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Force India close to collapse


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#251 ninetyzero

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Posted 11 February 2015 - 18:36

GP2 teams are insanely small compared to F1 teams, the only junior series team that could try to join F1 if they joined all their different series teams together might be DAMS. Other than them I dont see anyone with the manpower or money to make the jump sadly

 

 

Having some kind of two tier F1 would at least prevent a full on F1 team from having to finish last all the time. I mean, how long will Force India / Sauber and their sponsors be happy to stay in the sport once they are known as the 'back of the grid' and always coming in last. If they had 10 other Tier 2 cars behind them, the perception would be much better from Joe Publics point of view.

 

 

It's not just size, GP2 teams lack development and building facilities because they run spec cars. They could of course commission someone like Dallara to build an F1 car for them, but that's not going to be cheap either and sooner or later they'd want to have their own car development, so they'd acquire a factory and hire lots of staff - only to then get demoted back to GP2 the following year? I can't see how that would work in the long term. F1 is just too complex and expensive for lower tier garagist teams nowadays.

 

 

This is actually a decent idea, and would be a step up from GP2 for junior drivers. :)

 

There is a huge gulf between F1 teams and GP2 teams, we need a championship between GP2 and F1 that isn't a spec series so teams can learn to build a car, maybe we could call it 'Formula 2' ...



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#252 Jon83

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Posted 11 February 2015 - 18:41

What F1 needs is a death of Bernie Ecclestone :)

 

FFS



#253 Nemo1965

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Posted 11 February 2015 - 18:42

What F1 needs is a death of Bernie Ecclestone :)

 

A death? Then he still has another five lives, by my calculation.


Edited by Nemo1965, 11 February 2015 - 18:43.


#254 stiffy

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Posted 11 February 2015 - 19:03

Love him or loathe him Bernie is F1 ,wishing for anyones death is not christian or any other religous belief come to that,maybe you should put more of the blame with CVC,they control the purse strings not Bernie.

#255 Jon83

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Posted 11 February 2015 - 19:30

Love him or loathe him Bernie is F1 ,wishing for anyones death is not christian or any other religous belief come to that,maybe you should put more of the blame with CVC,they control the purse strings not Bernie.

 

Anyone wishing death on an old man like BE is utterly loathsome, regardless of whether they practice or believe in religion.



#256 kevinracefan

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Posted 11 February 2015 - 19:38

Bernie's made millionaires out of a lot of people..

 

could've been a lot more but they were too dumb to invest in him...

 

hardly reason to die...



#257 superden

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Posted 11 February 2015 - 19:46

Bernie is F1.


Cobblers. The sport existed long before he waddled along. Sadly, it might not after he's gone, thanks to the monumental mess it has become, thanks in no small part to him. He may have made it commercially successful and more of a 'show' but that's done **** all for the racing, or the fans. I can only assume that those who espouse this view are fans of business achievements, VIP facilities and profit margins rather than actual racing.

#258 Peter Perfect

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Posted 11 February 2015 - 20:29

Love him or loathe him Bernie is F1 ,wishing for anyones death is not christian or any other religous belief come to that,maybe you should put more of the blame with CVC,they control the purse strings not Bernie.

 

OT: Believe it or not the non-religious also have morals. Maybe one for this thread?



#259 ClubmanGT

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Posted 11 February 2015 - 20:57

Cobblers. The sport existed long before he waddled along. Sadly, it might not after he's gone, thanks to the monumental mess it has become, thanks in no small part to him. He may have made it commercially successful and more of a 'show' but that's done **** all for the racing, or the fans. I can only assume that those who espouse this view are fans of business achievements, VIP facilities and profit margins rather than actual racing.

 

If you read the bullshit ideas about sprint races and so on in the feature article this week, you'll see just what sort of change we're in line for when he disappears. 

 

I hope he's immortal.



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#260 pdac

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Posted 11 February 2015 - 21:06

Cobblers. The sport existed long before he waddled along. Sadly, it might not after he's gone, thanks to the monumental mess it has become, thanks in no small part to him. He may have made it commercially successful and more of a 'show' but that's done **** all for the racing, or the fans. I can only assume that those who espouse this view are fans of business achievements, VIP facilities and profit margins rather than actual racing.

 

The sport existed before him, but it's not a sport now. It's a multi-million dollar business. It's customers are not race fans, it's corporations that want an arena where they can do business with other corporations or can be introduced to very rich potential customers. On the side is another business that sells the TV companies the rights to show a bunch of multi-millionnaires showing off their wealth to the masses.

 

As  a result, what's left of the 'sporting side' has turned into a spend-fest, throwing away vast amounts of cash like it's just paper. There's little sport left anymore. But ... you might as well enjoy what there is.



#261 Elba

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Posted 11 February 2015 - 22:53

What F1 needs is a death of Bernie Ecclestone :)

Meh I'd rather have Bernie in our sport than some of his ill wishers who have done nothing for the sport than sit on a couch and watch it

Go Bernie!!   ;)



#262 turssi

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Posted 11 February 2015 - 22:54

Losing Bernie would probably result in a cancelled season.

He is trying to bring back Manor currently, when that fails he'll give FI a hand. One emergency at a time.

#263 BRG

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Posted 11 February 2015 - 23:54

Losing Bernie would probably result in a cancelled season.

:rotfl: As if.  He would get a lot of serious tributes, a two minute silence on the grid, some black armbands.  In a couple of months, he would be forgotten.



#264 Peter0Scandlyn

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Posted 12 February 2015 - 04:51

Losing Bernie would probably result in a cancelled season.

 

 

Be some hurried scrambling, shouldn't come to that. After all, have faith in Jean....



#265 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 12 February 2015 - 05:22

There is a huge gulf between F1 teams and GP2 teams, we need a championship between GP2 and F1 that isn't a spec series so teams can learn to build a car, maybe we could call it 'Formula 2' ...

 

Why do they need to build a car!?  Running it is fine, and much much cheaper.  I don't mind if the car is built by Dallara, Swift, Panoz et al...



#266 Gilles4Ever

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Posted 12 February 2015 - 07:36

Please get this thread back on topic, Force India close to collapse



#267 Sash1

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Posted 12 February 2015 - 08:19

Force India says they have the chassis and are just waiting on parts.
Now there is a claim on a site (who got a lot of close to truth early rumors) that the chassis is still at Formaplex and will not be released to FI until the bill is paid.

 

Contradiction. Who is telling the truth?



#268 wj_gibson

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Posted 12 February 2015 - 08:37

I concur with the above view that FI's difficulties with creditors have chaff all to do with any change in climate in F1 generally and are everything to do with its own credit history. Personally, I doubt they'll,last the season even if it they get to Melbourne.

#269 CoolBreeze

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Posted 12 February 2015 - 08:57

Most teams collapse partically because F1 is more show than it's actual objective, which is sport. It's amazing compared to other sports, i'm not saying there isn't, but hardly any collapse, whereas here every season there's someone falling like flies. 

 

In a way, Max Mosley did mention sometime ago that F1 needs to focus on the smaller, private teams. He said bigger teams (manufacturers) will walk away at some point, and he is right. Toyota, Honda (although they returned as a supplier), pulled out and BMW ran away. 

 

It's time they should start protecting the smaller teams. 



#270 SenorSjon

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Posted 12 February 2015 - 09:14

Force India says they have the chassis and are just waiting on parts.
Now there is a claim on a site (who got a lot of close to truth early rumors) that the chassis is still at Formaplex and will not be released to FI until the bill is paid.

 

Contradiction. Who is telling the truth?

 

Maybe Manor could buy it. That would be karma ftw. ;) 



#271 noikeee

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Posted 12 February 2015 - 10:42

If FI (and Manor) don't make it to Australia F1 are in deep ****. You can still have an event with 16 cars, but it's going to be pretty damn underwhelming and starting to push the limits of the bare minimum.



#272 Fastcake

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Posted 12 February 2015 - 12:14

If FI (and Manor) don't make it to Australia F1 are in deep ****. You can still have an event with 16 cars, but it's going to be pretty damn underwhelming and starting to push the limits of the bare minimum.


I'm sure those who claim only the top few cars matter will see how wrong they are after watching that.

#273 chipmcdonald

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Posted 12 February 2015 - 13:31

If FI (and Manor) don't make it to Australia F1 are in deep ****. You can still have an event with 16 cars, but it's going to be pretty damn underwhelming and starting to push the limits of the bare minimum.

 

 

.. and people say Bernie is an idiot for trying to get some 2013 RBR's on the grid as private entrants. 

 

 Sauber is not healthy, and if Williams doesn't have another hard-charging season they could fall into the "not healthy" category.  Mix in Grexit, and F1 is in big trouble.

 

.. but this was known in 2008, and the teams did it, not Bernie - they couldn't see beyond the ends of their noses.  Bernie didn't have the power to demand they cut costs, they all went along with it.

 

 Which will leave GP2 as the "pinnacle".....

 

They need to stop thinking about cutting costs and figure out how to double the number of feet coming to the races in order to make the branding worth while. 


Edited by chipmcdonald, 12 February 2015 - 13:33.


#274 LORDBYRON

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Posted 12 February 2015 - 13:49

Maybe Manor could buy it. That would be karma ftw.  ;)

they cant they dont own the ip to it but yeah it would be



#275 SealTheDiffuser

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Posted 12 February 2015 - 13:56

What F1 needs is a death of Bernie Ecclestone :)

 

He is a pain, yes, but I'm not sure that F1 can survive Ecclestone's death.



#276 GhostR

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Posted 12 February 2015 - 13:58

I wrote up my thoughts on Fernley's blaming Caterham/Marussia collapsing for Force India's current situation a few days ago, but didn't post it immediately (due to a phone call and then the wife arriving home) and lost the post. Pretty much everything I wanted to say has now been said by others, but figured I'd drop my thoughts anyway.

 

Realistically, Fernley needs to look closer to home. Sauber and (to a lesser extent) Lotus are both also in financially shaky situations, however their suppliers have apparently continued to supply without demanding everything be paid up-front. Or, they have demanded up-front payment and those teams have been able to pay.

 

This feels to me more like the suppliers have taken a long, hard look at two things: the current state of F1 finances on the whole; and the current state of Force India's finances and their financial history. That history analysis won't just look at whether or not Force India have historically paid on time. It will also be looking at the future prospects of the team, and the status of the team owners. One of whom is currently in jail with charges relating to pretty severe financial misconduct (Sahara's owner), and the other who is facing allegations of being a "Willful Defaulter" - classed as a person who is deliberately defaulting on credit payments they could afford to pay, but instead diverting the funds elsewhere.

 

Given that the banks involved could point at Force India being the recipient of the funds diversion, the suppliers are likely making an educated guess that Force India's budget could evaporate on very short notice. The risk of extending them a line of credit at this point is far too high, and hence they're holding the parts back until they get paid.

 

It may even be that the portion of Force India's budget supplied by Mallya and Sahara has already dried up, and that's why they can't pay up front.



#277 LORDBYRON

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Posted 12 February 2015 - 13:59

.. and people say Bernie is an idiot for trying to get some 2013 RBR's on the grid as private entrants. 

 

 Sauber is not healthy, and if Williams doesn't have another hard-charging season they could fall into the "not healthy" category.  Mix in Grexit, and F1 is in big trouble.

 

.. but this was known in 2008, and the teams did it, not Bernie - they couldn't see beyond the ends of their noses.  Bernie didn't have the power to demand they cut costs, they all went along with it.

 

 Which will leave GP2 as the "pinnacle".....

 

They need to stop thinking about cutting costs and figure out how to double the number of feet coming to the races in order to make the branding worth while. 

Rubbish its this that got them here in the first place Claire Williams said it in the sky interview you dont 200 million to run a team 50/70 is well enough 

 

if your told that all there is x  then you budget for what you got its the reason all the new teams went bust 

 

if SFI and Marusia fail to show I like others will lose the will to watch it there will be no underdog to watch not every one watches the front teams 



#278 chipmcdonald

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Posted 12 February 2015 - 14:07

Rubbish its this that got them here in the first place Claire Williams said it in the sky interview you dont 200 million to run a team 50/70 is well enough 

 

if your told that all there is x  then you budget for what you got its the reason all the new teams went bust 

 

if SFI and Marusia fail to show I like others will lose the will to watch it there will be no underdog to watch not every one watches the front teams 

 

 

 "Cutting costs" isn't working, is it?  The teams with the biggest pockets wins in the existing scenario, they're not going to give up that advantage - EVER.   Which is why we're here.

 

 The regulations have to be such that there is diminishing returns built in.   And they also have to create a series that is exciting enough to bring people back.  "Cutting costs" in F1 is like believing the U.S. congress is going to "lower taxes".



#279 BRG

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Posted 12 February 2015 - 14:09

 "Cutting costs" isn't working, is it?  

 

We don't know.  No-one has ever tried it.



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#280 JHSingo

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Posted 12 February 2015 - 14:16

Welp from what I'm hearing they're not gonna make it to Australia. They wont attend the last Barcelona test with the new car

 

With all due respect, this is what's wrong with this thread. People posting stuff like this, with absolutely no sources or context.

 

And, most likely, it isn't even accurate.

Would it be too much to refrain from posting such comments, until there's official confirmation/reliable source? Otherwise anyone can spew anything based on what they've 'heard'.



#281 Rinehart

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Posted 12 February 2015 - 14:16

 "Cutting costs" isn't working, is it?  The teams with the biggest pockets wins in the existing scenario, they're not going to give up that advantage - EVER.   Which is why we're here.

 

 The regulations have to be such that there is diminishing returns built in.   And they also have to create a series that is exciting enough to bring people back.  "Cutting costs" in F1 is like believing the U.S. congress is going to "lower taxes".

If you were to find a way to vastly increase the income that F1 generates, through increased races, attendenced, PPV revenues, mechandise sales etc, I suspect the following would happen:

 

1. CVC would take a proportionately larger share of the income.

2. All the teams would be paid more. This means that spending would go UP from top to bottom of the grid.

3. The exact same problems of financial crisis would remain at the back of the grid, with the stakes even higher. All this would mean is that the life cycle of a team would be even shorter.

 

Unless the minimum cost to be moderately competitive (within 3 seconds a lap) is slashed, the problem isn't fixed. Its absolutely irrelevant how much the top teams spend, they can afford it. 

 

SFI, Marussia etc, needs to be able to go racing in F1 for not £80m but less than £40m and be within 3 seconds of the pace. Again, now much Red Bull spend to be 3 seconds quicker, is up to them. 



#282 pdac

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Posted 12 February 2015 - 14:17

 "Cutting costs" isn't working, is it?  The teams with the biggest pockets wins in the existing scenario, they're not going to give up that advantage - EVER.   Which is why we're here.

 

 The regulations have to be such that there is diminishing returns built in.   And they also have to create a series that is exciting enough to bring people back.  "Cutting costs" in F1 is like believing the U.S. congress is going to "lower taxes".

 

Maybe that's because they're not cutting costs.

 

I hate to say this, but one approach might be to totally freeze the technical regs for many seasons. Those with big budgets will spend whatever they can to get an extra tenth. If those that have no budget spend nothing, they'll only lose out by that extra tenth.

It won't happen that way, I know, but I think the general idea is sound. I would not like to see this happen, though.



#283 charly0418

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Posted 12 February 2015 - 14:54

With all due respect, this is what's wrong with this thread. People posting stuff like this, with absolutely no sources or context.

 

And, most likely, it isn't even accurate.

Would it be too much to refrain from posting such comments, until there's official confirmation/reliable source? Otherwise anyone can spew anything based on what they've 'heard'.

 

 

There are a lot of posters here that have insider info to F1 stuff, you just gotta pick who you believe or not. Some of of them actually bring you good scoops before the mainsteam media reports it, thats one of the things I love from this place.

 

Im posting what Im hearing

 

Plus, almost every fan here is a little more hardcore fan than your average racing fan, its good to speculate on stuff, in fact, its necessary, ha


Edited by charly0418, 12 February 2015 - 14:55.


#284 Gilles4Ever

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Posted 12 February 2015 - 15:02

Once again everyone has forgotten this thread is about Force India, not Bernie, not Marussia, not Williams, not about prize money in F1, there are threads for all those topics.

 

If there is any news about Force India that warrants the re-opening of the thread please contact one of the moderators.