100 replies to this topic

[HPT]

Just read this http://www.autosport...t.php/id/117368

 

"One avenue under consideration increasing the width of the tyres - which would help improve grip through corners and potentially allow drivers to push harder."

 

"Although F1 chiefs are hoping to begin making changes to the cars - such an increasing downforce and tweaking bodywork designs - as early as next year, Hembery thinks a tyre change could only come for the season after."

 

 

Didn't they change the regulations because there was too much downforce? That they wanted to make the drivers do more work? That cars should slide and skill should come back into play? So after all the $$$ and energy spent on achieving that, they are now considering reverting to the old formula?

 

Sometimes it seems like the powers that be in F1 really have no freaking clue what they or the viewing masses really want.

[aramos]

So more power, more grip, more downforce. Aren't they trying to reduce speeds?

[ardbeg]

For as long as can remember they have cut down either tire, aero or engine performance each season to keep speeds down. now they want to increase the performance in all three areas? At once? Will they have the run-off areas in a secret dimension?

[aramos]

For as long as can remember they have cut down either tire, aero or engine performance each season to keep speeds down. now they want to increase the performance in all three areas? At once? Will they have the run-off areas in a secret dimension?

 

Knee jerk reaction to viewer figures.

[V8 Fireworks]

So more power, more grip, more downforce. Aren't they trying to reduce speeds?

No, they are trying to increase TV ratings and circuit attendances.   

[TF110]

What was so wrong with cars from the 2000's up to '08? No passing? Most passes now are drs. So they couldn't just do that in '09, they had to have ugly front and rear wings? I think people are dropping in viewership because the lack of quality competition. Its so status quo and we see teams fail plus silly pay drivers that are relatively slow. F1 is weak in that area and the standardization is part of it. Wide tires and aero arent going to change that. The cars will look better, but how many will be there?

[Brian1956]

How about increasing tyre width without increasing the overall width of the car? Make the extra width inboard of where it currently is, that should make things interesting!

[Henri Greuter]

Also to work on if they really want to enforce these new rules.

 

Optimize the DRS conditions to enable overtaking .......

 

 

Henri

[Nonesuch]

Haven't we seen often enough that drivers are already able to push harder, when, for example, a Mercedes was outside the top 2; like Hamilton in Germany, and Rosberg in Belgium or Russia?

 

They just don't want to under normal conditions for a variety of other reasons because overall it is better to save tyres, save the engines, save fuel.

 

Giving the drivers wider tyres will make a small difference, I'm sure, but it seems like more of the old FIA 'address the symptom' problem-solving.

Edited by Nonesuch, 16 January 2015 - 08:31.

[HamiltonFanboy]

Wide tyres would look awful on the current cars.

[SenorSjon]

How about increasing tyre width without increasing the overall width of the car? Make the extra width inboard of where it currently is, that should make things interesting!

 

Even smaller cars? They should be wider, not smaller. A wider car also gives some drag to reduce topspeed.

 

 

Haven't we seen often enough that drivers are already able to push harder, when, for example, a Mercedes was outside the top 2; like Hamilton in Germany, and Rosberg in Belgium or Russia?

 

They just don't want to under normal conditions for a variety of other reasons because overall it is better to save tyres, save the engines, save fuel.

 

Giving the drivers wider tyres will make a small difference, I'm sure, but it seems like more of the old FIA 'address the symptom' problem-solving.

 

Because of all the endurance rules, everyone is always saving parts. That isn't much fun to look at.

[garagetinkerer]

There's no such thing as "too safe," but then again, F1 has been quite safe, and apart from freak accidents, things have become much better. While most here will whinge, i'd like to shout out a thank you to Max (yes, that one!) Given how things were, for some time (a handful of years easy) i have been feeling that the formula could allow for faster cars, but for the sake of overall race duration, which in turn could be addressed by additional few laps (well, give them one more engine really!). Now they should bring back refuelling, and that would quicken lap times even more.

[Ferrari_F1_fan_2001]

So more power, more grip, more downforce. Aren't they trying to reduce speeds?

 

All that money spent slowing the sport down and then they will have to spend the same amount of money speeding the cars up again.

 

400mm rear tyres sound awesome. This is what F1 should be about, the biggest, the best, fastest, most outrageous etc.

 

From a PR point of view, this 400mm rear tyre idea surely cannot hurt.

[HistoryFan]

How wide were the tyres in the 70s? Has anyone any details about this topic? What's the record? Were there differences between the different tyre makers? What were the rules in this time?

Edited by HistoryFan, 16 January 2015 - 09:21.

[Pingguest]

Formula One need their cars having more power and less grip. Wider tyres will make them more durable and provide a smaller slip ratio, hence it would not improve spectacle. From an overtaking point of view, wider tyres could make close racing more possible, but that is only the case when downforce is massively reduced.

[P123]

Depends how much wider they make the tyres.  They could looks as comical and disproportionate to the rest of the car as the snow plow front wings introduced in 2009.  There should be less downforce though.  Cars on rails don't provide good racing.

[Tourgott]

Change is needed but this is going in the wrong direction - again. They are so stupid, I can't believe it.

[Seanspeed]

What was so wrong with cars from the 2000's up to '08? No passing? Most passes now are drs. So they couldn't just do that in '09, they had to have ugly front and rear wings? I think people are dropping in viewership because the lack of quality competition. Its so status quo and we see teams fail plus silly pay drivers that are relatively slow. F1 is weak in that area and the standardization is part of it. Wide tires and aero arent going to change that. The cars will look better, but how many will be there?

Yes, the problem was no passing. The 09 regulations were done in an attempt to improve the aero turbulence problem but found its just not enough. So DRS became the fix and it works.

Status quo? Eh, not too much. Especially not with the shakeup we just had in 2014.

Silly pay drivers? Pay drivers are much higher quality than they were in the past.

Standardization has nothing to do with any of these things. In fact, if the regulations were more open, costs would be even higher and the need for pay drivers would increase.

Anyways, wider tires sound great, but not more downforce. The cars corner fast enough and the more downforce there is, the more reliant on downforce the cars are, and the more that turbulence hurts their ability to follow through corners. While DRS works well enough to balance things out some, we don't want to make it so that DRS has to do even more.

[OO7]

How about increasing tyre width without increasing the overall width of the car? Make the extra width inboard of where it currently is, that should make things interesting!

Welcome to the forum Brian.

 

I posted in another thread that I'd like to see F1 cars return to the physical dimensions (for the most part) mandated in 1991, that would mean 18in rear tyres and 2150mm maximum width.

[Pingguest]

Yes, the problem was no passing. The 09 regulations were done in an attempt to improve the aero turbulence problem but found its just not enough. So DRS became the fix and it works.

Status quo? Eh, not too much. Especially not with the shakeup we just had in 2014.

Silly pay drivers? Pay drivers are much higher quality than they were in the past.

Standardization has nothing to do with any of these things. In fact, if the regulations were more open, costs would be even higher and the need for pay drivers would increase.

Anyways, wider tires sound great, but not more downforce. The cars corner fast enough and the more downforce there is, the more reliant on downforce the cars are, and the more that turbulence hurts their ability to follow through corners. While DRS works well enough to balance things out some, we don't want to make it so that DRS has to do even more.

 

Despite - in my opinion partly because of - the standardization costs are still out of control. As the regulations mandate the cars to converge, the returns on investments have diminished and hence costs of winning have risen.

[Cyanide]

Change is needed but this is going in the wrong direction - again. They are so stupid, I can't believe it.

 

Please, tell us a direction that would satisfy all the hungry mouths around here? Because nothing they come up with will ever please people, especially this community right here. 

 

First it was aero, then it was the noise, then tyres, then noses, now tyres again. There's always some bitching around here. Why don't you sit back, relax and see how it all pans out before calling them stupid again?

[aramos]

Please, tell us a direction that would satisfy all the hungry mouths around here? Because nothing they come up with will ever please people, especially this community right here.

First it was aero, then it was the noise, then tyres, then noses, now tyres again. There's always some bitching around here. Why don't you sit back, relax and see how it all pans out before calling them stupid again?

The formula was pretty great this year. Mercedes dominated but the tracing was excellent, mostly thanks to Alonso and Ricciardo but it was one of the best seasons racing wise in years.

[MrAerodynamicist]

Yes please to Wider tyres and 1000bhp, no to more downforce.

[Fastcake]

The cars certainly do not need any more downforce. Cars on rails unable to close in on each other make for poor racing.

Wider rear tyres do sound like a good idea, though I'm not sure if the cars will require any other changes to go with them.

[SenorSjon]

Please, tell us a direction that would satisfy all the hungry mouths around here? Because nothing they come up with will ever please people, especially this community right here. 

 

First it was aero, then it was the noise, then tyres, then noses, now tyres again. There's always some bitching around here. Why don't you sit back, relax and see how it all pans out before calling them stupid again?

 

 

The formula was pretty great this year. Mercedes dominated but the tracing was excellent, mostly thanks to Alonso and Ricciardo but it was one of the best seasons racing wise in years.

 

Funny that both of you have avatars of 1990 and 1991 cars.

Edited by SenorSjon, 16 January 2015 - 11:20.

[Tourgott]

Please, tell us a direction that would satisfy all the hungry mouths around here? Because nothing they come up with will ever please people, especially this community right here. 

 

First it was aero, then it was the noise, then tyres, then noses, now tyres again. There's always some bitching around here. Why don't you sit back, relax and see how it all pans out before calling them stupid again?

 

You can't please everyone but they recognized that F1 is in a critical phase. So if they're going to make changes - what is a step forward to a few months ago when they told us that everything is ok - then they should do it right.

[OO7]

The cars certainly do not need any more downforce. Cars on rails unable to close in on each other make for poor racing.

Wider rear tyres do sound like a good idea, though I'm not sure if the cars will require any other changes to go with them.

If they are attempting to achieve 2013 levels of cornering performance, I don't believe cars with over 1000bhp and even more torque than they have now would behave as if on rails.

[Rob]

I like the sound of wider tyres if they reduce downforce levels at the same time. It's the mechanical/aero grip ratio that needs to change, I can't see things getting any better if you increase both.

[ExFlagMan]

1000bhp means sod all in the corners, even if you made the tyres 2m wide they could not use that amount of power. Also, wider tyres = smaller gaps, so I doubt it will help increase overtaking.

[SenorSjon]

On the tilkedromes it shouldn't be a problem. And we still have the miles of tarmac runoff. So car width can't be an excuse. In the past it was a lame excuse as well, those cm's wouldn't make a difference in overtaking. Wider cars would also increase the effect of slipstreaming so we can finally bin DRS.

[dau]

[...]

 

Sometimes it seems like the powers that be in F1 really have no freaking clue what they or the viewing masses really want.

Not sure the viewing masses know what they want either. I would've expected this idea to be pretty popular with the "everything was better in the 60s/70s/80s" crowd.

 

Of course, it's not even a serious proposal yet, just a Pirelli pitch for their contract extension negotiations, i guess.

[noikeee]

I don't mind the proposed changes. The cars look slow and are slow, so ramping up things proportionally in all areas makes some sense, provided they don't go overboard into unsafe territory. There's several benefits from an increase in performance in every area:

 

Engine - perhaps we can get a better sound, or at least a less **** sound

Downforce - main reason why the cars look slow in the corners and aren't as physical to drive at the moment as they used to

Tyres - main reason why drivers are afraid to pushing in the corners, they need to be driven too far apart from the limit to last any sensible amount of time

 

More downforce could hurt passing yes, but to be honest DRS has often been a bit overpowered as it is. If it can hurt passing a little, amusingly we may hit a decent sweet spot for good racing. And yes this is assuming DRS is here to stay, which I know is an unpopular thing to assume and support, but I've had that discussion like 20 times in this board already, so I'm not going into yet another lenghty debate on that (to shorten things up, my position is based on the fact we're yet to find any proven solution in real life, of how to kill the dirty air effect without ruining corner speed wildly).

[jjcale]

They should only worry about the cars looking and sounding good .... and being fast. This is a male dominated fanbase and they need to appeal to everyman's inner little boy to keep and grow the fanbase.

 

Get the cars to look and sound good and the racing will sort itself out after that.... and anyway folks like me wont give a monkey's if its processional provided it looks and sounds awesome! 

 

Out with environmentalism, out with conservation, out with skinny waifish looking drivers who speak in PC corporate speak! ... and watch the viewing figures rebound rapidly. 

[uffen]

If they go for wider rear tires (a good thing, IMO) they will have to reduce downforce once more. That is the only way to go. The mantra is "more mechanical grip, less aero grip" after all.

[Pingguest]

Engine - perhaps we can get a better sound, or at least a less **** sound

Downforce - main reason why the cars look slow in the corners and aren't as physical to drive at the moment as they used to

Tyres - main reason why drivers are afraid to pushing in the corners, they need to be driven too far apart from the limit to last any sensible amount of time

 

I rather see cars being technically demanding instead of physically.

[BlinkyMcSquinty]

Welcome to the forum Brian.

 

I posted in another thread that I'd like to see F1 cars return to the physical dimensions (for the most part) mandated in 1991, that would mean 18in rear tyres and 2150mm maximum width.

I fully agree. Where did it all go wrong? Narrow cars, narrow tires, incredibly ugly cars, and a formula built on failed ideas.

 

[RA2]

Why cant Pirelli give kimi his Michelin tyre dimensions of 305 mm contact patch?

 

Pirelli contact patch of the current tyre is an inadequate 245

[DaddyCool]

Not sure the viewing masses know what they want either. 

 

I think it's fairly simple:

 

1. Good-looking cars that look fast on TV and sound well. Now I know that beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but the post-2008 cars are just damn ugly, no matter to which previous era do you compare it. They also look dead slow on the screen, and the noise issue has been discussed at length already.

 

2. Good racing, be it on-track action or strategy (Monza & Silverstone & Spa 2008, Nürburgring 2011, Canada 11 and 14, Bahrein 14, Brazil finale thrillers, etc.). Not tyre, engine, gearbox, and fuel saving that we have nowadays. 

 

Now obviously you can't have dramatic races every weekend, and surely you can't please everyone, but one could argue that current F1 both looks and feels bad. 

[Pingguest]

I think it's fairly simple:

 

1. Good-looking cars that look fast on TV and sound well. Now I know that beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but the post-2008 cars are just damn ugly, no matter to which previous era do you compare it. They also look dead slow on the screen, and the noise issue has been discussed at length already.

 

2. Good racing, be it on-track action or strategy (Monza & Silverstone & Spa 2008, Nürburgring 2011, Canada 11 and 14, Bahrein 14, Brazil finale thrillers, etc.). Not tyre, engine, gearbox, and fuel saving that we have nowadays. 

 

Now obviously you can't have dramatic races every weekend, and surely you can't please everyone, but one could argue that current F1 both looks and feels bad. 

 

Doesn't the fuel saving bring strategy then?

[Richard T]

1000bhp means sod all in the corners, even if you made the tyres 2m wide they could not use that amount of power. Also, wider tyres = smaller gaps, so I doubt it will help increase overtaking.

HP doesn't have a significant effect on torque.

And either way, the LMP1s of today has in excess of 1000hp for a few seconds in corner exit and loads of torque. They don't need 2m wide tyres, in fact they only need 360mm ;)

[dau]

So now we only need to agree on what "good" actually is. Which, considering that discussions about what constitues "good" movies, music, art, looks etc. fill entire forums on the internet, is probably the opposite of "fairly simple".

Edited by dau, 16 January 2015 - 15:10.

[OO7]

I fully agree. Where did it all go wrong? Narrow cars, narrow tires, incredibly ugly cars, and a formula built on failed ideas.

 

One of my all-time favorite F1 cars.

[ChrisF1MyLife]

reeks of how do we go back several years without actually admitting we were wrong, slow clap for Paul Hembry, Bridgestone and Michelin etc must be laughing up their sleeves

[BlinkyMcSquinty]

Front and rear tires are sized based on cornering force, power to the rear tires, and expected grip level of the tires. If you took a current car and made the tires narrower, they would slide a lot more. If you took today's tires and made them more durable (harder) they would slide more. Make them too wide, and the tires have trouble getting up to temperature.

 

Personally I would love to see fat but hard and durable tires, wide cars, 1/3 the downforce of today, and although retain the ban on refuelling, no limits on carried capacity and fuel flow rates. Oh yea, most important part, as much power available as desired.

 

When you combine this with the proposed ban on pit assistance for the driver, we would see drivers decide for themselves when to unleash the beast, when to save and conserve engines, cars very capable of slipping and sliding if the driver screws up, and action on the track.

 

Racing is supposed to be fun to watch, not agonizing over fuel flow rates, wonky tires, and driving to a delta.

 

Unleash the beast.

[BlinkyMcSquinty]

reeks of how do we go back several years without actually admitting we were wrong, slow clap for Paul Hembry, Bridgestone and Michelin etc must be laughing up their sleeves

It is a result of questionable decisions that accumulate over time to produce this genetically defective product.

[Nathan]

More tire, more *torque*. less downforce. 

 

How about no rear wings?  Create a fin to keep the billboard area.

[jonpollak]

It is a result of questionable decisions that accumulate over time to produce this genetically defective product.

 

... there's nothing more contagious than a bad idea.

Jp

[morrino]

Wider tyres! They looked so good. Its a shame they're narrowed in 1993 and ruined the beautiful proportions.

 

 

[ch103]

Wider tyres! They looked so good. Its a shame they're narrowed in 1993 and ruined the beautiful proportions.

 

 

 

Tires aside, Alonso's Ferrari looks far better than the other one.

[ANF]

The front tyres on the Ferrari 641 look narrower than the ones on last year's car?