main beneficiaries.

 

I know this is sports politics so the last people who need to be kept in the loop are the fans -- but judging from the responses (or in the case of "new F2", lack of them) within motorsport, it doesn't seem like they've talked to most anyone.

 

Baffling (and depressing, but then you wouldn't go to dispatches from NASCAR, FIFA or the IOC looking for a pick-me-up either). Maybe Ari Vatanen was the wiser choice after all.

Edited by Risil, 21 March 2015 - 13:06.

[Fastcake]

If Formula Two is to be an open competition, and not a spec series, I would say that is reason enough to reintroduce it. We've spent too long with spec series at this level of competition.

Even if the FIA are only interested in taking control themselves, I would argue in the long run that is no bad thing. GP2 is run solely for the profit of CVC, and it's not just pushing away potential drivers but also driving teams under. And while Renault have been doing a decent job running the World Series, their aims may not exactly align with the interest of motorsport, and I doubt they would want to run an open series. I may not have confidence in the current FIA leadership, but I do think motor sport should be controlled by those whose sole interest is in developing the sport.

[Risil]

Yeah, I think there are solid possible reasons to do it. But why not explain what they are, like an accountable politician would (ought to)? If it's to avoid conflict until the new F2 is a done deal, then why announce it now?

[noikeee]

I think the reason this is being done silently is because it's a direct attack to GP2 and WSR... which the FIA can't say on record.

 

Ultimately if they manage to kill off or severely weaken those series, by introducing a cheaper alternative, it's for the good of the sport.

[Risil]

Funny how when it's NASCAR or F1 trying to kill off or severely weaken a rival series...

[Fastcake]

Yeah, I think there are solid possible reasons to do it. But why not explain what they are, like an accountable politician would (ought to)? If it's to avoid conflict until the new F2 is a done deal, then why announce it now?

Communication really isn't Todt's thing is it. It's a shame, but you know how these sports federations are with their Stalinesque leadership clique.

[Risil]

Yeah. If politics enthusiasts want a good example of the non-inevitability of democracy, sports are it.

[maximilian]

Ironic that we seem to be getting another "feeder" series to F1, when F1 is already FULL.  Or rather had "gastric bypass surgery"

 

What exactly are they trying to feed here?  All these feeder series are the FINAL station for 98% of drivers, without a snowball's chance in hades to make it to F1's ... what... 16?  Maybe soon 14?  spots?    And half of those aren't taken by "merit in feeder series", either.  But by merit in checkbook.

 

So maybe F2 should become what F1 was once.  An open global championship of good racers and a variety of teams on classic tracks in a non-franchise affordable environment - build or buy a car, show up, race.  Rinse and repeat.

Edited by maximilian, 21 March 2015 - 16:02.

[Thrasymakus]

What exactly are they trying to feed here? All these feeder series are the FINAL station for 98% of drivers, without a snowball's chance in hades to make it to F1's ... what... 16? Maybe soon 14? spots? And half of those aren't taken by "merit in feeder series", either. But by merit in checkbook.

If the new F2 turns out to be an open chassis formula then maybe the idea is not to feed drivers into F1, but teams/constructors...

[noikeee]

Ironic that we seem to be getting another "feeder" series to F1, when F1 is already FULL.  Or rather had "gastric bypass surgery"

 

What exactly are they trying to feed here?  All these feeder series are the FINAL station for 98% of drivers, without a snowball's chance in hades to make it to F1's ... what... 16?  Maybe soon 14?  spots?    And half of those aren't taken by "merit in feeder series", either.  But by merit in checkbook.

 

So maybe F2 should become what F1 was once.  An open global championship of good racers and a variety of teams on classic tracks in a non-franchise affordable environment - build or buy a car, show up, race.  Rinse and repeat.

 

I believe the merit by checkbook problem is exactly what they're trying to fix here. I'm cautiously optimistic because they seemed to have done a very good job of that in sorting out F3.

 

I don't know about totally wide open development though, typically that makes things less affordable not more. Of course there's also the alternative danger with a single supplier that it can slowly ramp up the costs over time as Dallara did with GP2 (which was so successful precisely because it first showed up as the affordable alternative 10 years ago, radically becoming the first feeder category to cut development), but I suspect there just wasn't enough will from the people in charge of GP2 to solve the problem... and they probably got a share of the slice anyway. The FIA won't be invested in this for profit so would be in a more fitting position to tackle the issue.

 

I also think the FIA need to go one step further and sort out karting too, people who arrive properly trained and with a "name" at the open-wheelers, are the ones that outspent everyone else to death in karting, and the talent pool is becoming ridiculously narrow from that very beginning. And, OF COURSE, the problems with F1 are much more serious than the feeder ladder problems, but doesn't mean they can't keep some people trying to sort out that level too.

 

I agree it's unfortunate that it's being done in a covert, silent, dictatorial way. But I think you need to play the game of politics. They're effectively opening up direct competition to a series owned by Renault, at a time Renault's considering to get into F1 as a constructor, surely you'd want to raise as little attention as possible to your plans and try not to open up a public war with them.

[FerrariV12]

Yeah, I'd be inclined to work with Renault and say you want them as a (a, not the) engine supplier and partner in the formula. In the same way Merc and VW support F3. Whether they'd be up for that is another matter entirely, of course...

[AustinF1]

New FIA Formula 2 must be 'difficult and physical' - Domenicali

 

www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/118326

 

That quote where Stefano describes what the F2 series should be like ... it sounds a lot like he's describing what F1 should be like as well...

 

 

[AustinF1]

So, where will this leave GP2?

[HistoryFan]

Motorsport aktuell claims that GP2 will become the new Formula 2 series.

[AustinF1]

Motorsport aktuell claims that GP2 will become the new Formula 2 series.

Ah, cool. Makes sense. Thanks!

[Fastcake]

It makes very little sense actually. The aims of Bernie and the FIA are completely at odds nowadays, so why would they agree to merge the two series.

What would make sense is the new F2 subsuming FR3.5, not GP2.

[maverick69]

Been told that a tuned up (600bhp + ERS) version of the AER Indy Lights engine is a strong contender - with an OEM badge on it (this is also theoretically consistent with the new Super Formula and DTM regs). Also, the VW RallyX engine   

 

Chassis out to tender - could be Williams again...... But Dallara will be able to provide a rebodied IL-15 at a reasonable cost which would tie in with AER.

[AustinF1]

It makes very little sense actually. The aims of Bernie and the FIA are completely at odds nowadays, so why would they agree to merge the two series.

What would make sense is the new F2 subsuming FR3.5, not GP2.

Yeah, it does seem like bernie is giving something up here. But if that's the case, rest assured he's getting something in return.

[balage06]

Any news about this? I haven't heard anything about the new F2 championship for a while.

[TyreSmokeDownshift]

Well a deal with GP2 to become the new F2 collapsed after talks with Eccles Cake fell through. So the FIA may go it alone:

 

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/124924

[Anja]

So in order to make the junior ladder simpler, they'll create yet another "top" feeder series. Lovely.

[Atreiu]

What engine will F2 cars use?

[Brandz07]

Some sort of hybrid engine supposedly.

[William Hunt]

So in order to make the junior ladder simpler, they'll create yet another "top" feeder series. Lovely.

 

And in the proces they destroyed a very nice series (World Series by Renault)

[Jazza]

Well a deal with GP2 to become the new F2 collapsed after talks with Eccles Cake fell through. So the FIA may go it alone:

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/124924

Well that shows my ignorance. I always assumed GP2 was under the FIA anyway. I thought Charlie and the rest of the gang made decisions regarding race start, safety car etc, so what does "self governed" mean? I know Bernie owns the thing, but it always seemed governed by the FIA anyway.

I still don't get why the FIA can't just make F2 happen. If F2 was on every F1 weekend (including flyaway races) and the series was worth more superlicence points, that would just kill GP2 whether Bernie likes it or not. Any upcoming driver would flock to F2 just for the track experience and licence points.

[noikeee]

I still don't get why the FIA can't just make F2 happen. If F2 was on every F1 weekend (including flyaway races) and the series was worth more superlicence points, that would just kill GP2 whether Bernie likes it or not. Any upcoming driver would flock to F2 just for the track experience and licence points.

 

Depends. Including the flyaway races would make F2 very very expensive to run a season in. You could end up with a repeat of the GP2 vs WSR choice for drivers, where GP2 was more expensive because it followed F1, and WSR cheaper but also slightly less competitive and you don't get the F1 exposure. Except in this case GP2 would fill in where WSR was, and F2 filling in where GP2 used to be.

 

In reality I'm not sure pushing F2 on F1 weekends at all costs is really feasible and whether GP2 is contractually signed already to support some F1 events or not.

[BRG]

And in the proces they destroyed a very nice series (World Series by Renault)

Not really.  Renault stopped bankrolling it, with the effect that we see now - it is dying on its feet.

[Radoye]

What i would like to see for this "F2" is actually F1-legal cars being run on a limited (capped) budget with custom cars allowed (current F1 cars from World Championship constructors, last years cars, or cars supplied by an outside / spec manufacturer) as well as original designs. A sort of a cost-capped playground for prospective F1 teams, drivers and tracks, before they make a bid for the Big Time.

 

Several regional championships (European, Americas, East Asia + Oceania, Middle East + Africa), races 1/2 GP distance (~ 160 km / 100 miles, 1 hr length) with simplified rules regarding tires and fuel. When F1 World Championship is in the region, "F2" races are run in support of the F1 weekend. "F2" teams are invited to prequalify for the F1 race (to make the number up to a full grid of 26 cars) if they wish to do so, but they are not eligible for constructor's points.

 

Although, the chances to see something like this are zero to none.

[William Hunt]

Not really.  Renault stopped bankrolling it, with the effect that we see now - it is dying on its feet.

 

Renault stopped bankrolling it AFTER the FIA decided to grant few points for the World Series by Renault regarding the Super Licence!

As a result Renault backed out and teams started leaving that championship.

Edited by William Hunt, 28 June 2016 - 01:26.

[HistoryFan]

What i would like to see for this "F2" is actually F1-legal cars being run on a limited (capped) budget with custom cars allowed (current F1 cars from World Championship constructors, last years cars, or cars supplied by an outside / spec manufacturer) as well as original designs. A sort of a cost-capped playground for prospective F1 teams, drivers and tracks, before they make a bid for the Big Time.

 

Several regional championships (European, Americas, East Asia + Oceania, Middle East + Africa), races 1/2 GP distance (~ 160 km / 100 miles, 1 hr length) with simplified rules regarding tires and fuel. When F1 World Championship is in the region, "F2" races are run in support of the F1 weekend. "F2" teams are invited to prequalify for the F1 race (to make the number up to a full grid of 26 cars) if they wish to do so, but they are not eligible for constructor's points.

 

Although, the chances to see something like this are zero to none.

Fe cars are quite tooo complicated and expensive for a F2 championship, so that's never going to happen

Unfortunately

[Rob29]

Thought 'World Series by Renault' was the title of Renault race series package? Renault dropped the FR 3.5 races-FR2.0 & GT cars still run.I only ever went to one meeting -Bilbao,Spain in 2005 which I thought was great.