179 replies to this topic

[Requiem84]

The latter. See the tech analysis of autosport (paywall).

[STRFerrari4Ever]

One has to wonder where this car would be with a Merc lump in the back. I'd say ahead of Williams.

[TomNokoe]

Agreed. Great chassis. Gorgeous car, too.

[CurbPainter]

One has to wonder where this car would be with a Merc lump in the back. I'd say ahead of Williams.

 

Yeah, and if the drivers would be more experienced and getting everything out of the car, they might be even a direct threat to Ferrari...the designers of TR have really outdone themselves to the looks of it...I'm thoroughly surprised by how well deigned the car actually is...I can remember pre-season thinking, "if the cars would just be at the grid places 15 and 16, but with a small enough difference to the cars at places 11-14 because of the BHP deficit, it will be good enough for the youngsters"...but up until now, they had only just 2 tracks (Bahrain and Canada) not working out for them of the 8 tracks so far, but at the rest they have been highly competitive for places 6-10, which is very good looking at how much BHP they are missing.

[A3]

So I have seen some articles pop up here and there saying TR will test it's biggest season upgrade of the year during testing today and tomorrow in Austria .

 

Does that mean they will also be testing new parts that have not been used yet and we might see some new big upgrades for the races soon or are these all updates that were installed previous to the race in Spielberg already? 

 

It looks like Silverstone could be another strong weekend for them.

 

http://www.formula1....suspension.html

[Kao18]

http://www.formula1....suspension.html

 

Thanks for that. This update might actually have given them that little bit extra in Austria and perhaps even more in Silverstone. 

 

Agreed. Great chassis. Gorgeous car, too.

 

True.Together with Lotus and Williams the best looking car for me.

 

Really hope they can get a decent engine for next year.

[TheRacingElf]

What do you guys think, will James Key stay at Toro Rosso for next year or will they move him up to Red Bull?

[CurbPainter]

What do you guys think, will dieter mateschitz stay at Toro Rosso for next year or will they move him up to Red Bull?

 

I don't know how the team Toro Rosso/team Red Bull agreements actually are. As far as I know, Toro Rosso is an independent team on the one side, but the drivers are all one team, Red Bull. But to make it even more complicated, both teams have the same owner, so how independent are they exactly...?

 

Red Bull of course could just buy James Key away form Toro Rosso, but you would be screwing your "friend." The drivers simply belong to Red Bull and Red Bull can do with them whatever they want, however if that would be the case with other personnel, "I have no idea," it will probably depend on how the agreements are...you will always have the same owner who can decide whatever he wants, but agreements just could have been made in the past to let the teams operate totally independent and rookies to be stalled at the junior team in return for Red Bull sponsoring (no matter if they have the same owner)...so we first need those know how those agreements are.

 

It will also depend on how much faith they will have in Red Bull chassis design team as it is now. The RB11 isn't strong this season, and particular lacks being strong at some points, but they might be building next year a better chassis again. Is the STR10 actually that much better as the RB11, I would say no, but the STR10 is at least strong in high/mid speed corners. If the Red Bull team would design again a car which has also strengths for next season, will they be gaining much by taking James Key away from Toro Rosso, I don't know. It will probably come down to on how much faith they have in their design team.

[Gilles4Ever]

Tobias Grüner F1 @tgruener

#F1 Slimmest rear wing spotted so far at Toro Rosso. Looks like Monza spec. More tech pics later in our AMuS gallery.

[Gilles4Ever]

Tobias Grüner F1 @tgruener

#F1 That new upper frontwing flap on the Toro Rosso is the skinniest I have ever seen. #AMuS

 

 

I think they running low downforce  

[STRFerrari4Ever]

Just a touch.

That compensation for their lack of power is crazy, I'm expecting some pain in these next 2 races.

[Requiem84]

Today started of amazingly well.

Verstappen touched 341 at Kemmel. About 10 km/h faster than the Mercs. Theyre running crazy low df, and still manage in S2.

Edited by Requiem84, 21 August 2015 - 10:55.

[oetzi]

Is it possible the Renault has a little bit more grunt than people think, and that both RB cars have very high downforce in standard setup?

[Requiem84]

One would almost come to that conclusion...

Renault indicated tgat they worked hard on preparing for Spa. Perhaps as reliability is now good, they are maximizing the engine more as well?

It is quite remarkable anyway.

Also, last year TR and RB did 32.4 in S1. This year I they did 31.4-31.7. That's about a gain of a 1 second on a straight. Seems Renault is uppong the game a bit, as TR/RB last year also ran litte df...

[FPV GTHO]

Tracks like Spa and Monza, that feature long stretches of open throttle, will be very reliant on the MGU-H for engine performance. Just look at Honda's struggles with their revolutionary turbo. Now Renaults problems IMO have always been related to the ICE. I wouldn't be surprised if Renaults MGU-H is pretty strong.

[Henri Greuter]

Think that by now Toro Rosso must accept that they need too many lucky breaks for them and too many unlucky breaks for either  Force India or Lotus to gain 6th in the constructors championship. By nowe it is just a matter of trying to hold off Sauber and McLaren to keep 7th. Given the difference in PU performance between Mercedes and Renault this appears to be the maximum. And if they achieve that, they've done admirably in my eyes.

 

 

Henri

[A3]

I was actually amazed by TR's pace at Spa, I feared they would do much worse. The reliability seems the biggest issue, not their PU performance.

[SenorSjon]

They removed a lot of downforce to get there. I wonder what the TR is capable off with a Ferrari or Mercedes engine.

[Kao18]

http://thejudge13.co...ngine-for-2016/

 

So if true where does that leave Toro Rosso for 2016? Will they also be using the 'Infiniti' engine or the 2015 Ferrari engine after all?

 

If they remain part of Red Bull is there really a reason to switch to Ferrari engines?

 

If they can get the extra BHP and reliability I would lean towards Infiniti.

[Kao18]

Not sure how reliable it is but according to this article Toro Rosso is close to signing a three year deal with Ferrari with possibility for 2016 spec engines midway through the season:

 

http://www.thesportr...urn-to-renault/

[Requiem84]

Would be extremely interesting to see whether that gives TR the upperhand on RB... 

 

I think the current estimations are that the 2015 Ferrari engine is about 50-60 HP more powerful than the 2015 Renault. Would be hard for Renault to catch up that much in the winter, I presume. 

[Kao18]

Reading that for me it would explain why both drivers are happy to stay and confident for 2016. 

 

In case TR would get the upper hand I guess Red Bull could always make a swap and name RBR their junior team 

[Marklar]

Adam Cooper ‏@adamcooperF1 2 Min.Vor 2 Minuten

FIA also confirms that Ferrari will supply a 2015 engine to a fourth team in 2016 - in other words, @ToroRossoSpy...

[Cloxxki]

So 3 Ferrari powered teams will have an edge over TR in terms of power (2016 vs 2015 spec), and 4 Mercedes powered teams. RedBull, Enstone and McLaren being uncertain as they get PU's redesigned much as possible to be more like the former.
I am not so sure we won't see TR at the bottom of tthe speed trap figures... reliability may well be best of the grid, but without the very best software and petrol, is this even a significant step up in power from the 2015 Renault, let alone relative to other teams that ALL get a season upgrade? 
TR are going to need a better chassis than they had I'm afraid. At times there was nearly a second lost on RedBull. this will need to be severed. The pitstops of late were at times ultra-quick. Impressive in-season improvement. But was it perhaps at the cost of some brake performance compromizes?

[Peter0Scandlyn]

Why do they want to go into season 2016 crippled?

[statman]

According to Brundle, the '15 Ferrari has about + 85 HP on the Renault. Somebody in another thread said that next years engines won't have a lot more HP, maybe 20 more. Not sure what that's based on.

 

If they can design another superior chassis, it won't be that bad. The new engine certainly helps in terms of reliability.

 

Plus there is some rumor that they will get the '16 upgrade during the year, but that's just rumor at the moment

[Exb]

How does it work with regards to the 4 token upgrade Ferrari never ran (but presumably 'homologated' prior to the end of this season)? I would also assume that upgrade will be on next years 2015 engine for Toro Rosso, and if so I hope it is something that works/improves the engine and not just a change which allows further developments on the 2016 engine for Ferrari.

[YoungGun]

It should be, from what I remember the final update was to make the engine block more narrow,  helping to make for a more stream-lined rear of the car and deliver better aerodynamics.

[Cloxxki]

Mercedes and Ferrari may not improve much more than 20bhp perhaps, but Renault and Honda are still to do big overhauls to get on board with the Mercedes-like design philosophy.
The 2015 Ferrari might in 2016 look like the 2014 did this year, to a lesser degree only. Keep in mind 2015 Renaults were a good bit quicker than 2014 Ferraris. I did not look for 2014 dated speedtrap figures, though.
If the 2015 Ferrari is to be homologated at a year-end or better specification, not all may be lost. Otherwise, don't be surprised if STR really have the slowest straight line speed next year. Manor Mercedes, Sauber 2016 Ferrari, just one or two Renault teams, and one Honda team. So realisticially only 4-6 cars will be slower next year anyway. Show me the competitive progress.

[Sarkis]

Mercedes and Ferrari may not improve much more than 20bhp perhaps, but Renault and Honda are still to do big overhauls to get on board with the Mercedes-like design philosophy.
The 2015 Ferrari might in 2016 look like the 2014 did this year, to a lesser degree only. Keep in mind 2015 Renaults were a good bit quicker than 2014 Ferraris. I did not look for 2014 dated speedtrap figures, though.
If the 2015 Ferrari is to be homologated at a year-end or better specification, not all may be lost. Otherwise, don't be surprised if STR really have the slowest straight line speed next year. Manor Mercedes, Sauber 2016 Ferrari, just one or two Renault teams, and one Honda team. So realisticially only 4-6 cars will be slower next year anyway. Show me the competitive progress.

 

I'm a little more optimistic than that, personally.

 

The Ferrari was overall a good engine this year, clearly a step above Honda and Renault. If it wasn't quite at the Mercedes level, it was a reasonably small gap by the end of the year. (My impression is the large majority of the Mercedes advantage lies elsewhere) Comparing the 2014 engine was rather bad (arguably worse than Renault), and Ferrari took a major step forward this year. Renault for example has yet to show this kind of ability. They might surprise us like Ferrari did this year, but I don't really have a lot of faith in Renault.

 

Aside from that, engine development will slow down as the engine formula matures; it will get harder to make major gains as time goes on.

 

Overall I expect the 2015 (final spec) Ferrari engines to be more competitive than the 2015 Renaults this year. (Just like I think a 2014 Mercedes engine would have been better than a 2015 Renault)

 

Looking at the rest of the teams, the way I see it:

• Mercedes and Ferrari will obviously be stronger, barring any completely unforseen collapse.
• Williams have the Mercedes engine and built solid if unspectacular chassis the past two seasons. Likely will be ahead, but TR could be closer at times if the 2015 Ferrari is as competitive as I'd expect it to be.
• Red Bull we might know more about tomorrow. Looks like RBR given their resources will likely have the better chassis, but hard to tell what their PSU will be. If it's stock Renaults, I expect STR to have an edge in that area, and the teams could be rather competitive.
• Force India could be fairly close, if the engine is reasonably competitive. 
• Lotus/Renault had a worse chassis, don't seem to have a lot of money to develop for next year, and will likely have a worse engine. Expecting a drop further down the grid for them.
• Sauber will have a bit of a power advantage which will likely increase as the season goes on. Haven't built particularly good chassis in several seasons, expect them to be behind still.
• McLaren are a bit hard to place, a lot hinges on Honda. Should be a bit further up in the midfield, but haven't exactly built fantastic cars in the last few seasons either. Could go either way.
• Manor will be better, but I expect them more around Sauber levels of this year; a so so chassis with a nice engine in the back.
• Haas is impossible to tell. Could be Jordan, could be BAR...

Overall assuming James Key designs another good chassis, I'd envision a pretty competitive team regularly fighting for the points, ideally a bit less of a sitting duck on the straight and with less reliability issues.

Edited by Sarkis, 03 December 2015 - 19:52.