43 replies to this topic

[Glengavel]

I was reading the Wikipedia entry for the Lotus 43 and one contributor had added a sentence to the effect that Chapman had been offered the Repco engine for 1966. I've taken it out because I can't find any confirmation of this, never mind how unlikely it sounds, but it set me wondering - were there any other options considered besides the BRM H16? And did BRM know the Cosworth was in the offing?

 

[Doug Nye]

I don't recall Team Lotus having been offered the Repco engine for 1966 - in fact I think that Jack Brabham who prompted the Repco V8 project would have had some pretty terse things to say about any such offer being made to his primary rival. BRM's people were very well aware that Duckworth and Chapman were working on a Cosworth Formula 1 engine, Colin's dealings over the BRM H16 (and its 2-litre V8 little sister - or aunt) being based from the outset upon its use as a stopgap... In essence virtually all of Chapman's hopes for Team Lotus were invested in Keith Duckworth's talents, which Ford of Dagenham stepped forward to finance. Initially an alternative sponsor who was courted by Colin and his man, Andrew Ferguson, was Dan McDonald of BSR, the audio equipment company.

 

Here's part of the Wonkypaedic entry for 'Birmingham Sound Reproducers':

 

Daniel McLean McDonald founded Birmingham Sound Reproducers as a private company in 1932 in the West Midlands of England, UK. By 1947, the company chiefly manufactured communications sets (intercoms), laboratory test equipment, and sound recording and reproducing instruments, including phonographs.

In the early 1950s, Samuel Margolin began buying auto-changing turntables from BSR, using them as the basis of his Dansette record player.^[1] Over the next twenty years, Margolin manufactured more than a million of these players, and “Dansette” became a household word in Britain.

In 1957, BSR, also known by the name BSR McDonald, became a public company and, by 1961, had grown to employ 2,600 workers. In addition to manufacturing their own brand of player—the Monarch Automatic Record Changer that could select and play 7", 10" and 12" records at 33¹⁄₃, 45 or 78 rpm, changing automatically between the various settings of disc sizes only, speeds were changed Manually^[2]—BSR McDonald supplied turntables and autochangers to most of the world’s record player manufacturers, eventually gaining 87% of the market. By 1977, BSR’s various factories produced over 250,000 units a week.^[2]

Changing times and technology hit BSR hard in the early 1980s. Although BSR McDonald produced tape recording decks in addition to their widely used turntables and changers, consumers had begun to expect portability from their music players, and BSR were not prepared to compete with eight-track and cassette tape players or later, the groundbreaking Walkman from Japan. In the first five years of the 1980s, once-mighty BSR closed factories and made thousands of workers redundant.

During the 1980s BSR manufactured the Rotronics Wafadrive for the ZX Spectrum range of computers.

After producing their last turntable in 1985, BSR McDonald closed all divisions except for Astec Power Supply.

Unfortunately, a very familiar story of British industry through the late 20th Century...

DCN

[Ray Bell]

You're right, Doug, Blackie would definitely have been against it!

Remember that the Repco V8 was designed to fit in where a Climax FPF had been, so it could have been used in a slightly modified Lotus 33 and that would have made it an easy job for Jim to wipe the board had the Repco been as good as it had to be to do the job Jack wanted it to do.

Repco would have been at their wit's end trying to produce engines for them, too, remembering that they had to get the 2.5 version into play in Australia at the same time and had a hard time keeping up with that.

Myth busted.

[Glengavel]

Thank you Doug, Ray, I thought it sounded unlikely. From what I've heard, Repco took a bit of persuading to build the F1 engine, and the idea of working with a customer half-way round the world just doesn't wash.

 

On the subject of BSR - we had a Dansette many years ago, and then for some reason inherited another. Eventually they migrated to the loft where they lived for many years, and were still there when I moved away for fear of work. One time, when  realised they were becoming desirable, I asked my mum if she still had them. "Oh, I threw them out ages ago"...

[Charlieman]

Thank you Doug, Ray, I thought it sounded unlikely. From what I've heard, Repco took a bit of persuading to build the F1 engine, and the idea of working with a customer half-way round the world just doesn't wash.

As I recall from Mike Lawrence's book (Brabham Ralt Honda: the Ron Tauranac story), Repco F1 engine design and development was an international exercise already...

 

I wonder if anyone at Honda tried to introduce people at Brabham to the fax machine.

Edited by Charlieman, 17 January 2015 - 12:48.

[Vitesse2]

As I recall from Mike Lawrence's book (Brabham Ralt Honda: the Ron Tauranac story), Repco F1 engine design and development was an international exercise already...

 

I wonder if anyone at Honda tried to introduce people at Brabham to the fax machine.

I doubt even Honda had a fax in 1965-66. It was pretty much still experimental technology. Some time in the late 60s or early 70s the UK Met Office bought one to send charts from London Weather Centre to offshore oil and gas rigs. They spent hours trying without success - only to discover that the rigs' faxes were Group 1 and the one they'd bought was Group 2! A bit like trying to play a VHS tape on Betamax ...

[D-Type]

Wasn't FAX technology simply a high resolution version of what newspapers had used for years to 'wire' photographs?

[Roger Clark]

No possibility of Lotus having a Repco in 1966 but it might have been interesting if Chapman had persuaded BRM to develop their "customer" V12 earlier.  Tony Rudd said that it could have been ready for Monaco or Spa in 1966.

[Charlieman]

Wasn't FAX technology simply a high resolution version of what newspapers had used for years to 'wire' photographs?

Send me your triode, sexy babe.

[kayemod]

It seems to me that Lotus deciding to go with the BRM H16 was pretty much an act of desperation, which suggests that there were no better options. That engine with it's size, weight and complexity went against all of Colin Chapman's design principles, purely a stop-gap, and what a contrast with the elegant and compact DFV that Lotus were waiting for.

[Vitesse2]

The 'no better options' view seems to be on the money. This is from The Times, February 16th 1965 - the day the withdrawal of Climax was formally announced. Note especially the comment that Brabham were thinking of withdrawing!

 

 

However, it gets more interesting! If I ever knew this, I'd forgotten ...

 

 

(The Times May 21st 1965)

 

Like that was going to happen!

 

Nevertheless, from the issue dated July 10th ...

 

 

Perhaps it all burned up in the 'white heat of technology'?

[Mallory Dan]

Perhaps they hoped to approach Mr Brown after a good lunch... And find him somewhat more receptive than might otherwise have been the case.

[Vitesse2]

I think it took a little more than a good lunch for Mr Brown to get tired and emotional.

 

But the same thought had occurred to me, Dan!

[Ray Bell]

With regard to Repco's 'international' ambitions...

While it's undoubtedly true that Repco were seeing their F1 (and later Indy) engines as a good promotion for their intended expansion into international markets with automotive spare parts, they would have been keen to ensure that it was a successful venture so it worked out to the good.

Spreading their meagre (and distant) resources over two teams, one of which they'd had nothing to do with previously, would have been very much against the thoughts of the people in Melbourne.

They knew Jack and knew he could produce the results and that they could work closely with them, as 1966, '67 and '69 proved.

[Catalina Park]

Frank Hallam was reportedly upset that Jack Brabham wasn't trying to sell engines to customers in Europe like he was supposed to be doing. I think he mainly meant the larger capacity sports car engines but it may have applied to the 3 litre as well. 

[kayemod]

Given his looming problems with engine supply, it's hard to believe that Chapman didn't at least make initial enquiries about the possibility of a Lotus Repco?

[Catalina Park]

Given his looming problems with engine supply, it's hard to believe that Chapman didn't at least make initial enquiries about the possibility of a Lotus Repco?

He probably asked the UK agent who was keen on keeping the engines for himself. 

At the start of the season there was Ferrari, Maserati, Ford Indy, Climax V8 2 litre, BRM V8 2 litre (and more) and the Repco/Olds. 
The Repco was probably the weakest looking unit with a single cam per bank. It had no history and very little running time. Who would have thought?

[Ray Bell]

According to Don Halpin's book, Maybach to Holden - Repco: The cars, people & engines...

In April 1966 the second 3.0-litre engine was assembled after Repco virtually abandoned customer 2.5-litre engines for the time being. On May 1, Brabham and Hulme had Repco V8s for the first time together at Syracuse.

A shortage of viable V8s for the team meant that Hulme ran a Climax at Monaco, during the '66 season Brabham's team had the following engines:

E3 - rebuilt successively with three new blocks
E5 - rebuilt with one new block
E6 - rebuilt successively with two new blocks
E7 - rebuilt with one new block
E8

That means that five engines were doing the rounds between Europe and Australia during the year, seriously testing the Repco staff's resources. Brabham also had them build a 4.4-litre engine early in '66 which required further development time as it proved flexible in the liners and they had to be changed from dry to wet.

But staffing the operation was still going on. At least six new staff members began their association with the organisation in the early months of 1966 while growing pains would see the departure of Phil Irving in March '67 when Brabham sent John Judd to 'assist with the design of the new F1 engine' as they worked on new blocks and heads.

During all of this time the only 2.5-litre engine or engines to race were powering Brabham at Sandown and Longford in 1966. No local drivers were to get 2.5-litre Repco V8s until the Easter meeting at Bathurst in 1967 when just one, the Scuderia Veloce entry for Cusack, was entered.

But the Tasman Cup races of 1967 had seen Brabham run two races in New Zealand (Hulme only ran the Climax there) while both Brabham and Hulme ran V8s in all Australian races.

The first 4.4-litre engine had run during January in Bob Jane's Elfin, I suspect this is the one originally built for Brabham but which gave trouble in early dyno testing back in early '66.

The May Warwick Farm meeting saw both Harvey and Geoghegan Repco V8-powered to join Cusack and no more 2.5s were delivered that year.

Even the most optimistic person could see any prospect of Team Lotus going with Repco in F1 in '66 while Repco were struggling like this, though Jack did sell off some of his used F1 engines used in '66 because he was asking for the different head configuration for '67 to simplify installation and improve packaging.


.

Edited by Ray Bell, 18 January 2015 - 14:21.

[D-Type]

What was the connection between Repco and Coventry Climax?  I believe Repco had acquired rights to the FPF but not the Godiva.  Could they have produced a FPF-derived 3 litre four in parallel with the V8?

[Glengavel]

It seems to me that Lotus deciding to go with the BRM H16 was pretty much an act of desperation, which suggests that there were no better options. That engine with it's size, weight and complexity went against all of Colin Chapman's design principles, purely a stop-gap, and what a contrast with the elegant and compact DFV that Lotus were waiting for.

 

I suppose what with the BRM V8 being on a par with the Climax V8, there was no reason to doubt that the H16 wouldn't deliver the goods - until the day it turned up and 43 people were required to lift it from the van...

[Ray Bell]

Duncan, that would have been even more complicated than the V8 they built...

As for the BRM V8 vs the Climax V8 in the 3-litre formula, I'd have no doubt that the 2.2-litre BRM was better than the 2.0-litre Climax.

[Roger Clark]

According to Don Halpin's book, Maybach to Holden - Repco: The cars, people & engines...

In April 1966 the second 3.0-litre engine was assembled after Repco virtually abandoned customer 2.5-litre engines for the time being. On May 1, Brabham and Hulme had Repco V8s for the first time together at Syracuse.


.

This is the first suggestion I have heard that Hulme had a Repco at Syracuse. Is there other evidence?

[David Lawson]

Denis Jenkinson's Syracuse race report states that Hulme had the 2.7 litre Coventry-Climax in his Brabham.

 

David

[ray b]

never understood why nobody even tryed a turbo or supercharger in 66 on an older motor

I think a low stress 300hp was doable with a 1.5 v8 with about 1 bar boost using 66 off the shelf bits

maybe even passable with an 4 banger like a CC or  cosworth or even a production car's

the bmw 4 was being built by then

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by David Lawson
Denis Jenkinson's Syracuse race report states that Hulme had the 2.7 litre Coventry-Climax in his Brabham.

I'm guessing here that Preston has erred...

So it's even more unlikely that they'd have been able to supply Lotus, right?

[D-Type]

never understood why nobody even tryed a turbo or supercharger in 66 on an older motor

I think a low stress 300hp was doable with a 1.5 v8 with about 1 bar boost using 66 off the shelf bits

maybe even passable with an 4 banger like a CC or  cosworth or even a production car's

the bmw 4 was being built by then

I think the manufacturers were shy to try it with an engine burning straight petrol.  Supercharged racing engines in 1951 had used 'exotic' alcohol-based fuels.

As it was 15 years since the last supercharged racing engine, the required detailed engineering knowledge would be unfamiliar to the 1966 generation of engineers and mechanics.

The components of the 1.5 litre engines would have been designed for the stress levels of unsupercharged engines.  if supercharged, they might have run but the margin against a failure would have been eroded.  It may not have been physically possible to fit beefed up components in.

[kayemod]

I think the manufacturers were shy to try it with an engine burning straight petrol.  Supercharged racing engines in 1951 had used 'exotic' alcohol-based fuels.

As it was 15 years since the last supercharged racing engine, the required detailed engineering knowledge would be unfamiliar to the 1966 generation of engineers and mechanics.

The components of the 1.5 litre engines would have been designed for the stress levels of unsupercharged engines.  if supercharged, they might have run but the margin against a failure would have been eroded.  It may not have been physically possible to fit beefed up components in.

 

I think all that's true, but I suspect another deterring factor in 66 would be worries about the amount of fuel a 1.5litre supercharged engine would have to carry to finish a race, assuming the engine lasted that long, remember that mid-race refuelling was banned. Maybe not so much a lack of detailed engineering knowledge, as memories of the very thirsty 1.5litre Alfettas from the early 50s would still linger in the memories of some.

[Michael Ferner]

Don't waste your time and energy, Duncan and Rob - ray b has asked the exact same question in another thread a year ago, was given several good answers but is still none the wiser. Try listening, for a change?

[foxyracer]

I don't recall Team Lotus having been offered the Repco engine for 1966 - in fact I think that Jack Brabham who prompted the Repco V8 project would have had some pretty terse things to say about any such offer being made to his primary rival. BRM's people were very well aware that Duckworth and Chapman were working on a Cosworth Formula 1 engine, Colin's dealings over the BRM H16 (and its 2-litre V8 little sister - or aunt) being based from the outset upon its use as a stopgap... In essence virtually all of Chapman's hopes for Team Lotus were invested in Keith Duckworth's talents, which Ford of Dagenham stepped forward to finance. Initially an alternative sponsor who was courted by Colin and his man, Andrew Ferguson, was Dan McDonald of BSR, the audio equipment company.

 

Here's part of the Wonkypaedic entry for 'Birmingham Sound Reproducers':

 

Daniel McLean McDonald founded Birmingham Sound Reproducers as a private company in 1932 in the West Midlands of England, UK. By 1947, the company chiefly manufactured communications sets (intercoms), laboratory test equipment, and sound recording and reproducing instruments, including phonographs.

In the early 1950s, Samuel Margolin began buying auto-changing turntables from BSR, using them as the basis of his Dansette record player.^[1] Over the next twenty years, Margolin manufactured more than a million of these players, and “Dansette” became a household word in Britain.

In 1957, BSR, also known by the name BSR McDonald, became a public company and, by 1961, had grown to employ 2,600 workers. In addition to manufacturing their own brand of player—the Monarch Automatic Record Changer that could select and play 7", 10" and 12" records at 33¹⁄₃, 45 or 78 rpm, changing automatically between the various settings of disc sizes only, speeds were changed Manually^[2]—BSR McDonald supplied turntables and autochangers to most of the world’s record player manufacturers, eventually gaining 87% of the market. By 1977, BSR’s various factories produced over 250,000 units a week.^[2]

Changing times and technology hit BSR hard in the early 1980s. Although BSR McDonald produced tape recording decks in addition to their widely used turntables and changers, consumers had begun to expect portability from their music players, and BSR were not prepared to compete with eight-track and cassette tape players or later, the groundbreaking Walkman from Japan. In the first five years of the 1980s, once-mighty BSR closed factories and made thousands of workers redundant.

During the 1980s BSR manufactured the Rotronics Wafadrive for the ZX Spectrum range of computers.

After producing their last turntable in 1985, BSR McDonald closed all divisions except for Astec Power Supply.

Unfortunately, a very familiar story of British industry through the late 20th Century...

DCN

I spent most of my working life with one of the UK's largest retailers and my specialism as an electrical engineer was in electrical and electronic goods.  In the 1970s and early 80s we sold all sorts of products with BSR and Garrard turntables.  I didn't regard BSR terribly highly and chuckled one day when I asked one of their people what BSR stood for and the answer came back "Best Selling Rubbish".  I was completely unaware of the motor racing connection but I guess it never came to anything.

[zoff2005]

I was told by Claude Sage, (who was very close to Honda), that Honda built their 3 litre engine for Chapman, but that he probably just used it as a bargaining tool with Ford.

Marcus

[Doug Nye]

I can just imagine - indeed, I might be recalling a very blurred memory - someone suggesting to Colin that he should consider a fudged-up hot-rod engine based upon a production Yank tank V8 (from GM) at a time when one of Team Lotus's most enthusiastic, generous, well disposed and potentially greatest supporters was the Ford Motor Company.  He would simply have thought "...we'll leave that one to Black Jack, and wish him the best of luck with it..."

 

After a year or so, he might well have considered a Homer Simpson-style "Doh!!!".

 

DCN

[Alan Baker]

 remember that mid-race refuelling was banned.

No ban on refuelling in the mid sixties! Or for decades afterwards. Remember Gurney's stop for a top up at Spa '64 (none immediately available) and Rindt's splash and dash at Silverstone in '69. It was just that in those days a pit stop for any reason was considered an (almost) insuperable handicap. I imagine that Chapman's attitude to the Repco V-8 would have been akin to his views on Mike Hewland's "bunch of old mangle gears"!

[Roger Clark]

Although there wasn't a general ban on refuelling, some clubs did, I believe include a ban in the race regulations.  Also, the 1961-65 regulations said that all fuel fillers had to be covered by the bodywork.  I think that the 3-litre formula said that same. It was presumably changed at some time, but I don't know when.

[Alan Baker]

Although there wasn't a general ban on refuelling, some clubs did, I believe include a ban in the race regulations.  Also, the 1961-65 regulations said that all fuel fillers had to be covered by the bodywork.  I think that the 3-litre formula said that same. It was presumably changed at some time, but I don't know when.

Please let us not try to muddy history. In F1 Grand Prix racing there was no ban on refuelling during a race. The only liquid you were prohibited from topping up was oil.

[Roger Clark]

Please let us not try to muddy history. In F1 Grand Prix racing there was no ban on refuelling during a race. The only liquid you were prohibited from topping up was oil.

In what way am I muddyiing history? I did not say that there was a ban on refuelling; I explicitly said that there wasn't. I did say that some races included a ban. For evidence I would refer you to Denis Jenkinson's report of the 1967 German Grand Prix: "A new ruling forbidding refuelling during a race has crept into one or two Grand Prix races recently without anyone being told very clearly."

Apparently Tim Parnell was fined 200DM for adding fuel to Chris Irwin's car during the race.

.

[Ray Bell]

There were some new rules that came in with the '61 Formula One...

You could no longer top up the oil during the race, right? What about water?

[David Lawson]

It's strange if the regulations did call for bodywork covering the fuel fillers because quite frequently the Lotus 25 and 33 had exposed fillers on the scuttle so was this scrutineered consistently?

 

David

[Roger Clark]

There certainly was such a rule in 1961 - see pictures of Moss's Lotus 18 with tacked on covers over the fillers.  Whether the rule was repealed or not strictly enforced i couldn't say but most cars of the 61-65 period did not have visible fuel fillers.  

 

I have not heard of a rule that prevented water being taken on.

[Ray Bell]

Frankly, I think the rule said no fluids may be added...

But I'm only working from memory of a time when I was only reading what had come in in retrospect.

[David Lawson]

Just to correct my own post saying the Lotus 25 and 33 raced with exposed fuel fillers, having checked my various books in fact the 25 always had its fuel filler covered by the front bodywork but the 33 frequently had it exposed throughout 1964 and 1965 and then the first two years of the 3-litre formula so the rule was obviously changed or ignored by this team.

 

David

[Roger Clark]

It may, or may not, be of of interest that most 49s had the filler cap hidden under a hatch in the bodywork. The notable exception was R2, Jim Clark's usual car, were the cap was exposed.

[Glengavel]

It may, or may not, be of of interest that most 49s had the filler cap hidden under a hatch in the bodywork. The notable exception was R2, Jim Clark's usual car, were the cap was exposed.

 

Pity nobody at Monza thought to open it and slosh in a gallon or so of petrol! Hey ho.

[Roger Clark]

From Motoring News 23rd December 1965: "It seems that Colin Chapman is still trying to avoid using a BRM engine next season if he can avoid it.  Not so long ago he was at the Lamborghini works having a look at their V12 but they are not really interested in racing at this stage.  He is also believed to be playing with an Indianapolis Ford V8 in rather similar manner to Bruce McLaren."

[robjohn]

Returning briefly to supercharging: I noticed while looking through a book for something else that it was used in two engines run in non-championship F1 races in 1954-55.
DB, who made small single-seaters as well as their successful sports-cars, put supercharged 750cc Panhard engines in two cars for F1 racing. David Hodges, in his A-Z of Formula Racing Cars, said they developed only about 85bhp but the cars weighed just 350kg as against more than 600kg for most of the 2½-litre cars.
They weren't competitive, however, when they ran in the 1955 Pau GP.
The other project was by Giaur, which built F3 and Italian 750 formula cars (and sports-cars) with Fiat-based engines. The single 750cc s/c car ran in the 1954 Rome GP. I read elsewhere that it was "very small and compact compared to the usual Grand Prix cars", that it qualified ahead of three "worn-out" local Ferraris, but that it retired after five laps with engine trouble.
Neither project was good enough to have impressed a grand prix engineer in 1965-66, of course. Just a couple of small rivets worth counting.
After writing the above, I found that these engines and the possibility of others from established GP constructors were discussed in a TNF thread back in 2000. See:
http://forums.autosp...harged-f1-cars/
Rob B