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Force India close to collapse


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#1 Francesc

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Posted 28 January 2015 - 11:11

http://f1-insider.co...-hilft-renault/

 

 

The future of Force India is far from certain: That came out in the context of a meeting of the Formula 1 strategy group in London on Tuesday. The team of Nico Hulkenberg and Sergio Perez is reportedly facing financial collapse. Formula 1 boss Bernie Ecclestone has already been informed of a current insolvency.

 

Ouch.

 

And now they're missing the first test:

 

 

Sahara Force India @ForceIndiaF1 7m7 minutes ago

We have chosen not to run the old (2014) car in Jerez. The learning opportunities would have been limited so the focus is now on Barcelona.

 

 A polite way of saying we have no money.


Edited by Francesc, 28 January 2015 - 11:13.


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#2 chumma

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Posted 28 January 2015 - 11:15

Just read this..interestingly Renault may be up for buying the team and once again running their own team, want to cut ties with Red Bull. Maybe the updated engine is going to be a goody....time will tell, can't see Renault doing it but hey, you never know in this business!



#3 silense

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Posted 28 January 2015 - 11:19

Bad news.. and kinda strange after signing on quite a few new sponsors. The Renault option would be quite interesting. If they bought the team now/soon, they'd be running a Mercedes engine for this year. Can't imagine they'd be able to change to a Renault unit in time. Also Merc would definitely not be happy with Renault running their engine..



#4 Francesc

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Posted 28 January 2015 - 11:23

Bad news.. and kinda strange after signing on quite a few new sponsors. The Renault option would be quite interesting. If they bought the team now/soon, they'd be running a Mercedes engine for this year. Can't imagine they'd be able to change to a Renault unit in time. Also Merc would definitely not be happy with Renault running their engine..

 

All those sponsors are related to Perez, so it's not like they have attracted new sponsors.



#5 TheRacingElf

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Posted 28 January 2015 - 11:29

Luckily they did something about the distribution of the revenues after the collapse of Marussia and Caterham! Oh wait..



#6 Fastcake

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Posted 28 January 2015 - 11:31

We get this every year, yet Force India keep on making the grid and doing a respectable job on track.

Something has got to give though. Mallya and his business partner are both in serious financial trouble back in India, and eventually that is going to deprive the team of funding. Apart from Perez's sponsors, every sticker on the car comes from the owners companies.

#7 chumma

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Posted 28 January 2015 - 11:34

Not just financial, LEGAL troubles.



#8 ch103

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Posted 28 January 2015 - 11:35

any minute now we will see a post on joesaward.wordpress.com with all of the details.



#9 chumma

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Posted 28 January 2015 - 11:46

Am I the only one who can't stand Joe Saward?



#10 FullThrottleF1

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Posted 28 January 2015 - 11:48

"Another One Bites the Dust" - Bernie Ecclestone



#11 Taxi

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Posted 28 January 2015 - 11:50

Not just financial, LEGAL troubles.

 

I told them they should have got rid of Sutil earlier. 



#12 Afterburner

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Posted 28 January 2015 - 11:52

We get this every year, yet Force India keep on making the grid and doing a respectable job on track.

Something has got to give though. Mallya and his business partner are both in serious financial trouble back in India, and eventually that is going to deprive the team of funding. Apart from Perez's sponsors, every sticker on the car comes from the owners companies.

Is it just me, or are 'serious financial trouble' and 'darn, I may have to shut down my F1 team' not exactly congruous statements? :p

#13 DaddyCool

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Posted 28 January 2015 - 11:53

I really hope Force India pulls through - F1 needs more solid midfielder teams that opt for talent rather than money. They started as the backmarker team, last year, they could even give some of the big guys a run for their money.



#14 Kristian

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Posted 28 January 2015 - 11:53

Am I the only one who can't stand Joe Saward?

 

I know a lot don't like him, but I do enjoy his blog - he can be a bit of a curmudgeon at times, but usually he has a good point. 



#15 chumma

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Posted 28 January 2015 - 11:55

I haven't read any of his stuff for 2 years but when I do im reminded of why. He has an agenda against certain teams/drivers and can't help himself. And I hate how everything is named by elapsed hours after the race. I think he went on a big rant one blog post a few years ago about other journos and how he's been there for x amount of years like he is owed something, rubbed me the wrong way.



#16 Nathan

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Posted 28 January 2015 - 11:58

 

Luckily they did something about the distribution of the revenues after the collapse of Marussia and Caterham! Oh wait..

 

Too bad the companies of the teams owners  who bought the team to promote these brands - have either had their assets frozen, have been sold off, or are simply broke.

Too bad the team can't sell sponsorship, unless it's to sell a driver a race seat.

Too bad the FIA has done little to make Formula-1 more affordable for teams.


Edited by Nathan, 28 January 2015 - 19:13.


#17 Lights

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Posted 28 January 2015 - 12:01

 

And now they're missing the first test:

 

 

 A polite way of saying we have no money.

 

 

I never understood teams playing this off like that. With the exception of Brawn in 2009, when has it ever turned out positive for a team to miss an important test like that?


Edited by Lights, 28 January 2015 - 12:01.


#18 dau

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Posted 28 January 2015 - 12:02

It wouldn't be a pre-season without a thread about FI collapsing.



#19 LORDBYRON

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Posted 28 January 2015 - 12:10

Could there be a return of the black and yellow hornet if this is the case who knows?, But yes we here this a lot from many teams 



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#20 Nathan

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Posted 28 January 2015 - 12:10

Speaking of Saward, his little temper tantrum over the F1 Racing exclusive with the Williams reveal was quite childish IMO.

 

"I dot really care one way or the other but if I was on the news desk of another magazine I would probably not be too impressed, and if have little incentive to be nice and fair to Team Willy." - Joe Saward

 

Are exclusives that rare in media?

 

Then how he attacked his readers for not agreeing with his stance was the icing.  What a fool.



#21 FullThrottleF1

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Posted 28 January 2015 - 12:14

Could there be a return of the black and yellow hornet if this is the case who knows?, But yes we here this a lot from many teams 

:rotfl:  :rotfl:  :rotfl:



#22 FullThrottleF1

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Posted 28 January 2015 - 12:15

Speaking of Saward, his little temper tantrum over the F1 Racing exclusive with the Williams reveal was quite childish IMO.

 

"I dot really care one way or the other but if I was on the news desk of another magazine I would probably not be too impressed, and if have little incentive to be nice and fair to Team Willy." - Joe Saward

 

Are exclusives that rare in media?

 

Then how he attacked his readers for not agreeing with his stance was the icing.  What a fool.

He told me off in the comments section of his blog once just because I disagreed with his viewpoint.



#23 Fastcake

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Posted 28 January 2015 - 12:16

Is it just me, or are 'serious financial trouble' and 'darn, I may have to shut down my F1 team' not exactly congruous statements? :p


It certainly never stopped Andrea Moda from trying!

#24 dau

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Posted 28 January 2015 - 12:19

 

 
 

 

I never understood teams playing this off like that. With the exception of Brawn in 2009, when has it ever turned out positive for a team to miss an important test like that?

 

Red Bull in 2009 and 2010 for example. I don't think making the first test is as crucial as last season when they had to gain experience with all the new power unit stuff. And they planned to only run the old car there anyway because the new one wasn't going to be ready, so it's not that much of a loss. 



#25 LORDBYRON

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Posted 28 January 2015 - 12:21

 

Just read this..interestingly Renault may be up for buying the team and once again running their own team, want to cut ties with Red Bull. Maybe the updated engine is going to be a goody....time will tell, can't see Renault doing it but hey, you never know in this business!

 

 Renault could easily buy the remains of the marussia f1 or Caterham for chump change and and do a deal for less to no debt then re-brand next year with a new chassis so why buy a team where the debt cant go away ?



#26 F1ultimate

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Posted 28 January 2015 - 12:26

It wouldn't be a pre-season without a thread about FI collapsing.

 

Agreed. Haven't they been on the brink of a collapse for the past 3 seasons?



#27 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

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Posted 28 January 2015 - 12:27

Bad news.. and kinda strange after signing on quite a few new sponsors. The Renault option would be quite interesting. If they bought the team now/soon, they'd be running a Mercedes engine for this year. Can't imagine they'd be able to change to a Renault unit in time. Also Merc would definitely not be happy with Renault running their engine..

 

Maybe the sponsors are giving staggered payments rather than upfront lump sumps hence these early and critical woes.



#28 Tourgott

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Posted 28 January 2015 - 12:37

Marussia, Catherham, Force India and soon Sauber.

Hell yeah, V6! It's alright as long as Honda is back...  :rolleyes:



#29 GrumpyYoungMan

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Posted 28 January 2015 - 12:41

Bad news.. and kinda strange after signing on quite a few new sponsors. The Renault option would be quite interesting. If they bought the team now/soon, they'd be running a Mercedes engine for this year. Can't imagine they'd be able to change to a Renault unit in time. Also Merc would definitely not be happy with Renault running their engine..

No different to McLaren was last year (2014)



#30 Rinehart

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Posted 28 January 2015 - 12:41

So the reality is that Marussia and Caterham are no more and Force India and Sauber are in very serious trouble. 

 

That leaves RBR, TR, Mercedes, McLaren, Ferrari, Williams and possibly Lotus who seem to be the weakest of the remaining entrants alongside HASS who I will be pleasantly surprised to see last 5 years.

 

So - 12 to 16 cars over the next 5 years whilst pushing F1 through ANOTHER engine change and apparently a sporting revolution. 

 

And that's if none of the engine manufacturers pull the pin and the global economy behaves itself.



#31 khatibrifath

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Posted 28 January 2015 - 12:49

Dont worry........RBR will buy force india and name it "laal bhais" (hindi translation of red bull)...............sauber in trouble no problem RBR will buy it and name it in some other language......lotus in trouble no problem there is RBR..........f1 in trouble no problem there is formula redbull......bernie in trouble no problem there is horner......



#32 GhostR

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Posted 28 January 2015 - 12:53

So - 12 to 16 cars over the next 5 years whilst pushing F1 through ANOTHER engine change and apparently a sporting revolution. 

 

The 1000hp engine change they're talking about isn't a new engine change. The plan is to achieve that through moderate and affordable alterations to the existing formula. The bodywork and tyres changes they're talking about (if they all come in at the same time) are more of a worry from the expense side, but hopefully they'll be smart and phase them in so the costs can be spread across years and the teams can evolve into the new regs instead of making a huge jump that invalidates previous year(s) R&D.



#33 rich06

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Posted 28 January 2015 - 13:03

I haven't read any of his stuff for 2 years but when I do im reminded of why. He has an agenda against certain teams/drivers and can't help himself. And I hate how everything is named by elapsed hours after the race. I think he went on a big rant one blog post a few years ago about other journos and how he's been there for x amount of years like he is owed something, rubbed me the wrong way.

 

+1 -- I always think Sniffpetrol's Trentham Sleaves charater is modelled on him..  http://sniffpetrol.c...entham-sleaves/



#34 BillyWhizz

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Posted 28 January 2015 - 13:30

+1 -- I always think Sniffpetrol's Trentham Sleaves charater is modelled on him..  http://sniffpetrol.c...entham-sleaves/

 

Aaaaaah! Absolutely! You've joined the dots. You have to be right! :up:

 

Neither will be the same for me from this time onwards.



#35 Rinehart

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Posted 28 January 2015 - 13:31

The 1000hp engine change they're talking about isn't a new engine change. The plan is to achieve that through moderate and affordable alterations to the existing formula. The bodywork and tyres changes they're talking about (if they all come in at the same time) are more of a worry from the expense side, but hopefully they'll be smart and phase them in so the costs can be spread across years and the teams can evolve into the new regs instead of making a huge jump that invalidates previous year(s) R&D.

They are very far from deciding a new engine formula and based on the last 25 years of F1 squabbles, excuse me if I predict that the majority of future changes will be ill-conceived and expensive.

 

With more small teams killed off in F1 there are less customers to sell their ridiculously priced engines to (which helped killed them in the first place), thus huge costs which cannot be offset, even if development is cheaper than the last change. 


Edited by Rinehart, 28 January 2015 - 13:32.


#36 DrEvil

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Posted 28 January 2015 - 13:37

F1 is to expensive, small Teams get almost no money, and Ecclestone is a commie.



#37 anbeck

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Posted 28 January 2015 - 13:48

F1 is to expensive, small Teams get almost no money, and Ecclestone is a commie.

 

Well, if Ecclestone were a commie, each team would get money according to its needs.



#38 ChrisF1MyLife

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Posted 28 January 2015 - 14:01

call me a simpleton, but this looked obvious there was trouble when there was no green on the car, green orange and what was like a team colour, it's like they're phasing out the "indianess"

 

sad to see if they go, but always struck me as a team with potential which never comes through often enough.

 

i'd love a grid of midfield teams, better then 2 or 3 super quick teams, a gaggle of midfielders then a tail end of loosers



#39 DinocoBlue

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Posted 28 January 2015 - 14:26

Its a shame if they are in trouble, hopefully they can be saved. OK, any debts and fiscal issues aside, it would be a great purchase for any potential owner - such as Renault mentioned above - its not like they'd have to do a great deal to right the ship.



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#40 oetzi

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Posted 28 January 2015 - 14:52

They are very far from deciding a new engine formula and based on the last 25 years of F1 squabbles, excuse me if I predict that the majority of future changes will be ill-conceived and expensive.

 

With more small teams killed off in F1 there are less customers to sell their ridiculously priced engines to (which helped killed them in the first place), thus huge costs which cannot be offset, even if development is cheaper than the last change. 

Engines aren't really the problem - manufacturers are much happier binning money on engines than on aero, it shows the world how clever they are if they can make the winning engine. The aero expenses are massive, and only rising as testing is cut back in favour of simulation. F1 aero doesn't say anything of any interest about the people paying the bills but, as aero knowledge increases, returns diminish and the cost of obtaining an advantage increases.

 

The F1 teams themselves (who set the rules) basically depend for their existence on a their expertise on this small, irrelevant corner of aerodynamic analysis - how air flows over an open wheel, open cockpit car with a plank nailed to the floor. Take that aspect away (no wings, big slicks formula for instance) and who needs McLaren? Or Williams? Or 'Mercedes' or 'Red Bull' or 'Lotus', let alone 'Force India'? 

 

So, given that turkeys won't vote for Christmas, the teams all moan about how engines make F1 unaffordable, while at the same time getting together and formulating rules that constantly ramp up the cost and complication of the only aspect of the sport they can use to justify their own existence.

 

However much money they get, the teams will spend as much as they can on aero to maintaining the competitive advantage they need to exist. If FI had a budget of £20 million less than they do and engines free, they would budget the lot for chassis (basically aero), then borrow for contingency spending, and probably go bust anyway.

 

The only likely result of significantly cheaper engines would be a few more teams entering (and probably failing fast) as the entry barrier would be lower - again, not something the current teams are keen on. If the technological and financial barriers become ever higher, their position becomes ever better. So long as they can pay to survive.



#41 emmanuelrubi

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Posted 28 January 2015 - 15:07

So Force India to have a Lotus 2014 esque season



#42 Jimisgod

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Posted 28 January 2015 - 15:09

"F1 to have 10 car teams by 2020"

Not far from the truth unless the cash situation is solved.

#43 frosty125

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Posted 28 January 2015 - 15:12

I hope for FI that these reports are overblown. They have already admitted the performance of the launch car will not be that good and that they need to develop a B aero package for Barcelona. No money means no development.  



#44 SpartanChas

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Posted 28 January 2015 - 15:16

All those sponsors are related to Perez, so it's not like they have attracted new sponsors.


They've taken a couple from Lotus. Rexona, for example.

#45 emmanuelrubi

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Posted 28 January 2015 - 15:17

They've taken a couple from Lotus. Rexona, for example.

 

That was Williams.


Edited by emmanuelrubi, 28 January 2015 - 15:17.


#46 kevinracefan

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Posted 28 January 2015 - 15:53

Red Bull has missed "first tests" a couple times and held the trophy at the end of the season...



#47 FullThrottleF1

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Posted 28 January 2015 - 15:56

any minute now we will see a post on joesaward.wordpress.com with all of the details.

 

Here is the post you have been waiting for   ;)

https://joesaward.wo...its-and-bobs-2/


Edited by FullThrottleF1, 28 January 2015 - 15:57.


#48 kevinracefan

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Posted 28 January 2015 - 15:58

This has been a drip drip drip drip process, slowly circling the drain because of Vijay's business practices... the writing has been on that wall for several years now... certainly when kingfisher got grounded...



#49 ninetyzero

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Posted 28 January 2015 - 16:00

I really hope Force India pulls through - F1 needs more solid midfielder teams that opt for talent rather than money. They started as the backmarker team, last year, they could even give some of the big guys a run for their money.

 

This. F1 needs independent mid-grid teams like Force India who occasionally punch above their weight. How dull would it be if it was 5 big teams and 5 Torro Rosso-esque b-teams?



#50 GoldenColt

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Posted 28 January 2015 - 16:01

Red Bull has missed "first tests" a couple times and held the trophy at the end of the season...

 

They haven't missed it in 2014.

They haven't missed it in 2013.

They haven't missed it in 2012.

They haven't missed it in 2011.


Edited by GoldenColt, 28 January 2015 - 16:02.