28 replies to this topic

[Derwent Motorsport]

My main memory of the original Silverstone Classics was the race with a big field of Cam Ams and including the "works" McLarens and John Whitmore etc. The noise they made when they set off made the stand shake. There does not seem to be races like that now. Any idea why?

[zoff2005]

There is a "Can Am" series run for the last 3 years or so by Peter Schleifer from Germany, sometimes in conjunction with Masters. It is called "Can Am Challenge Cup". The older Can Am cars, like my M1B, run at Goodwood (Whitsun Trophy) and the Members' Meetings, and on 4 occasions each year in the HSCC Guards Trophy, plus Masters WSM (but mixed up with Lola T70 Coupes and others running much stickier tyres). I think you are referring to the old Orwell series, which seems to have been replaced by Schleifer's new series.

Marcus

[Peter Morley]

The ability of a big Can-Am car to shake the ground is really impressive and hard to imagine until you've experienced it.

 

As you say there don't appear to be many races for the later cars like the McLaren M8s these days.

The earlier ones like M6s have quite a lot of races alongside Lola T70s etc.

For that reason the later cars can be relatively cheap at the moment...

 

The change in cut off date seems to have been favourable for Lola T70s which can now win historic races which they didn't before.

Consequently their prices have increased massively.

 

I've suggested to several people that they would be better off in the long run buying an M8 than an M6, looking to see what's for sale at the moment (= very little) suggests I'm not the only one who thinks so!

[Duc-Man]

There are a number of reasons:

a) Some drivers/owners stoped racing those cars because they became to old to physically deal with the stress (driver) or to precious and valuable (car).

b) The cars get more expensive to run every year.

c) Some cars changed hand from a racer to a collector who has it locked away somewhere in a garage because he sees it as an investment.

d) Some cars got sold to overseas.

e) The costs for holding an event go up every year as well.

f) Some cars got wrecked and disappear for some time until they're rebuild like John Grant's McLaren M8. The ex-Jost Kalisch BRM is AFAIK still sitting somewhere waiting to be rebuild.

g) The world economy crissis did its part as well.

[Emery0323]

I take it this is a statement about British or European events?

 

Races for any Can-Am cars up through 1974 have been regular features at the big US events, like Monterey and Road America:

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=9EagOLQRKw4

[Duc-Man]

I take it this is a statement about British or European events?

 

Races for any Can-Am cars up through 1974 have been regular features at the big US events, like Monterey and Road America:

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=9EagOLQRKw4

Yes we talk about european events.

This is the entry list of the Oldtimer GP at the Nürburgring 1990:

And 1991:

 

 

And how it looked on the track:

 

I haven't seen a Lola T70 of any version or a McLaren M1 racing in Germany in years.    I wish the good old days would come back.

Edited by Duc-Man, 23 January 2015 - 17:16.

[Dick Dastardly]

I remember 1 or 2 races in the early noughties.....1 at Thruxton [IIRC the March 717 won], the other at Donington [Martin Donnelly was competing, he spun the McLaren opposite the pits, can't remember who won].

I would like to see the big bangers back out.....posted on the Croft Nostalgia thread last year that I wonder why there are no big bangers either sports/GT cars or single-seaters [F5000]...after all, both categories raced at Croft in their heyday [maybe F5000 in Libre races rather than an F5000 championship round]. Also would like to see them out at Oulton Park at their Gold cup meeting..

[Alan Cox]

As mentioned in the first post of this thread, Can-Am cars did feature at the early Christie's Festivals, mixed in with some quick 2-litre cars. The Can-Am cars were well-catered for in Europe by Steigenberger Hotels who ran a series in the late '80s and early '90s for a number of years. Earlier in the UK we had the HSCC Foulston-sponsored Atlantic Computers/Failsafe series which brought out quite a number of the big bangers but it faded away when owners preferred to run their cars in Europe due, in part I believe, to tougher silencing regulations which were becoming the norm in the UK. The Steigenberger series was then taken over by Charlie Agg (of Trojan) which continued to run successfully and was later taken on by Geoff Hobbs. I think there was quite a bit of politics involved and a German Supersports series split off and it never regained its popularity.

 

I think Duc-Man puts forward a number of valid reasons why we don't se these fabulous cars on a regular basis any more, which is a great shame. I remember we saw some big-name drivers taking part in the Christie's races, such as Sir John Whitmore (as previously mentioned), Denny Hulme, Brian Redman, Dieter Quester etc

 

Hats of to those who still campaign these cars in the races that Marcus Mussa (zoff2005) mentions in his post.

[wolf sun]

The German series is indeed the Orwell Supersports Cup which still exists, as far as I know (John Burton of Chevron fame used to compete in it). Years ago I conducted an interview with Silvio Kalb (series organiser and competitor). I remember him talking about series for similar cars run concurrently, such as the Masters', and there seemed to be quite a rift between the two - effectively reducing fields in either series.

I'll see if I can find my transcript somewhere, but our talk about the historic racing scene might have been off the record.

[RA Historian]

While the fields may be bigger in the US, more and more of the cars being raced are replicas. The originals are too fragile, too valuable, and too dangerous to be raced seriously, although some do just that. I remember the 1996 30 year event at Road America. David Hobbs drove a former Carl Haas Lola T-163. After the event he announced that  the idea of driving a (then) 30 year old car with an engine putting out far more horsepower than in period, with his protection being just low aluminum tub sills was nothing that he wanted to do again.

 

There is a small cottage industry in the US of people building replicas of McLaren and Lola Can Am cars. While one or two are up front and honest about what they are doing, it is my observation that the majority pawn these new cars off as the real thing. Caveat emptor indeed.

 

Two years ago there was a Lola T-70 reunion at Road America. Some 22 examples showed up, some for display, but most went out on the track. Of these 22, seven had a legitimate claim to being authentic, two were continuations, and the rest were copies, most of which claimed (falsely) that they were the real thing. There is a LOT of chicanery going on these days....

 

But to get back to the subject, a decent number of real Can Am cars have been withdrawn from any competition because they are too valuable to race. Hence, they have two types of owners. One is the enthusiast who prizes the car for what it is and derives enjoyment from owning such a jewel. The other is the 'flipper' who buys it with the idea of selling it for a profit at next year's auction.

 

A number of owners of the real thing have told me that they have no appetite for racing such an expensive item, especially when they are up against a field of replicas which have stronger tubs, suspensions, and bigger engines than back in the day. Not to mention the driving skill level of what are, after all, essentially amateurs.

 

Tom

[pete53]

The last time I saw Can-Am cars in this country was at a Brands Superprix meeting a few years back. I was standing at the start of Pligrims Drop. Yes they were noisy, but what struck me was the incredible acceleration. I suppose you would expect that with 8 litres to play with, but they way they rocketed away once on the straight was memorable and quite phenomenal.

[kayemod]

While the fields may be bigger in the US, more and more of the cars being raced are replicas. The originals are too fragile, too valuable, and too dangerous to be raced seriously, although some do just that. I remember the 1996 30 year event at Road America. David Hobbs drove a former Carl Haas Lola T-163. After the event he announced that  the idea of driving a (then) 30 year old car with an engine putting out far more horsepower than in period, with his protection being just low aluminum tub sills was nothing that he wanted to do again.

 

Tom

 

 

Hobbo's safety concerns are quite understandable, driver safety wasn't that great a factor in car design & construction back in the 60s & 70s, but surely Can-Am racing in North America had a pretty good safety record, quite remarkably so when you consider the cars, the tracks they raced on, and the number of non-professional drivers involved. There were crashes and a few bad injuries of course, but from memory I can't think of any fatalities, quite a contrast with F1 in the same era.

Edited by kayemod, 24 January 2015 - 18:08.

[PCC]

Hobbo's safety concerns are quite understandable, driver safety wasn't that great a factor in car design & construction back in the 60s & 70s, but surely Can-Am racing in North America had a pretty good safety record, quite remarkably so when you consider the cars, the tracks they raced on, and the number of non-professional drivers involved. There were crashes and a few bad injuries of course, but from memory I can't think of any fatalities, quite a contrast with F1 in the same era.

Dick brown was killed at Mosport in 1970, just a couple of weeks after Bruce McLaren died in the M8D at Goodwood.

[kayemod]

Dick brown was killed at Mosport in 1970, just a couple of weeks after Bruce McLaren died in the M8D at Goodwood.

 

I knew that someone with a better memory than mine would correct me, but still relatively safe compared to other forms of racing at the time. Since poor Bruce was testing, not quite the same as racing, but I'm sure that a large number on TNF can remember what they were doing when they heard the news. Still a student, I was on a 73 bus in London travelling to Kings Cross, when I saw an Evening Standard placard "Bruce McLaren killed". I don't think anything could have caused a bigger shock, I'd met Bruce only a few weeks earlier.

[PCC]

I knew that someone with a better memory than mine would correct me, but still relatively safe compared to other forms of racing at the time. Since poor Bruce was testing, not quite the same as racing, but I'm sure that a large number on TNF can remember what they were doing when they heard the news. Still a student, I was on a 73 bus in London travelling to Kings Cross, when I saw an Evening Standard placard "Bruce McLaren killed". I don't think anything could have caused a bigger shock, I'd met Bruce only a few weeks earlier.

I had just come home from school for lunch, and my grandmother greeted me with the words "Bruce McLaren was killed...". I was seven years old, and I'd never experienced a shock like that before in my life. I had gotten his autograph the year before at the Mosport Can-Am and seen him race at the Canadian GP later that summer. I was - and still am - deeply impressed by how someone I viewed as a hero could be so nice to a little kid.

 

When the Can-Am came to Mosport in 1970, the mood was still quite subdued. I remember my dad, who was the main track announcer, asked about bringing Denny up to the tower for an interview . "No problem, as long as you don't ask about Bruce" was the reply.

 

Dick Brown died on the Saturday. His car left the back straight at the crest of a hill. I don't recall why, maybe it was part of the chronic issue Group 7 cars had trying to keep the front end planted on the ground. I remember seeing the ambulance pulling up to the medical room in the tower, and nobody saying much except that it was 'bad.' The following day before the race, we had a minute of silence in honour of Bruce McLaren and Dick Brown.

 

I have many fond memories of the Can-Am; they are still the most thrilling cars I was ever lucky enough to see and you're right, their safety record was excellent by the standards of the day. But June 1970 was hard.

Edited by PCC, 24 January 2015 - 20:08.

[Tim Murray]

I remember reading somewhere that poor Denny Hulme was waiting for a train at a London underground station, in great pain from his Indianapolis burns, when he saw the newspaper placard about Bruce. That must have been very hard to take.

[kayemod]

 

Dick Brown died on the Saturday. His car left the back straight at the crest of a hill. I don't recall why, maybe it was part of the chronic issue Group 7 cars had trying to keep the front end planted on the ground. I remember seeing the ambulance pulling up to the medical room in the tower, and nobody saying much except that it was 'bad.' The following day before the race, we had a minute of silence in honour of Bruce McLaren and Dick Brown.

 

 

According to Pete Lyons at the time, privateer Dick hit an oil patch at the crest on the main straight and veered off at a point with no guard rails, Can-Am's first race fatality.

[Bob Riebe]

Stan Burnett died testing his newest design which was similar in appearence to the newest m8.

[Supersox]

I knew that someone with a better memory than mine would correct me, but still relatively safe compared to other forms of racing at the time. Since poor Bruce was testing, not quite the same as racing, but I'm sure that a large number on TNF can remember what they were doing when they heard the news. Still a student, I was on a 73 bus in London travelling to Kings Cross, when I saw an Evening Standard placard "Bruce McLaren killed". I don't think anything could have caused a bigger shock, I'd met Bruce only a few weeks earlier.

The Evening Standard placard I saw was outside Marble Arch tube sation-it was the day before my birthday and I was with my mother taking her to Paddington to get a train home to Somerset.

After all these years the memory is clear as day.

[63Corvette]

While the fields may be bigger in the US, more and more of the cars being raced are replicas. The originals are too fragile, too valuable, and too dangerous to be raced seriously, although some do just that. I remember the 1996 30 year event at Road America. David Hobbs drove a former Carl Haas Lola T-163. After the event he announced that  the idea of driving a (then) 30 year old car with an engine putting out far more horsepower than in period, with his protection being just low aluminum tub sills was nothing that he wanted to do again.

 

There is a small cottage industry in the US of people building replicas of McLaren and Lola Can Am cars. While one or two are up front and honest about what they are doing, it is my observation that the majority pawn these new cars off as the real thing. Caveat emptor indeed.

 

Two years ago there was a Lola T-70 reunion at Road America. Some 22 examples showed up, some for display, but most went out on the track. Of these 22, seven had a legitimate claim to being authentic, two were continuations, and the rest were copies, most of which claimed (falsely) that they were the real thing. There is a LOT of chicanery going on these days....

 

But to get back to the subject, a decent number of real Can Am cars have been withdrawn from any competition because they are too valuable to race. Hence, they have two types of owners. One is the enthusiast who prizes the car for what it is and derives enjoyment from owning such a jewel. The other is the 'flipper' who buys it with the idea of selling it for a profit at next year's auction.

 

A number of owners of the real thing have told me that they have no appetite for racing such an expensive item, especially when they are up against a field of replicas which have stronger tubs, suspensions, and bigger engines than back in the day. Not to mention the driving skill level of what are, after all, essentially amateurs.

 

Tom

And yet....................................people like Tom Price, Tony Wang, Chip Connors, Sandra McNeil, John Mozart, Chris Cox, Peter Sachs and other owners of 250 GTOs still RACE them in the US, and I have seen full fields of GTOs and other "valuable" cars (917s etc) being raced in both the US and in Europe.........................

[Wirra]

"Full fields"?  At Monterey in 2012 4-5 GTOs turned up to race on the Saturday yet 22 were on display at Pebble Beach the next day!

[63Corvette]

"Full fields"?  At Monterey in 2012 4-5 GTOs turned up to race on the Saturday yet 22 were on display at Pebble Beach the next day!

AHHaaaa but in 2004 there was a full field of GTOs and those I mentioned still race their cars.

[tjmann]

We'd love to race our old Open Sports Ford from 1969 here!

[Wirra]

AHHaaaa but in 2004 there was a full field of GTOs and those I mentioned still race their cars.

 

 

That's a Parade Lap not a race.

 

Correction: Monterey was 2011 not 2012. In 2012 we had the same thing at Goodwood where a dozen or so took part in Parade Laps only 2-3 participated in the TT race.

[D28]

Whatever one's views on whether GTOs should be raced, the owners' concerns regarding  a + $35 m automobile can certainly be understood, and they do after all they do own the car.

 

Another thing to consider is that most GTOs will be stock vintage of 62-64 with possibly minor safety upgrades. Any class they are racing in will be against other cars which have undergone constant development since that period. The result is to see the GTOs trundling along mid-pack against cars that wouldn't begin to keep up in period. 

I was fortunate to see 4 or 5 GTOs race at a Shell Historica Ferrari fest a few years ago, and I don't recall one leading the race. One did have an off and destroyed the right panel of the car, not a pretty sight.

 

So I would be of two minds on this; I would not complain of simple parade laps,to even see them running is something special. Worth remembering is that the Ferrari GTO has absolutely nothing to prove today.

[63Corvette]

Whatever one's views on whether GTOs should be raced, the owners' concerns regarding  a + $35 m automobile can certainly be understood, and they do after all they do own the car.

 

Another thing to consider is that most GTOs will be stock vintage of 62-64 with possibly minor safety upgrades. Any class they are racing in will be against other cars which have undergone constant development since that period. The result is to see the GTOs trundling along mid-pack against cars that wouldn't begin to keep up in period. 

I was fortunate to see 4 or 5 GTOs race at a Shell Historica Ferrari fest a few years ago, and I don't recall one leading the race. One did have an off and destroyed the right panel of the car, not a pretty sight.

 

So I would be of two minds on this; I would not complain of simple parade laps,to even see them running is something special. Worth remembering is that the Ferrari GTO has absolutely nothing to prove today.

I absolutely agree! I would much rather see these magnificent cars in a dynamic setting on track than in a museum.

Please let me add that I am amazed and impressed at the very genteel and polite way the members of THIS forum argue or differ with points of view with which they do not agree..............relative to American Forums like The Corvette Form, Mustang Forum etc.

[kayemod]

Please let me add that I am amazed and impressed at the very genteel and polite way the members of THIS forum argue or differ with points of view with which they do not agree..............relative to American Forums like The Corvette Form, Mustang Forum etc.

 

Ah, so you haven't ventured onto the Racing Comments section yet?

[63Corvette]

Ah, so you haven't ventured onto the Racing Comments section yet?

Alright Kaye, thanks for the heads-up. I have gone over , left some comments and kicked over an anthill. So let's see if there are any rabid junkyard dogs there or only gentlemen

[raceannouncer2003]

That's a Parade Lap not a race.

 

 

It was a race.  The video only shows the pace lap prior to the start.  The Ferrari year at Monterey used to be every ten years...1984, 1994, 2004...not any more.  In 2004, they did have lots of GTOs racing.  That won't happen any more.

 

 

Susie Wang pranged their GTO in 2004.

 

 

"I feel so silly", she said.  Tony Wang just laughed, and jumped into his 1964 Sebring winning 275P.

 

Vince H.

Edited by raceannouncer2003, 10 April 2015 - 05:48.