98 replies to this topic

[WOT]

Okay, but even if you look at it from that angle, racing at Le Mans increases your risk of dying in a given year by 40%.  It's not like you can choose between racing at Le Mans and living an everyday life, every activity and its risks come in addition to living your everyday life.

 

I'm not saying that you shouldn't engage in any risky activities, I'm just saying that you shouldn't engage in sophistry to justify doing them.

 

Yeah, I'm certainly not disagreeing with you on the danger aspect, however these guys are racing drivers and it's what they love to do - PLUS they are good at it. There were far too many deaths in my era, but the drivers just enjoyed driving.

 

I say let them go for it - it's what they want to do...

[Jimisgod]

Why look only at deaths? If Alonso goes flying into the trees and breaks his arm or leg badly he could be out for months. Maybe he was unexpectedly leading the championship, so Honda have now lost a trophy. The manufacturers are in F1 to win and allowing their drivers to go and risk their bodies doing driving not in the contract is just bad business.

Webber managed to do something similar with a bicycle and was never quite the same after.

[adumbo]

Shame. I understand the blocking though. If I am investing mega bucks in my asset I will do the upmost to ensure all risk is removed. Alonso can get hurt while taking a bath but that is not the point. It is the most logical thing to do. We can argue about racing passionin multi series like the good old days but if anyone here were in Honda's shoes, they would do the exact same thing.

[BlinkyMcSquinty]

No matter the reasons, it was Honda who blocked Alonso's desire to race at LeMans for 2015. Which begs the question, is Alonso contracted to Honda instead of McLaren? We assume that any driver is contracted to the team, but there is nothing forbidding a driver being contracted to an engine supplier.

 

Maybe this explains the weird answers Alonso was giving out once it was revealed he was leaving Ferrari. Maybe this explains why Alonso still sports a beard, something very contrary to the Ron Dennis and McLaren way.

 

Assuming this is true, and knowing that Honda are lethally serious about not just competing but winning, they have one of the best drivers in their hip pocket. Alonso knows the clock is ticking, he doesn't have another five years to screw around with.  Honda are not going to wait five years for success, they want it ASAP. Thus both Alonso and Honda are on the same page.

 

Will Honda take their works status and Alonso to another team if the Honda-McLaren partnership does not produce results by end of 2016?

[muramasa]

I cant believe quite a few people seem to believe this unfounded story. I wouldnt believe story like this from AMuS, Speed week etc.

 

Looking back,

- Gill Simon left Honda in despair, sometime in June/July laste year >> denied by Arai (Honda's F1 project chief), who added that the contract with Simon had been extended and now he's in more integral role (also Simon later spotted in promo video by Mclaren couple months ago)

- Honda giving away 100mil Euro cash to Macca (AMuS) >> Arai categorically denies it

- rumor from Japan (speedweek) >> there is indeed such rumor in Japan, stemmed from the very article of speedweek

- Honda buying Macca stock >> denied by Mclaren v quickly

- Honda to use turbine by company that's related to Merc (speedweek) >> the company is IHI which supplied turbine to Honda in 80s (lol). Also Arai said at that time that turbine supplier hasnt been decided cos final PU config hasnt been finalized yet as which turbine to use depended on what config to adopt.

 

Also it's those media and journos who've been writing "Honda (not Mclaren, nor Mclaren Honda) wants Alonso, Honda wants top drivers, Honda thinks blah blah", but there's no such source/evidence either. Arai repeatedly saying management is on Mclaren side and regarding driver choice they were talking with Mclaren and would decide together.

 

Only thing they've got right is Simon joining Honda story after PURE project folded (by speedweek iirc), but that's more like he who shoots often hit the mark sometimes. Their track record has been poor to say the least.

[kosmos]

but there is nothing forbidding a driver being contracted to an engine supplier.

 

 

I think I read somewhere that by FIA rules, the drivers should be contracted by the team (FIA entry list).

[WOT]

If the current Formula One driver's contract specifically does not allow him/her to drive in any other formula - fair enough. 

 

But if that clause did not exist, and the possibility arose to race cross formula, in a very prestigious race, where the chance of winning was highly possible, and if I was told that I cannot compete simply because an engine supplier doesn't want me to, then I would be pissed off.

 

If I were a team owner, I don't know that I would necessarily want a pissed off driver in my camp.

 

Regardless, from me, this is all supposition. I have no idea of clauses in contracts, or who said yes or who said no, or if anyone said anything. As I said before, I would love to see F1 drivers being able to display there talents (or lack of it) in other categories.

 

Personally, I reckon if the possibility arose, and WEC teams could provide the cars, the whole of the F1 grid would jump at the chance of driving 24 Heures du Mans.

[CoolBreeze]

Stop treating them like babies. Friggin man up already. Honda should have just kept Alonso in their RnD centre and only release him for race weekends. 

[V8 Fireworks]

Would Porsche want Alonso to race in his Honda race suit anyway!!??

[Rurouni]

Whether the story true or not, why anyone is irritated because of this? I thought this whole thing is just plain common sense where a person can't promote 2 brands or more from the same category (unless they already make an agreement). Have you seen a person promoting Pepsi and Coca Cola at the same time? Working as the face of iPhone and showing up in high profile public event using Samsung Phone?
I'm pretty sure when you're contracted with either RBR, Ferrari, Merc, or McLaren Honda, there would be a clause where you need to do marketing work for them (and their sponsors).
Because of this, I don't think the story of Alonso going to WEC with Porsche got any ground unless the talk was happening when there was uncertainty on where Alonso would drive in 2015 (aka old news).
The bigger question is would Honda (or McLaren) allow Alonso to compete in Le Mans if Honda participate directly in there? Or they were more concerned about keeping their drivers safe?

Edit: I think it's okay to be irritated because you can't see Alonso at Le Mans when he got the opportunity to be there. What isn't okay is to start blaming Honda when all of this is just common sense.

Edited by Rurouni, 19 January 2015 - 08:56.

[Oho]

 

If I were a team owner, I don't know that I would necessarily want a pissed off driver in my camp.

 

 

Indeed had participation at Le Mans been non negotiable for Alonso, McLaren Honda would, the odds are good, have not signed him.

[bonjon1979a]

Surely it's because Honda don't want their star driver racing a rival manufacturers car. It's fairly obvious and makes perfect sense. They've spent a fortune coming back into F1 - they're unlikely to win the championship this year but Alonso could very well win Lemans in a Porsche and that's what all the stories would be about. Porsche, not Honda. I'd do exactly the same.

[Buttoneer]

I suppose whether this is fair or not depends upon what the contractual obligations are.  If Honda has stumped up some of the cash for Alonso believing that he will make heroic efforts to make their engines look good, then why shouldn't they get a say, especially if the cash is committed for the year.  If Alonso is unable to sit in the car for five races because of injury, maybe he still gets paid?

 

Nevertheless, I do think it's a great shame that we're not going to see it though.  If you listen to interviews with various ex-F1 drivers who move across to LMP's they all love the challenge and enjoy the camaraderie of working in a team.  Good David Brabham interview in 11 Dec Motor Sport magazine podcast which talks about this.

[BlinkyMcSquinty]

I think I read somewhere that by FIA rules, the drivers should be contracted by the team (FIA entry list).

I have scoured the 2015 Sporting Regulations many, many times, especially Appendix 2 and Articles 13 and 19. The only specific there is that the teams nominate the drivers. If you are aware of something within the Sporting Regulations, please educate me.

[kraduk]

Well,if the drivers themselves sign a contract that specifically forbids them from participating in other disciplines of sport...who is the big bad wolf there? I think teams are just protecting their considerable investment in the drivers they sign..reason why they molly coddle them these days.The unfortunate case with Jim Clark way back then and relatively recently and less tragically with Robert Kubica cements that standpoint really me thinks.

 

what investment would that be in this case? They could easily build in a clause that says if he misses a race he doesnt receive x % part of his remuneration..

[BlinkyMcSquinty]

I cant believe quite a few people seem to believe this unfounded story. I wouldnt believe story like this from AMuS, Speed week etc.

 

Looking back,

- Gill Simon left Honda in despair, sometime in June/July laste year >> denied by Arai (Honda's F1 project chief), who added that the contract with Simon had been extended and now he's in more integral role (also Simon later spotted in promo video by Mclaren couple months ago)

- Honda giving away 100mil Euro cash to Macca (AMuS) >> Arai categorically denies it

- rumor from Japan (speedweek) >> there is indeed such rumor in Japan, stemmed from the very article of speedweek

- Honda buying Macca stock >> denied by Mclaren v quickly

- Honda to use turbine by company that's related to Merc (speedweek) >> the company is IHI which supplied turbine to Honda in 80s (lol). Also Arai said at that time that turbine supplier hasnt been decided cos final PU config hasnt been finalized yet as which turbine to use depended on what config to adopt.

 

Also it's those media and journos who've been writing "Honda (not Mclaren, nor Mclaren Honda) wants Alonso, Honda wants top drivers, Honda thinks blah blah", but there's no such source/evidence either. Arai repeatedly saying management is on Mclaren side and regarding driver choice they were talking with Mclaren and would decide together.

 

Only thing they've got right is Simon joining Honda story after PURE project folded (by speedweek iirc), but that's more like he who shoots often hit the mark sometimes. Their track record has been poor to say the least.

Last year, McLaren did not have a major sponsor. So far this year, no change. But Dennis took back control of McLaren Technology Group (just renamed from McLaren Group Jan 13 http://www.mclaren.c...chnology-group/ ) in 2014 and it does not seem logical that Dennis could funnel away tens and tens of millions of dollars from Mclaren Automotive and McLaren Applied Technologies so casually. We are talking about somewhere around £160 million total cost of running the Formula One team, that money has to come from somewhere. Although KPMG, TAG, GSK, and the lesser MTC partners contribute their share, a major sponsor is still required. So where is that money coming from?

 

It is no wonder that IHI may be involved. They are a major industrial company with their shipyards, jet engines, countless other major tech companies and turbochargers, it is logical they may be involved.

 

[MNader]

It is understandable from all prospects. As the driver would be promoting a different brand, and it is risky as well (specially after the Kubica situation) and they would want their drivers focused on the program.

 

It is however still disappointing that F1 drivers are not allowed to do other races, credit to Vijay and FI for allowing Hulkenberg to go for it.

[muramasa]

Last year, McLaren did not have a major sponsor. So far this year, no change. But Dennis took back control of McLaren Technology Group (just renamed from McLaren Group Jan 13 http://www.mclaren.c...chnology-group/ ) in 2014 and it does not seem logical that Dennis could funnel away tens and tens of millions of dollars from Mclaren Automotive and McLaren Applied Technologies so casually. We are talking about somewhere around £160 million total cost of running the Formula One team, that money has to come from somewhere. Although KPMG, TAG, GSK, and the lesser MTC partners contribute their share, a major sponsor is still required. So where is that money coming from?

 

It is no wonder that IHI may be involved. They are a major industrial company with their shipyards, jet engines, countless other major tech companies and turbochargers, it is logical they may be involved.

 

it's about whether you believe what tabloids write or what official personnels say. Arai not only specifically mentioned about that very cash rumour but also denied in rather strong and decisive manner.

I thought such story as Honda just give away cash from even before '14 (not '15!) season started strange. Running an F1 team was too much for Honda (both cost-wise and operation-wise), that's why they had to withdraw in 08 and they're coming back and concentrate as engine supplier (this is what Honda said at comeback announcement), so why would they give away cash? Just unreasonable and doesnt fit. Mclaren was to be works teams for Honda and technical partner but still different company after all. I'd think it's highly possible if it's about Honda shouldering cost of 2015 car development, building communication system (that's between Japan and UK and circuit), driver salary from 15 etc quite a bit, which can amount to huge sums of money thus huge saving for Mclaren, combined with engine fee that'll be free of course. But just give away cash with no strings attached? Unlikely.

 

About IHI, maybe you dont know the article. How Speedweek wrote was to imply Honda sneaking Merc technology by forcibly associating Merc and Honda. According to the article, IHI used to set up a venture with Merc in Germany, so it went like "Honda to be supplied turbine by IHI, a Merc associated company?". (Arai refered to this rumor later as well and said that IHI was one of options but hadnt decided yet cos final config hadnt been decided.)

http://forums.autosp...28#entry6797892

Anyone who know a little about F1 as well as industrial matters know something like this well. What IHI is and history and involvement in motorsport as well as Honda is sort of common knowledge, just like what magneti marelli is, what honeywell is, etc etc.

So that article was nothing but utter embarrassment, irrespective of its intention (either deliberate or ignorance).

 

*sorry for going off topic

[hittheapex]

Arguments about safety and contracts aside, forgive me if this was already mentioned, but Honda are returning to Le Mans, and joining the WEC, for 2015 in the LMP2 class. I can understand their decision from a business point of view in that context.

Edited by hittheapex, 19 January 2015 - 15:10.

[BlinkyMcSquinty]

Honda engineers can design the turbo, but to construct some components such as the impeller and turbine requires requires someone like IHI who have the experience and expertise.

[muramasa]

Honda engineers can design the turbo, but to construct some components such as the impeller and turbine requires requires someone like IHI who have the experience and expertise.

seem you still dont get the point, which is puzzling. See the above post plus link, nothing to add to it really. The point is not about Honda collaborating IHI or whatever suppliers, but about the manner in which speedweek wrote (obviously they either intended to mislead/deceive readers or simply were pure ignorant). Remember that the original point i was making was about those media's credibility and past track record.

[FerrariV12]

I think what made it easier in the past would be, for instance Ferrari would have parallel F1 and sportscar programmes and a pool of contracted drivers that drove both, same with Matra in the late 60s/early 70s. Mercedes in the 50s, Porsche in the early 60s, etc. Plus of course there was a long period where the majority of the field used either the Climax or then the DFV, and even if one or two like Jackie Stewart had some sort of contract with Ford, the majority of drivers were only contracted in an F1 sense to their privately owned team using bought and paid for engines. The same situation that means Mercedes had little to no say over what Hulkenberg gets up to in June.

 

The closest thing we have to a parallel F1/LMP1 programme today is Renault, partly owned by Nissan, being in F1, with Nissan, partly owned by Renault, in LMP1. There isn't a Renault branded F1 team anymore, but for instance if Red Bull gave the OK for one of their drivers to race a Nissan at Le Mans, you wouldn't hear a peep from their works engine partner.

 

The only way I ever envisaged Alonso at Le Mans this year is if the McLaren deal hadn't happened and he'd taken an F1 sabbatical.

[R Soul]

I wonder if Honda would be okay with Alonso driving for one of the privateer teams who run Dallars or Lolas?

[Victor_RO]

I wonder if Honda would be okay with Alonso driving for one of the privateer teams who run Dallars or Lolas?

 

No such thing as Dallara or Lola LMP1 cars nowadays, Dallara haven't built a customer LMP1 car since 2003 (they have built tubs for Audi for a while up to 2012-ish) and Lola is bankrupt.

[Nathan]

"Not only to prove their diversity, they should be allowed to drive to keep developing and keep their status as the best drivers. Is there any top athlete that has so few opportunities to actually practice their expertise?"

If they are professional, probably near all of them????

[R Soul]

No such thing as Dallara or Lola LMP1 cars nowadays, Dallara haven't built a customer LMP1 car since 2003 (they have built tubs for Audi for a while up to 2012-ish) and Lola is bankrupt.

Perhaps it shows that I don't follow the WEC, but they were just examples. My point was that if there was a privateer team whose engine was also not made by a car manufacturer, Alonso could drive for them without competing against Honda in any way, even if he had to drive in a lower class.

[LORDBYRON]

Makes sense for Honda. Not too surprised at this But if I were Fred I'd be thinking bigger pay cheque to keep me here guys or I go.

[BlinkyMcSquinty]

seem you still dont get the point, which is puzzling. See the above post plus link, nothing to add to it really. The point is not about Honda collaborating IHI or whatever suppliers, but about the manner in which speedweek wrote (obviously they either intended to mislead/deceive readers or simply were pure ignorant). Remember that the original point i was making was about those media's credibility and past track record.

My apologies on the misunderstanding, you are correct.

 

I am very aware on how the media distort reality to suit their goals. A long time ago I was on the inside working for a professional team, and know that the general public perception of racing is at odds of the reality of what happens in the garages. Let's face it, there is not much going on right now, and they have to attract viewers. Print a story, any story, the more drama the better.

[RekF1]

Whether the story true or not, why anyone is irritated because of this? I thought this whole thing is just plain common sense where a person can't promote 2 brands or more from the same category (unless they already make an agreement). Have you seen a person promoting Pepsi and Coca Cola at the same time? Working as the face of iPhone and showing up in high profile public event using Samsung Phone?
I'm pretty sure when you're contracted with either RBR, Ferrari, Merc, or McLaren Honda, there would be a clause where you need to do marketing work for them (and their sponsors).
Because of this, I don't think the story of Alonso going to WEC with Porsche got any ground unless the talk was happening when there was uncertainty on where Alonso would drive in 2015 (aka old news).
The bigger question is would Honda (or McLaren) allow Alonso to compete in Le Mans if Honda participate directly in there? Or they were more concerned about keeping their drivers safe?

Edit: I think it's okay to be irritated because you can't see Alonso at Le Mans when he got the opportunity to be there. What isn't okay is to start blaming Honda when all of this is just common sense.

 

 

 

This is both off topic, and has bed language. soz mods

Edited by RekF1, 20 January 2015 - 13:27.

[anneomoly]

"Not only to prove their diversity, they should be allowed to drive to keep developing and keep their status as the best drivers. Is there any top athlete that has so few opportunities to actually practice their expertise?"

If they are professional, probably near all of them????

 

 

Well, probably not. F1 drivers are fairly weird in that they don't get to practice an awful lot at all. I'd definitely be surprised if Andy Murray only picks up a tennis racquet 20 weekends a year + testing days, or Mo Farah only runs 2 hours a week and spends the rest of it swimming and lifting weights...

 

Having said that, though, if I were Honda I'd be looking at the concussion and hospital stay Mark Webber picked up in Brazil and thinking that one race weekend of Alonso being medically unfit to drive could cost them places in the constructors championship at the end of the year (and also could cost them sponsor appearances in the meantime.)

[loki]

Completely agree. This era of wrapping F1 drivers up in cotton wool is absolutely pathetic.

 

If they're truly the best drivers in the world, they should be allowed to prove it with their diversity.

Tony Stewart was doing the same thing then injured himself in a bad sprint car wreck then had to sit out some races for the next season when he hit the kid.  It's a bad proposition for a sponsor.  Honda is spending a lot of money for his services and if he thinks the deal is too restrictive he can opt out and do something else.  He'll have plenty of time in his career to race sports cars after he retires from F1.

[loki]

what investment would that be in this case? They could easily build in a clause that says if he misses a race he doesnt receive x % part of his remuneration..

That signifiacntly impacts the rest of the program, chances at a constructor title and points etc.

[loki]

Makes sense for Honda. Not too surprised at this But if I were Fred I'd be thinking bigger pay cheque to keep me here guys or I go.

Where does he go?  No one else can afford him or offer him a solid car.  He can't make this kind of money racing in Europe and the only other place where there is that kind of money available racing cars is in NASCAR and he isn't going, likely wouldn't do well or be a fan favorite. 

[kosmos]

According to Marca, the only reason Fernando is not racing in LeMans and F1 at the same time is because FIA put the Koren GP in a weekend where the 6H of Spa-Francorchamps takes place (obligatory event if you want to race the 24h LeMans).  According to Marca, Fernando believes that this was a move done by FOM to avoid F1 drivers to race in the 24h race. I'm not sure how Hulkenberg fits in this theory.

 

http://www.marca.com...1430309185.html

Edited by kosmos, 29 April 2015 - 15:19.

[MikeV1987]

IIRC adding the Korean GP was an excuse to bring the calendar over 20 races, therefor letting the teams run 5 power units instead of 4 without penalty.

Edited by MikeV1987, 29 April 2015 - 16:21.

[SealTheDiffuser]

According to Marca, the only reason Fernando is not racing in LeMans and F1 at the same time is because FIA put the Koren GP in a weekend where the 6H of Spa-Francorchamps takes place (obligatory event if you want to race the 24h LeMans).  According to Marca, Fernando believes that this was a move done by FOM to avoid F1 drivers to race in the 24h race. I'm not sure how Hulkenberg fits in this theory.

 

http://www.marca.com...1430309185.html

 

sure

[Exb]

(obligatory event if you want to race the 24h LeMans).  
[

I'm not sure this is true - for example the Nissan LMP1 car is making its debut at LeMans and won't be racing at Spa.

[Victor_RO]

I'm not sure this is true - for example the Nissan LMP1 car is making its debut at LeMans and won't be racing at Spa.

 

It's not a mandatory event, but many teams are using it as a dress rehearsal. That's why Audi and Porsche are entering their third cars this year, Jota Sport is making the jump from ELMS to the WEC for this race and Le Mans, and AF Corse are running an extra car for one of their Le Mans line-ups.

[Revvolutions]

So does this prove that Honda pays Alonso salary?

[AustinF1]

I dunno if Honda pays his salary, but in this article, Ron states categorically that McLaren and Fernando both wanted the 3-year, no-escape-clause deal that they signed.

 

http://www.espn.co.u...says-ron-dennis

[KingTiger]

I assume the difference between the Hulk and Alonso is that Alonso is getting a huge salary from McLaren/Honda, while Hulk probably does not even get paid by Force India. 

[Brother Fox]

Porsche probably paid FI to let him go for the wekend. A rare case of everybody winning.

[jannyg]

Conflict of interests.

Imagine Alonso won a race with the Porsche.

You would get people saying Alonso can win in the Porsche but not a Honda. Honda need to up their game blah blah etc

[Brother Fox]

But Honda do need to up their game ...

[Afterburner]

But Honda do need to up their game ...

Don't let facts get in the way of a good marketing campaign.

[fridge46]

Don't let facts get in the way of a good marketing campaign.

 

Facts are meaningless. You can use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true!

[redreni]

X

 

or even worse, why would they risk their highly paid driver getting hurt in other series

 

I agree, it makes sense for the manufacturers in F1. Apart from anything else, Porsche may contend for outright victory at Le Mans, and if Alonso were to win the race and then get back in his Mclaren Honda and get knocked out in Q1 or Q2, it would only underline, from the man in the street's perspective, quite how badly Honda are still performing (albeit that it is early days and they are improving).

 

From the driver's perspective, he must either have grounds for optimism about Honda's F1 push, and therefore be keen to stay for the sake of working towards success in F1, or be motivated more by money than by sporting considerations. Otherwise he would say "well, I'm going to drive at Le Mans without permission then. What are you going to do about it?" If it's one or the other, I'd rather run at the sharp end for a single race at at Le Mans, than run at the blunt end in F1 for the next two or three years, by when it will be about time to retire.

[revmeister]

Like most athletes, Alonso will continue until he can no longer find the motivation to train and stay in shape for his sport. That's where the real work lies. Until then, F1 is who he is. The car will improve.

[BillBald]

Facts are meaningless. You can use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true!

 

It's pathetic how some people are so desperate to win an argument, that they bring facts into the discussion.