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Manor / Marussia 2015


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#2651 Vettelari

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Posted 27 December 2015 - 00:46

Is it crazy to think that with a budget near Sauber plus a better engine that they won't be battling with them in 2016? It is not like Sauber has had a fortune To develop their 2016 car either.

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#2652 LORDBYRON

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Posted 27 December 2015 - 10:08

I cant see that being a problem they have been developing what was there 2015 car into there 2016 car for just over a year so I cant see why with all the new partnerships they have with Williams and the likes they cant be a midfield team or at the very least be in and around teams like like Hass sauber Mcleren and the Renault works team if they get 7th or 8th in the constructors for a team that was nothing a mere year or so ago would be a pretty dam good achievement.  


Edited by LORDBYRON, 27 December 2015 - 10:13.


#2653 DutchQuicksilver

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Posted 27 December 2015 - 11:04

Good drivers make a big difference as well, with all respect to Stevens and Rossi. I mean, look at Ericsson, he was battling the McLaren drivers more often than not, in contrast to his teammate Nasr.

 

I really doubt Manor/Marussia will jump into the midfield next year. The Mercedes engine will give them maybe 2,0 seconds as most? The Williams rear end perhaps 0,5 seconds? They were already close to 6 seconds off the pace, so they'll get to 3,5 seconds at most then. Take into account that other teams will improve as well, they'll still be at the back.

 

Most they can hope for is beating the new Haas team.



#2654 Jonnycraig37

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Posted 27 December 2015 - 11:50

Good drivers make a big difference as well, with all respect to Stevens and Rossi. I mean, look at Ericsson, he was battling the McLaren drivers more often than not, in contrast to his teammate Nasr.

I really doubt Manor/Marussia will jump into the midfield next year. The Mercedes engine will give them maybe 2,0 seconds as most? The Williams rear end perhaps 0,5 seconds? They were already close to 6 seconds off the pace, so they'll get to 3,5 seconds at most then. Take into account that other teams will improve as well, they'll still be at the back.

Most they can hope for is beating the new Haas team.


You've missed the biggest issue that they had, namely a not very good 2014 chassis, cut and shut to meet 2015 regulations, and then comically undeveloped. You only needed to see one of the rare Manor onboards to see why they were so slow. The poor guys were sawing away at the wheel in every corner just to try and get it around the track.

#2655 LORDBYRON

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Posted 27 December 2015 - 13:03

Good drivers make a big difference as well, with all respect to Stevens and Rossi. I mean, look at Ericsson, he was battling the McLaren drivers more often than not, in contrast to his teammate Nasr.

 

I really doubt Manor/Marussia will jump into the midfield next year. The Mercedes engine will give them maybe 2,0 seconds as most? The Williams rear end perhaps 0,5 seconds? They were already close to 6 seconds off the pace, so they'll get to 3,5 seconds at most then. Take into account that other teams will improve as well, they'll still be at the back.

 

Most they can hope for is beating the new Haas team.

Shame they could never temp alonso he would surely give them the edge and a few more secs in total. In realty he would not be driving a worse car.


Edited by LORDBYRON, 27 December 2015 - 13:03.


#2656 FullThrottleF1

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Posted 27 December 2015 - 13:53

They have had a year to develop the chassis. They'll be closer, they were on the pace of Sauber and Lotus in 2014 with a properly developed chassis but dropped back when the funding started getting short.



#2657 Marklar

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Posted 27 December 2015 - 14:00

People are also forgetting that besides the massive gain from 2014 Ferrari engines to 2016 Mercedes engines you can also generate more downforce then. And then they also get the rear end from Williams and they will certainly have a better preparation than this year. They could challenge Sauber and Haas, depending on their developments.

#2658 pdac

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Posted 28 December 2015 - 00:36

I will be surprised (perhaps plesantly) if Manor are anything but plum last again next year. I really can't see them moving sufficiently further forward to make up the gap unless another team makes a very big backward step. Anyway, we shall see.



#2659 Nathan

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Posted 28 December 2015 - 14:23

I think Manor's success next year is dependent on how well, or how poorly, Haas and Sauber do.  The latter because members within the team have stated they are going for an evolutionary approach next year.  That can be a step forward, or a step backwards.  The advantage Sauber has IMO is their aero departments ability (and continuity) to do a good job out of the box.  Beyond understanding the new car and honing the setup, I don't see either Sauber or Manor being able to find much after launch.


Edited by Nathan, 28 December 2015 - 14:25.


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#2660 Jonnycraig37

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Posted 28 December 2015 - 16:12

I will be surprised (perhaps plesantly) if Manor are anything but plum last again next year. I really can't see them moving sufficiently further forward to make up the gap unless another team makes a very big backward step. Anyway, we shall see.


Well Toro Rosso will be running with a year old engine, and Renault running with a cut and shut chassis to fit the Renault into a Mercedes shaped gap.

#2661 pdac

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Posted 28 December 2015 - 17:57

Well Toro Rosso will be running with a year old engine, and Renault running with a cut and shut chassis to fit the Renault into a Mercedes shaped gap.

 

You could be right, but I just think there is such a big gap to close that the differences in power units can't possibly make a substantial change. For me, Haas is the only unknown quantity that might avoid Manor being the tail-enders.


Edited by pdac, 28 December 2015 - 17:58.


#2662 LORDBYRON

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Posted 28 December 2015 - 19:05

Well Toro Rosso will be running with a year old engine, and Renault running with a cut and shut chassis to fit the Renault into a Mercedes shaped gap.

You should do some research as there will be no cut and shut chassis any engine can go in any 2015/16 car



#2663 BRG

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Posted 28 December 2015 - 19:05

Renault running with a cut and shut chassis to fit the Renault into a Mercedes shaped gap.

I remember a team running with a cut and shut chassis to fit a Mercedes into a Honda shaped gap.

 

And that worked rather well IIRC.   ;)



#2664 Talisman

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Posted 28 December 2015 - 19:15

You should do some research as there will be no cut and shut chassis any engine can go in any 2015/16 car

Incorrect.

The engine mounting points may be the same but the cooling systems differ substantially from make to make and year to year and these are often incompatible.

Part of the reason Manor ran 2014 Ferrari engines was because they didn't have the time or funds to rework the 2014 chassis to accept the 2015 Ferrari engine. This was on top of Ferrari being unable to supply 2015 engines at such short notice and Manor not being able to afford them.

Lotus will be having to rework the 2016 chassis substantially to fit the Renault engine, they are unlikely to have had the time or resources to optimize the design around it. Cut and shut would indeed be a good description.

Edited by Talisman, 28 December 2015 - 19:16.


#2665 Nathan

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Posted 28 December 2015 - 19:38

Did Lotus not use Renault PUs in 2014?  I ponder if the word substantial is extreme.  It's pipework and side pods, I know that is simplified, but we are not talking radical design work.  The side pods are going to get revised every year regardless.  Renault demonstrated there were resources being put into the team prior to the buyout a couple of weeks ago.



#2666 Marklar

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Posted 28 December 2015 - 19:47

Didnt Lotus builed anyway two chassis? (One for the Merc engine, one for the Renault)

#2667 Talisman

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Posted 28 December 2015 - 20:38

Did Lotus not use Renault PUs in 2014? I ponder if the word substantial is extreme. It's pipework and side pods, I know that is simplified, but we are not talking radical design work. The side pods are going to get revised every year regardless. Renault demonstrated there were resources being put into the team prior to the buyout a couple of weeks ago.

With most manufacturers the PUs can develop enough during a season that cooling needs and therefore radiator sizes and locations can change substantially DURING a season like the Honda this year. One would hope that Renaults 2016 unit has actually moved on a bit from the 2014 unit and therefore would differ substantially, as I mentioned earlier Ferrari's 2014 and 2015 units require substantial chassis redesign to fit, something Manor couldn't do. I'm not sure therefore why you think that lotus having run Renaults 2 seasons ago is a substantial advantage?

Also I think you massively underestimate how difficult it is to accommodate differences in cooling needs and layout. The amount of work required to fit a Honda into the back of the mp4/29h should give you an idea, and that was a car that was never intended to be race competitive.

Given that genii effectively starved lotus of funds once Renault started sniffing around the team it would be miraculous if much substantial development had gone into the 2016 chassis especially considering they weren't sure for a long time whether they were running mercs or Renaults next year and it is doubtful Renault would pass Lotus technical details for their unit prior to inking the contract. These are owners that weren't willing to settle payments that actually threatened the existence of the team let alone prepare for the next season.

We are going massively off topic here. Manor made a good move in signing with Mercedes relatively early in the season leaving them enough time to maximise what they can get out of the combined unit given their meagre resources. Still I doubt they can catch sauber. Haas may be a different matter but who knows.

Edited by Talisman, 28 December 2015 - 20:40.


#2668 Jonnycraig37

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Posted 28 December 2015 - 22:19

Did Lotus not use Renault PUs in 2014? I ponder if the word substantial is extreme. It's pipework and side pods, I know that is simplified, but we are not talking radical design work. The side pods are going to get revised every year regardless. Renault demonstrated there were resources being put into the team prior to the buyout a couple of weeks ago.


The 2015 chassis was redesigned from scratch to optimise the new Merc PU. The fine tuned chassis based around a Merc PU for 2016 will have been very well advanced by the time Renault gave the green light to start planning for a Renault PU and it's far too late now to do anything other than shoehorn it in. As said the mounting points will be the same as they are spec, but everything else is going to be severely compromised. As we have seen in this era, it's not like where RB could sacrifice KERS cooling in return for tighter packaging, if you overheat the MGU, your race is over.

#2669 LORDBYRON

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Posted 28 December 2015 - 23:03

Didnt Lotus builed anyway two chassis? (One for the Merc engine, one for the Renault)

Only on paper have they done this 

 

Did Lotus not use Renault PUs in 2014?  I ponder if the word substantial is extreme.  It's pipework and side pods, I know that is simplified, but we are not talking radical design work.  The side pods are going to get revised every year regardless.  Renault demonstrated there were resources being put into the team prior to the buyout a couple of weeks ago.

yes regardless they are modded / upgraded every year so when they bolt in the Renault lump they should have good platform to build from, But it wont be just turn key operation they will likely wont be up to speed until the euro races  so teams like manor really need to come out the box ready and fighting 



#2670 Jonnycraig37

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Posted 29 December 2015 - 10:27

yes regardless they are modded / upgraded every year so when they bolt in the Renault lump they should have good platform to build from, But it wont be just turn key operation they will likely wont be up to speed until the euro races so teams like manor really need to come out the box ready and fighting


With all due respect, if you think they can 'upgrade' the chassis during the season, you're going to get a big shock.

So intrinsic is the chassis to the operation of the engine, that Hamilton was forced to retire in Singapore when a bit of engine trim shifted during the race.

A chassis designed for the requirements of a Merc PU, with an engine grinder taken to it to fit in a Renault is only goin to end one way - Palmer & Maldonado watching lots of races from the pitwall.

#2671 FullThrottleF1

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Posted 30 December 2015 - 15:23

Looking at the company history of Manor Grand Prix Racing it is interesting to note that a separate company called 'Just Racing' is affiliated with the organisation, the board of directors is the same as the Manor team. Could they be renamed 'Just racing' in 2016?



#2672 LORDBYRON

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Posted 30 December 2015 - 15:51

looks like its Manor Holdco Limited that owns the f1 team/licence as there the one with a shed load of debt where as Manor Motorsport Limited have little to no debt



#2673 KWSN - DSM

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Posted 30 December 2015 - 20:13

Just Racing would be a very poor choice were they to do so.

 

:cool:



#2674 Fastcake

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Posted 30 December 2015 - 21:52

Looking at Companies House, Just Racing Ltd is the company Stephen Fitzpatrick used to purchase Manor Grand Prix Ltd. I think it's just a holding company, not necessarily an indication of the new name.



#2675 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 30 December 2015 - 22:06

The difference will be on the results sheets little. On the track they will still be last or near last but competitivly so. Only 4 sec off the front pace instead of seven! And probably only lapped once instead of twice [or more]

 Sauber are a far more experienced team if not funded.

Haas are a better funded team so hopefully will be on the second or even maybe third last row on the grid!

The Renaults will probably be fighting them. 

Next year will be two races, the front third and then the rest.

Will Red Bull make the Renaults a bit more reliable? Or will they just continue to explode.



#2676 BRG

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Posted 31 December 2015 - 17:36

Just Racing would be a very poor choice were they to do so.

 

:cool:

Seems OK to me.  

 

Now if it was 'Just Making Up The Numbers' that would be a different matter.



#2677 Ragnar668

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Posted 01 January 2016 - 10:08

Verstappen just said in a Dutch interview that he doesn't expect Manor to be on par with Toro Rosso.

Wasn't to sure about Haas 



#2678 TheRacingElf

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Posted 01 January 2016 - 11:57

Verstappen just said in a Dutch interview that he doesn't expect Manor to be on par with Toro Rosso.

Wasn't to sure about Haas 

It such a shame that at Toro Rosso they have to talk about racing Manor and Haas instead of talking about a potential podium... Stupid 2015 engines :cry:



#2679 Anderis

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Posted 02 January 2016 - 23:02

It such a shame that at Toro Rosso they have to talk about racing Manor and Haas instead of talking about a potential podium... Stupid 2015 engines :cry:

Somehow I see this post as an overreaction.

 

Toro Rosso had only 2 seasons in their history in which they finished any single race inside top5. That's by far the worst record among current teams (barring Manor). They had some good races in 2015 but one should understand that their supposed place in pecking order, regardless of engine rules, is lower end of the midfield or even backmarker, depending on who the teams from lower end of the grid are.


Edited by Anderis, 02 January 2016 - 23:03.


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#2680 TheRacingElf

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Posted 02 January 2016 - 23:28

Somehow I see this post as an overreaction.

 

Toro Rosso had only 2 seasons in their history in which they finished any single race inside top5. That's by far the worst record among current teams (barring Manor). They had some good races in 2015 but one should understand that their supposed place in pecking order, regardless of engine rules, is lower end of the midfield or even backmarker, depending on who the teams from lower end of the grid are.

While this is off-topic I want to react to this. Toro Rosso indeed used to be a midfield Red Bull B-team who were supposed to be on the lower part of the grid, however Toro Rosso is in a place where they are building towards independence of Red Bull, the have moved into a bigger factory and hired loads of extra aero people. They are building a very solid team in order to move up the grid.



#2681 lustigson

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Posted 04 January 2016 - 11:13

Are there no clues whatsoever as to the name of Manor/Virgin/Marussia/Manor Marussia?



#2682 FullThrottleF1

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Posted 04 January 2016 - 11:47

Are there no clues whatsoever as to the name of Manor/Virgin/Marussia/Manor Marussia?

Not a sausage.



#2683 TennisUK

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Posted 04 January 2016 - 12:43

Not a sausage.


That is a crap name.

#2684 FullThrottleF1

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Posted 04 January 2016 - 14:34

:rotfl:  :rotfl:  :rotfl:

 

Reminds me of this debacle:

 

m_3990001_20.03.11_%20194.jpg



#2685 BullHead

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Posted 05 January 2016 - 13:23

Heh. "Not a sausage". Who are they trying to convince?

#2686 billm99uk

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Posted 05 January 2016 - 13:30

Better a sausage than a lemon :p



#2687 MattPete

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Posted 05 January 2016 - 16:20

Not a sausage.

 

Snausage?



#2688 KWSN - DSM

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Posted 05 January 2016 - 16:38

Snausage?

 

Saucisse?

 

:cool:



#2689 LORDBYRON

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Posted 08 January 2016 - 22:41

 Mercedes Engines, Possible Pascal Wehrlein driving…now all we need is Ross Brawn as team boss :) 

 


#2690 AustinF1

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Posted 09 January 2016 - 11:06

You mean Ross Brown?