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How would track-versions of hypercars (Mclaren P1, LaFerrari, Koenigsegg One:1) fair in Le Mans/Endurance racing?


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#1 GenJackRipper

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Posted 29 January 2015 - 17:23

As we all know endurance racing is either prototypes or GT cars: racing editions of the brands more "average" sports car (there is a requirement that they sell more than 200 per year if I'm not mistaken).

But how would track versions of the different brands do in a Le Mans/Endurance Race? I'm thinking Mclaren P1 GTR, LaFerrariXX, Koenigsegg One:1 (minus electronics) and soforth. Perhaps even a Pagani Huyara R.

They would obviously do better than the GT cars, but could they even challenge the prototypes? I wouldn't rule it out.

What do you people say?

 



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#2 DampMongoose

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Posted 29 January 2015 - 17:30

Just 1 point on the Top Gear test track an Aston Martin DBR9 ran 5 seconds faster than a standard Huayra.  A DBR9 can get around Silverstone in the high 1min 50's.  A Prototype is about 17 seconds faster, so I doubt they'd challenge much.   



#3 Fastcake

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Posted 29 January 2015 - 17:38

They'll struggle to match the prototypes, they are simply too advanced for a track-version supercar.

 

That said, I would love to see a McLaren win at Le Mans once again... :love:



#4 TCRacing

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Posted 29 January 2015 - 17:44

Well I see your point, but i actualy think that the Top Gear Lap Times aren't really representative..., Isn't there a Caterham on the top of the timsesheets?



#5 vsabljic

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Posted 29 January 2015 - 17:45

Regulations favor prototypes at the moment.

In the 90s GT1 cars were as fast as prototypes (McLaren F1, 991 GT1..)

Porsche even made a road going car based on the prototype (Dauer 962) and then homologated it as a GT1 race car



#6 FerrariV12

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Posted 29 January 2015 - 17:52

I'd love to see a GT1 based around those sort of supercars, then a GT2 for your current GTE machinery.

 

There's probably tons of reasons why it'd never happen - cost, availability, stretching of the rules to the point where the cars are LMP coupes in all but name (as happened towards the end of the 90s GT1 era - EDIT: And the start - the Dauer example mentioned above).


Edited by FerrariV12, 29 January 2015 - 17:52.


#7 juicy sushi

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Posted 29 January 2015 - 17:57

As we all know endurance racing is either prototypes or GT cars: racing editions of the brands more "average" sports car (there is a requirement that they sell more than 200 per year if I'm not mistaken).

But how would track versions of the different brands do in a Le Mans/Endurance Race? I'm thinking Mclaren P1 GTR, LaFerrariXX, Koenigsegg One:1 (minus electronics) and soforth. Perhaps even a Pagani Huyara R.

They would obviously do better than the GT cars, but could they even challenge the prototypes? I wouldn't rule it out.

What do you people say?

 

The McLaren is in the ballpark for GT3 lap times.  The rest, with less downforce, would be slower.  On slicks, they'd be closer but they're still way too heavy, with too little downforce.



#8 10e10

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Posted 29 January 2015 - 18:00

In a magazine, can't remember which, claimed that sources from McLaren said the P1 GTR is slower than the 650S GT3. I don't know if it's true, but if it is, then they don't stand a chance against the prototypes. 



#9 HaydenFan

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Posted 29 January 2015 - 18:04

Was the Zonda that ran Le Mans a while ago a factory effort or a private entry? Last supercar to run Le Mans. 

 

I do like the idea though. Especially with the LaFerrari, P1, and 918. All are hybrid cars. Seeing as the top prototype programs are running hybrid systems, the same idea could be applied to the GT field. Though like seen in the hybrid prototypes, it'd be a huge cost that only factory entries could really employ. 


Edited by HaydenFan, 29 January 2015 - 18:06.


#10 Jager

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Posted 29 January 2015 - 18:23

The last time a Pagani ran at Le Mans (2003), it only lasted 10 laps. Its not just a question of speed, its also being able to do it reliably and consistently for 5,000kms.

 

Having said that, I'd love to see some of the current generation of Supercars run in Endurance racing.



#11 Jager

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Posted 29 January 2015 - 18:32

Regulations favor prototypes at the moment.

In the 90s GT1 cars were as fast as prototypes (McLaren F1, 991 GT1..)

Porsche even made a road going car based on the prototype (Dauer 962) and then homologated it as a GT1 race car

Le Mans regulations have always favoured prototypes.

 

My understanding was the McLaren F1 was only as fast as the prototypes in 1995 due to the heavy rain. In the dry conditions the folloing year the McLaren's were blown away by the prototypes.

 

The Porsche Dauer 962 and the Porsche 911 GT's which followed were race cars homologated as road cars, not road cars homologated as race cars. Hence they were muh closer to the prototypes.



#12 Rasputin

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Posted 29 January 2015 - 18:44

The Koenigsegg would do just fine, for at least a lap or two.



#13 Nemo1965

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Posted 29 January 2015 - 18:49

At Le Mans the LMP1 prototypes (bit of a tautology there) would spank the hyper-cars. However, at certain tracks - twisty, not many long straights - I dare to wonder...



#14 Henri Greuter

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Posted 29 January 2015 - 19:22

I doubt if they would do well. Their levels of downforce are nowhere near what the protoypes can generate so their corner speeds are less.

But there is also the weight to consider, they are more hefty too.

So maybe on par on straightline speeds.

But I also think there is a good chance that they arw way less fuel inefficient thus need to stop for fuel too often, oven compared with the lower category GT cars we se in racing right now.

Those hypercars are nice to park in your garage and maybe to crawl around with at Monaco but much more show opjects that serious usable tools or race suited.

 

Henri



#15 GenJackRipper

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Posted 29 January 2015 - 20:53

Conclusion after 13 replies: The prototypes would beat them, but it would be a great addition to the race/races.

Does anyone know someone at FIA and/or Automobile Club de L'ouest? :cool:



#16 vsabljic

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Posted 29 January 2015 - 22:13

Le Mans regulations have always favoured prototypes.

 

My understanding was the McLaren F1 was only as fast as the prototypes in 1995 due to the heavy rain. In the dry conditions the folloing year the McLaren's were blown away by the prototypes.

 

The Porsche Dauer 962 and the Porsche 911 GT's which followed were race cars homologated as road cars, not road cars homologated as race cars. Hence they were muh closer to the prototypes.

 

I am sure the regulations did not intend to favor the GT1 cars, but the loophole was used by almost every manufacturer (911, Mercedes GTR, Toyota GTone, Nissan R390..) so you could say the rules favored GT1 cars. And McLaren F1 was very slow compared to prototypes - it really is amazing they won.



#17 Imateria

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Posted 29 January 2015 - 22:37

Le Mans regulations have always favoured prototypes.

 

My understanding was the McLaren F1 was only as fast as the prototypes in 1995 due to the heavy rain. In the dry conditions the folloing year the McLaren's were blown away by the prototypes.

 

The Porsche Dauer 962 and the Porsche 911 GT's which followed were race cars homologated as road cars, not road cars homologated as race cars. Hence they were muh closer to the prototypes.

The McLarens all qualified down in the lower reaches of the teens and the 20's in 95 but almost all of the prototypes they were racing against were unreliable and their drivers crashed them though they were much faster ( Mario Andretti had a pretty hefty off in the Porsche curves yet his works Courage still finished 2nd).

 

Once the 911 GT1 was brought in, it and all subsequent cars were effectively prototypes playing lip service to the road going requirement (I believe many of them didn't even come close to reaching the 25 cars needed for homoligation), certainly the likes of the Toyota TS020 GT-One and the Bentley EXP Speed 8 were full on race cars.

 

As for the modern hyper cars, unmodified they'd be utterly thrashed by the GTE-am cars, simply because they're not racing cars and aren't remotely set up for on track competition. If you came up with rules like we had in the GTS/1 class 10 years ago then it wouldn't surprise me to see them getting down to well below 3:50 and even worrying the tail end of the LPM2 field (the Saleen S7-R set calss poll with a 3:52 in 2001, I'm sure modern cars could do better, especially since modern GTE cars can get to 3:53).



#18 STRFerrari4Ever

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Posted 29 January 2015 - 23:10

How fast do you reckon the Koenigsegg One:1 would go down the Mulsanne straight? It does 0-400km/h in 20 secs after all.

#19 Imateria

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Posted 29 January 2015 - 23:18

^Bollocks does it.



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#20 917k

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Posted 29 January 2015 - 23:25

A Porsche 918 did a 6.57 on the 'ring - and supposedly 6.48 on slicks so comparisons can be made with full blown racers times from the same circuit.



#21 GenJackRipper

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Posted 30 January 2015 - 02:00

How fast do you reckon the Koenigsegg One:1 would go down the Mulsanne straight? It does 0-400km/h in 20 secs after all.

It could be swedish patriotism but I really think it would do a great job. I've seen it live and I was also at Le Mans this summer and... I don't know. It would be a sight to see!

 

^Bollocks does it.

Well why not? If a Bugatti Veyron can reach that speed, why wouldn't a One:1?



#22 Brazzers

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Posted 30 January 2015 - 02:11

How fast do you reckon the Koenigsegg One:1 would go down the Mulsanne straight? It does 0-400km/h in 20 secs after all.

 

That isn't 100% accurate as it's a hypothetical speed. 

 

It could be swedish patriotism but I really think it would do a great job. I've seen it live and I was also at Le Mans this summer and... I don't know. It would be a sight to see!

 

Well why not? If a Bugatti Veyron can reach that speed, why wouldn't a One:1?

 

 

Because Koenigsegg have claimed such figures but haven't actually conducted test runs to see whether it is possible or not. No track is longer enough besides the VW one, which I am sure would not allow Koenigsegg to have a test run, so it remains a target until they actually achieve it. 



#23 Victor_RO

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Posted 30 January 2015 - 07:16

Bentley EXP Speed 8

 

The Bentley ran in LMGTP, the uber-GT1 class died in 1998 along with the production car requirement and LMGTP became basically closed-cockpit LMP1 with slight differences in restrictors, weight and tire size.  :)



#24 FPV GTHO

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Posted 30 January 2015 - 10:00

I think the closest realistic example would be the new Ferrari FXX based on the LaFerrari. But I don't think there's been any released track times.

#25 hittheapex

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Posted 30 January 2015 - 10:14

Funny, I was thinking about this yesterday. Back in the day, in Group C, save for one or two road cars, the race cars were clearly ahead on pure power and that's before we get to the really trick aerodynamics, suspension and sticky tyres.

 

Mark Blundell's famous 1990 lap at Le Mans was in a Nissan producing, various estimates, but around 1000bhp or more. The fastest road car in the world at that time, the Ferrari F40, had 471bhp.

 

Super saloons from 10 years ago had more power than that. Car makers have gone bonkers with horsepower. We're now at the point where road car horsepower outputs are being reduced to fit the regulations of the motorsport categories. Such a thing would have sounded ridiculous 10 years ago.

 

I think if the McLaren P1, LaFerrari and others were allowed the same modifications as the WEC racers-the sticky tyres, the more aggressive aerodynamics, etc, then they might get within a few seconds, but utlimately they were designed for the road, so I think they would be off the pace just because of that inherent compromise.



#26 Seanspeed

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Posted 30 January 2015 - 10:16

Depends on what you mean by 'track version'. Are these cars really designed to run at race tempo for 12-24 hours straight? How modified would they need to be? I'm sure you can modify anything enough to get it working for an endurance race but at what point would it no longer be considered the same car, but rather just a distant relative?

Edited by Seanspeed, 30 January 2015 - 10:19.


#27 Sash1

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Posted 30 January 2015 - 11:13

Toyota TS040, between 900 and 1000kg. 1000bhp max.

Konigsegg One1: 1360kg and 1360bhp.
McLaren P1 GTR is 1400kg and has 1000bhp

 

Konigsegg/P1 are heavier. Will use more fuel, more stress on the tires (slower tires or more wear) and especially brakes. The weight will work on all parts of the car, gearbox will be stressed more as well. I guess the LMP1 has a lower cog and higher downforce, which helps a lot in the corners. LMP1 should accelerate easier out of the corner and be able to brake much later, the sportcars will run a higher topspeed. So, my assumption is that the LMP1's will be quite a bit faster over a lap at LeMans. And considering the fuel usage, can do that for a longer time between stops than any of those super/mega/whatever sportcars. 

You can see it a bit when you look at LMP1 vs GT cars. Sometimes the GT's run pretty fast on the straights. But braking and cornering is loosing them a lot of time. I believe the Corvette C7.R weighs about 1250kg with fuel and driver and makes about 1000hp (factory entry at max setting). 



#28 STRFerrari4Ever

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Posted 30 January 2015 - 13:10

Toyota TS040, between 900 and 1000kg. 1000bhp max.
Konigsegg One1: 1360kg and 1360bhp.
McLaren P1 GTR is 1400kg and has 1000bhp

Konigsegg/P1 are heavier. Will use more fuel, more stress on the tires (slower tires or more wear) and especially brakes. The weight will work on all parts of the car, gearbox will be stressed more as well. I guess the LMP1 has a lower cog and higher downforce, which helps a lot in the corners. LMP1 should accelerate easier out of the corner and be able to brake much later, the sportcars will run a higher topspeed. So, my assumption is that the LMP1's will be quite a bit faster over a lap at LeMans. And considering the fuel usage, can do that for a longer time between stops than any of those super/mega/whatever sportcars.

You can see it a bit when you look at LMP1 vs GT cars. Sometimes the GT's run pretty fast on the straights. But braking and cornering is loosing them a lot of time. I believe the Corvette C7.R weighs about 1250kg with fuel and driver and makes about 1000hp (factory entry at max setting).


What do the Corvette's normally put out? 1000hp as the max setting has surprised me a bit, didn't think a GT car would be near that sort of output.

#29 Sash1

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Posted 30 January 2015 - 14:05

The client race version is around 500. But they claim a max of 1000. Not seen one on the dyno though. :)



#30 juicy sushi

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Posted 30 January 2015 - 14:18

At Le Mans the LMP1 prototypes (bit of a tautology there) would spank the hyper-cars. However, at certain tracks - twisty, not many long straights - I dare to wonder...

The difference would be greater as the superior downforce would make the gap even larger.



#31 juicy sushi

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Posted 30 January 2015 - 14:19

The client race version is around 500. But they claim a max of 1000. Not seen one on the dyno though. :)

Given the restrictors, more than 550 would be pretty much out of the question.  Unrestricted, perhaps 1000 is viable, but it's not something ever seen on track.



#32 eronrules

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Posted 30 January 2015 - 14:29

since we're talking about LaFerrari ... I saw this In top gear website ... some Italian student's (Daniele Pelligra) impression of a LMP1 car based on LaFerrari ... and I dare say it, it looks gorgeous :love:

 

http://www.topgear.c...etch-2014-06-26

 

some images

 

ferrari-lmp1-by-daniele-pelligra-21-520x

 

image-1.jpg

 

ferrari-lmp1-by-daniele--8e2a1a6,910,500

 

ferrari-le-mans-protorype-02.jpg



#33 ezequiel

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Posted 30 January 2015 - 16:59

Was the Zonda that ran Le Mans a while ago a factory effort or a private entry? Last supercar to run Le Mans. 

 

I do like the idea though. Especially with the LaFerrari, P1, and 918. All are hybrid cars. Seeing as the top prototype programs are running hybrid systems, the same idea could be applied to the GT field. Though like seen in the hybrid prototypes, it'd be a huge cost that only factory entries could really employ. 

 

Private entry from Carsport. Pagani had nothing to do with the development of that race version, as far as I'm concerned.



#34 Imateria

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Posted 30 January 2015 - 17:14

It could be swedish patriotism but I really think it would do a great job. I've seen it live and I was also at Le Mans this summer and... I don't know. It would be a sight to see!

 

Well why not? If a Bugatti Veyron can reach that speed, why wouldn't a One:1?

I was reffering more to the 20s since drag increases exponentially as you get faster, acceleration will slow down notably as you get closer to that speed.

 

The Bentley ran in LMGTP, the uber-GT1 class died in 1998 along with the production car requirement and LMGTP became basically closed-cockpit LMP1 with slight differences in restrictors, weight and tire size.  :)

Not quite. It was a case of same class, evolutions of the same cars (in most cases) but a new name. I'm glad the ACO got tired of having two separate classes for what was effectively the same thing and just lumped GTP and LMP1 together. This is largely just symantics though.

 

What do the Corvette's normally put out? 1000hp as the max setting has surprised me a bit, didn't think a GT car would be near that sort of output.

The road cars are about 600, the race cars around 500-550, the air restrictors would make anything substantially more impossible. Though I do remember when the class was at about 450hp.

 

Private entry from Carsport. Pagani had nothing to do with the development of that race version, as far as I'm concerned.

 

I thought the Pagani was run by Phip Alliot's Force One team, he did he sell it on to Carsport Holland for 03?


Edited by Imateria, 30 January 2015 - 17:15.


#35 JHSingo

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Posted 30 January 2015 - 17:15

I'm honestly amazed Koenigsegg still exist. How many cars do they even sell? I've never ever seen one.

 

But yeah, they wouldn't stand a chance. Not over one lap, nor 24 hours.



#36 proviz

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Posted 01 February 2015 - 09:39

I'm honestly amazed Koenigsegg still exist. How many cars do they even sell? I've never ever seen one.

 

But yeah, they wouldn't stand a chance. Not over one lap, nor 24 hours.

There's a curious analogy between Koenigsegg and that other Swedish enigma, Marcus Ericsson. I guess both cases prove that if you've got enough money to throw away it'll even buy you a pie in the sky.



#37 hittheapex

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Posted 01 February 2015 - 14:29

I'm honestly amazed Koenigsegg still exist. How many cars do they even sell? I've never ever seen one.

 

But yeah, they wouldn't stand a chance. Not over one lap, nor 24 hours.

Well they are a small supercar company. I've never seen a Bugatti Veyron or a McLaren F1 but they're out there somewhere...or in a lock up for 10 years maybe. There's an interesting documentary series on Koenigsegg called "Inside Koenigsegg." A lot of it focuses on the production of their supercars, but there are also some technological developments they have made that they are using in partnership with other car manufacturers.