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Blame aimed at Alonso for Ferrari's problems.


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#1 aramos

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Posted 30 January 2015 - 08:08

 

“If for three or four seasons in a row the car has the same problems, that means you are not developing in the right directions, and it’s the driver’s fault,”

 

“Alonso is a great race driver,” he said, “but not a good test driver. Each year, when he shook the car down, he said everything was perfect, then after a few months he began complaining. A real champion is the one who is able to manage the team.”

 

“Ferrari’s problem in the last few seasons,” claimed Forghieri, “was not having another Schumacher.”

http://www.grandprix...od-test-driver/


Edited by aramos, 30 January 2015 - 08:09.


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#2 f1RacingForever

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Posted 30 January 2015 - 08:21

Lol thank God he left this team. It gets harder and harder to defend this team. Maybe fans who have switched aren't so crazy. I'm starting to lean the other way myself.

#3 Reinmuster

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Posted 30 January 2015 - 08:25

He should blame Ferrari, not Alonso.


Edited by Reinmuster, 30 January 2015 - 08:26.


#4 JeePee

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Posted 30 January 2015 - 08:27

Forghieri hasn't worked at Ferrari for the last 35 years... Why does his opinion deserve an own topic?



#5 pusko

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Posted 30 January 2015 - 08:35

Hilarious. April fools!

#6 LuckyStrike1

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Posted 30 January 2015 - 08:36

All F1-drivers are worthless, the whole bunch of them! 



#7 ConsiderAndGo

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Posted 30 January 2015 - 08:51

Its easy for Ferrari to blame the guy who's left. Still, it's very bitter. (And of course, fundamentally wrong!)



#8 Zava

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Posted 30 January 2015 - 08:51

even though I think "drive around the problem" drivers may indeed have some of that side effect described, all I have to say is: (someone loyal to the) team says negative things about team's ex driver, shocker.


Edited by Zava, 30 January 2015 - 08:52.


#9 David Lightman

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Posted 30 January 2015 - 08:52

What a cock.



#10 learningtobelost

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Posted 30 January 2015 - 08:58

Its easy for Ferrari to blame the guy who's left. Still, it's very bitter. (And of course, fundamentally wrong!)

 

Ferrari aren't blaming him.  A guy who worked for Ferrari half a lifetime ago is blaming him. 



#11 TF110

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Posted 30 January 2015 - 09:04

We'll see. I wonder what happens when Ferrari start winning again. Will the same Alonso defenders say its just the car? Will we hear more stories like this? I cant wait for the excuses on both sides.

#12 ExFlagMan

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Posted 30 January 2015 - 09:06

Well they had to get round to it at some point as there is probably no-one left that has not already been blamed.

Ferrari seem to have faded somewhat over the last few years, much like the logo on my Ferrari 50th anniversary mug, but I blame the dishwasher for that!

#13 kosmos

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Posted 30 January 2015 - 09:09

Alonso the shitty test driver is to blame for shitty PU unit, broken and old wind tunnel, managment with zero political power and "run like headless chicken and cut heads" attitude, lack of ideas in the engineering side, early on also to blame por bad pit stops and strategy. Meanwhile he provides the same feedback as Kimi (Allison words), so Kimi must be a shitty test driver too.

 

 

 

 

We'll see. I wonder what happens when Ferrari start winning again.

 

 

People with half a brain will know that the million of changes done in the team worked and contributed.


Edited by kosmos, 30 January 2015 - 09:13.


#14 kamikaze1

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Posted 30 January 2015 - 09:13

Not even going to click on the link and give the page /adverts a "view". I really cannot fathom why journalists still question him. I thought after the Senna committed suicide opinion in 94/95 because Schumacher was beating him comment, one would expect he'd be blacklisted. What a muppet.

#15 TF110

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Posted 30 January 2015 - 09:15

Both drivers could give feedback but they choose which direction to develop the car. Which driver do they take more feedback from? Reminds me of Kimi and Juan Pablo's situation.

#16 ChrisF1MyLife

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Posted 30 January 2015 - 09:15

Interesting thought, often thought the same of Hamilton (and other drivers, so i dont get abuse for "bashing" him), seems to have stepped into 2 championship winning cars, but when it came to development, the car was useless in coming years (first championship anyway), so the coming seasons will be interesting.

 

(just my thoughts, no need for anyone to start defending Hamilton or Alonso to me, I dont care what you think, it's my opinion on the topic.)

 

Head many tales of Schumi and his "feel" in the car, in particular, a valve or filter or something hydraulic was replaced in a test session once, he came back and said somethings changed, its not the same, they were sure everything was the same, it was part for part, after investigation, it turned out the internal dimensions of the part, through which, fluid or air (i cant remember) flowed, was slightly different to the previous part and he felt this .... to a mere mortal like the rest of us it wouldne have been noticable. ..... No idea if this is a true story, pretty sure it is, but still, its a class story either way.



#17 ChrisF1MyLife

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Posted 30 January 2015 - 09:17

Well they had to get round to it at some point as there is probably no-one left that has not already been blamed.

Ferrari seem to have faded somewhat over the last few years, much like the logo on my Ferrari 50th anniversary mug, but I blame the dishwasher for that!

 

are you sure it wasnt Alonso that caused it to fade, maybe he was drinking from it too and his beard has worn down the glossy finish



#18 hittheapex

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Posted 30 January 2015 - 09:22

Forghieri should know better given his experience but maybe he's blinded by the same delusions of sacredness of the Ferrari name that the same people who fired Prost were.



#19 pdac

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Posted 30 January 2015 - 09:31

Teams don't progress and stay on top if there is a blame culture there. It appears to me that such a culture is now rife in Ferrari and I think they need to iradicate it if they want to pull themselves back. It's good for individuals to be critical about the team as a whole or even a department/group within the team. What is not good is when the work of a single individual is attacked by groups or other individuals. Once that happens those individuals feel alienated and work for the good of themselves and not for the good of the team.



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#20 Nonesuch

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Posted 30 January 2015 - 09:37

The thread title is stretching Forghieri's message somewhat, I think. Perhaps the feedback Alonso provided was indeed not as good as that which the team got from Schumacher. Who is to say? Forghieri is certainly in a better position than most of us to have heard the inside story.

 

At the same time it suggests a problem within the team that its technical staff is so dependent on the feedback of a driver. Ferrari's (handling) problems have been discussed ad nauseam in the press, so it wasn't as though the team was completely unaware what their cars lacked. That they've been playing catch-up since at least 2011 isn't just due to a perhaps disappointing level of driver feedback.

 

In any case; it will probably be best for Ferrari to get used to the idea of not having Schumacher around. Both the unlimited testing of his day and his exceptional talents made it a combination that we are unlikely to see again any time soon.



#21 Brazzers

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Posted 30 January 2015 - 09:39

Yes because Schumacher was so good that he helped Mercedes win the championship from 2010-2012 :stoned:

 

There is no such thing as developing driver, it's a myth nothing more.  Does he honesty believe Mercedes last season was a WDC/WCC car because Hamilton jumped ship? Ferrari's problems lie within the organisation. The lack of investment in the wind tunnel, the donkey PU... Again last time I checked Fred didn't complete his engineering degree in aerodynamic or mechanical engineering. He's basically talking about over 300 personnel in the team and laying the blame on one sole individual, it's not the drivers role to select the development path or characteristics of the car. 



#22 sopa

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Posted 30 January 2015 - 09:44

How good is anyone at testing and how much does it influence overall result, is pretty much a blind game for us fans. And we can only loosely rely on what is being said.

 

It reminds me of Jean Alesi. It is often stated that he was unlucky with career choices, but some people have also pointed out Alesi was poor with feedback and it didn't help his team's performance/development. How much of an influence did this really have, is anyone's guess.

 

It is clear though that we are talking about very small margins. Because if you have a team as excellent as Mercedes of 2014 or Red Bull-Renault of 2013, or Williams-Renault of 1992, the quality of the team will most likely far exceed any lack of driver contribution.


Edited by sopa, 30 January 2015 - 09:46.


#23 7MGTEsup

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Posted 30 January 2015 - 09:46

Ferrari are sliding back into the 80's by the sound of it. I seem to remember one French driver in 1991 had the gaul to lay the blame at Ferrari's feet.



#24 sopa

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Posted 30 January 2015 - 09:51

Forghieri hasn't worked at Ferrari for the last 35 years... Why does his opinion deserve an own topic?

 

Forghieri comes from an era, when arguably driver had a greater influence in car development. Which is somewhat logical, because back then teams were much smaller in terms of man-power, which means that relatively one person has a greater effect on the whole team!

 

Forghieri was also working with Lauda, and the latter has often been credited with "bringing Ferrari out of doldrums". How significant Lauda was in all of this, and what does Forghieri think about that? And how does this experience influence his current views?



#25 SenorSjon

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Posted 30 January 2015 - 09:52

Yes because Schumacher was so good that he helped Mercedes win the championship from 2010-2012 :stoned:

 

There is no such thing as developing driver, it's a myth nothing more.  Does he honesty believe Mercedes last season was a WDC/WCC car because Hamilton jumped ship? Ferrari's problems lie within the organisation. The lack of investment in the wind tunnel, the donkey PU... Again last time I checked Fred didn't complete his engineering degree in aerodynamic or mechanical engineering. He's basically talking about over 300 personnel in the team and laying the blame on one sole individual, it's not the drivers role to select the development path or characteristics of the car. 

 

Mercedes went bananas with investments from 2013 onwards, it was mentioned more than once they held to the RRA in 2010-2012. 



#26 Cesc

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Posted 30 January 2015 - 10:05

In Schumacher times Ferrari could put the car to do 1000Km a week at Fiorano.

Anyway, thank God Alonso left for the good of Ferrari then...


Edited by Cesc, 30 January 2015 - 10:10.


#27 Seanspeed

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Posted 30 January 2015 - 10:13

Ferrari are sliding back into the 80's by the sound of it.

Because of what an EX boss said? lol Ok man.

Seems a few people are taking this to be Ferrari's official stance or something.

Edited by Seanspeed, 30 January 2015 - 10:14.


#28 Gridfire

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Posted 30 January 2015 - 10:17

Ferrari are sliding back into the 80's by the sound of it. I seem to remember one French driver in 1991 had the gaul to lay the blame at Ferrari's feet.

 

Oh if only you had not revealed the nationality of the driver you were talking about and instead left 'gaul' misspelled to give us a clue, that would be an amazing line :p



#29 Ferrari2183

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Posted 30 January 2015 - 10:18

Yes because Schumacher was so good that he helped Mercedes win the championship from 2010-2012 :stoned:

 

There is no such thing as developing driver, it's a myth nothing more.  Does he honesty believe Mercedes last season was a WDC/WCC car because Hamilton jumped ship? Ferrari's problems lie within the organisation. The lack of investment in the wind tunnel, the donkey PU... Again last time I checked Fred didn't complete his engineering degree in aerodynamic or mechanical engineering. He's basically talking about over 300 personnel in the team and laying the blame on one sole individual, it's not the drivers role to select the development path or characteristics of the car. 

And yet, that very same Schumacher was part of the team which is now dominating. These things aren't done overnight... What you saw was improvements every year just like his Ferrari tenure.

 

Now I'm not saying that Alonso is to blame, what I'm saying is that Alonso was part of the team that failed.

 

Disclaimer - I'm neither a Schumacher or an Alonso fan.


Edited by Ferrari2183, 30 January 2015 - 10:45.


#30 kimster89

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Posted 30 January 2015 - 10:22

The only thing for which Alonso is to blame is that he delivered just good enough results with shitty cars, that ferrari hasitated to go into restructuring the team and hoped that this year is finally the year and it never arrived. I think Fernando's departute also reduces pressure to deliver a great car a bit.



#31 turssi

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Posted 30 January 2015 - 10:37

The one thing that went right when the two split was that the blaming game was not played.

The OP has nothing to do with either Fernando or Ferrari.

#32 turssi

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Posted 30 January 2015 - 10:38

The only thing for which Alonso is to blame is that he delivered just good enough results with shitty cars, that ferrari hasitated to go into restructuring the team and hoped that this year is finally the year and it never arrived. I think Fernando's departute also reduces pressure to deliver a great car a bit.


That's just bad management nothing to do with a driver giving his 100÷.

#33 Brazzers

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Posted 30 January 2015 - 10:43

And yet, that very same Schumacher was part of the team which is now dominating. These things aren't over done overnight... What you saw was improvements every year just like his Ferrari tenure.

 

Now I'm not saying that Alonso is to blame, what I'm saying is that Alonso was part of the team that failed.

 

Disclaimer - I'm neither a Schumacher or an Alonso fan.

 

Isn't that basically what i was referring to? The success or failure of a team cannot solely be attributed to one individual in particular a driver. 



#34 Spillage

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Posted 30 January 2015 - 10:45

It's interesting he should say that because according to Eddie Irvine, Schumacher wasn't much of a test driver either. Rather, Ferrari are missing a Rubens Barrichello :p

#35 Ferrari2183

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Posted 30 January 2015 - 10:47

Isn't that basically what i was referring to? The success or failure of a team cannot solely be attributed to one individual in particular a driver. 

I  was referring to this

 

Yes because Schumacher was so good that he helped Mercedes win the championship from 2010-2012

 

I actually think that Schumacher's contribution is underplayed. But that's just me... 



#36 yr

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Posted 30 January 2015 - 11:04

Funny thing is, I remember when Alonso left Mclaren and joined Lotus, most of his fans were saying that "Mclaren will go down because Hamilton is helpless without Alonso, and Lotus will be up there because Alonso will develop it" :p

 

I see that the tune has changed from Alonso-fans since then to a point where driver has no input on car development, not at the slighest. Hilarious.



#37 sopa

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Posted 30 January 2015 - 11:11

It's interesting he should say that because according to Eddie Irvine, Schumacher wasn't much of a test driver either. Rather, Ferrari are missing a Rubens Barrichello :p

 

Or they are missing... drumroll... Luca Badoer! The secret to ultimate success! ;) Give Luca a hundred laps around Fiorano and all problems are solved! ;)



#38 Nonesuch

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Posted 30 January 2015 - 11:12

It's interesting he should say that because according to Eddie Irvine, Schumacher wasn't much of a test driver either. Rather, Ferrari are missing a Rubens Barrichello :p

 

Rubens was an important - and sometimes overlooked - part of Ferrari's success. :up:

 

But all those hours Schumacher drove around Fiorano weren't to get him used to using a sequential gearbox, so to say.



#39 chumma

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Posted 30 January 2015 - 11:13

lol.



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#40 Sash1

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Posted 30 January 2015 - 11:15

If Alonso complained about the car mid season, why didn't they fix it in time for the next season then?



#41 jjcale

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Posted 30 January 2015 - 11:23

IMO drivers do make a difference... lets use the best development driver on the grid for example.

 

How many races have Macca won since LH left?  How many races did Merc win before LH joined? obviously that is not even mainly down to LH but to say that those are two random facts would be foolish.

 

Why did Merc need to do a special analysis to figure out why he flogged NR in Mal by over seconds whilst using less power and tyres despite it being only his first race after major regs changes and NR having had much more testing time and the advantage of knowledge gained fro almost the entire race distance in Aus? if its all down to the clever engineers NR should have won Mal 2014 comfortably.

 

In 2009 Macca F'ed with the new regs but by the end of the season they had probably the best car - who was doing the bulk of the testing that year?

 

Despite having built a good car under most years of the last set of regs Macca started from scratch every year and had to rely on the quality of their drivers to bail them out when the risks of starting from scratch instead of developing incrementally (as Redbulld did) did not pay off. Another interesting coincidence is that whilst LH was with them the managed to produce cars that were there or thereabout but once he left they made two dogs in a row for the first time in years - despite no major changes in the reg.

 

I can remember in 2012 after it had become clear that LH was leaving for Merc a straight line aero test needed to be done urgently on a particular race weekend. But there was a little problem. I was raining and the aero test needed do be done on slicks at a minimum speed of about 100mph to get good data.... so who did Macca send out to risk his neck to get the right data for them, the driver who was leaving them or the one who was staying? I think you can guess as you would probably have made the same choice if you were them.

 

 

Now compare that record to probably the worst development driver in F1 currently - at least among the drivers with decent careers:

 

We do not need to go over the last two diabolical seasons that Macca has endured with him as lead driver.... and the fact that the big wigs at Macca wanted rid from 2014 but Fred would not come and then in 2015 his old chums at Honda saved his bacon after Ron had already decided to cut him loose.

 

But what about 2012 when he was being lapped by his team mate after going down a wrong set up path .... for months!! or 2009 when he took a "monster of a car" at the start of a season down a development path that by August had him asking on the radio "how did we make this car so bad?"

 

Or last couple of years at Honda when they produced utter shite for cars ..... coincidentally with JB as lead driver.... but nothing to do with him, right? Only engineers matter.

 

 

...... So yes, it is possible that FA has some responsibility for what has happened to Ferrari..... It is a lazy to simply unquestioningly accept the received wisdom that it is only the teams of engineers that are responsible for car performance when there is some evidence to the contrary that needs to be examined.
 



#42 Buttoneer

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Posted 30 January 2015 - 11:29

The quotes do raise an interesting point though, which is that a driver who quickly adapts to a cars problems isn't necessarily going to drive development quite so quickly. Think about yourself for a moment and what you might do when you realise that you can work with a flawed system while your colleagues cannot. Would you push for change or would you just bask in the better sales figures?

Specific change need not even be something the driver would push for. Alonso just happily getting on with the job, hoping for the car to develop, but then eventually getting irritated at the slow pace of change. I don't think the comments reflect a problem with Alonso but with the way the team respond to him.

#43 Buttoneer

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Posted 30 January 2015 - 11:32

<snip>

Correlation is not causation, but you knew that.

#44 7MGTEsup

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Posted 30 January 2015 - 11:58

Because of what an EX boss said? lol Ok man.

Seems a few people are taking this to be Ferrari's official stance or something.

 

Because Ferrari couldn't find their arse with both hands in the 1980's and were badly mis managed. Just like now or do I need to draw you a diagram?



#45 ViMaMo

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Posted 30 January 2015 - 12:05

Ferrari have been out developed by Red Bull when fighting for the crown, handing the crown to them. So FA might have been happy with the car initially, then unhappy to lose out to RBR.

Ferrari cars developed a chronic performance problem in recent years, poor traction out of slower corners and unstable while entering and exiting slow corners. 



#46 discover23

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Posted 30 January 2015 - 12:50

Never heard of the guy. Next

#47 Logiso

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Posted 30 January 2015 - 12:54

Funny thing is, I remember when Alonso left Mclaren and joined Lotus, most of his fans were saying that "Mclaren will go down because Hamilton is helpless without Alonso, and Lotus will be up there because Alonso will develop it" :p

 

I see that the tune has changed from Alonso-fans since then to a point where driver has no input on car development, not at the slighest. Hilarious.

 

There is hardly any testing anymore, now they rely on telemetry and simulations much more than what a driver says. That's a fact, not a fanboy claim. Also the fact there is very limited testing compared to the past means a driver can't have the same day to day impact on the team as in Schumacher's era. Obviously the driver does still have some input, he is part of the team just like anyone else. But it's also been said that Schumacher wasn't very good at giving feedback because he was able to drive around the problems, and it was something he had to work on. As for what may or may not have been said in 2008, it was 7 years ago get over it. Also considering how Renault developed into a top car by the end of 08 I hardly think it's the best example to give about Alonso's feedback anyway.

 

Ferrari's problems lie heavily in the blame culture, the team that steadily improved from 96 into the 2000s defended each other even when there was a good reason to criticise, except for some criticisms of Goodyear by Schumacher. Fast forward to now and multiple sackings, constant finger pointing and the media frenzy seeming to affect the team in a negative way.


Edited by Logiso, 30 January 2015 - 12:58.


#48 jstrains

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Posted 30 January 2015 - 12:57

I would say just 1 word but I would be probably banned from the forum... :smoking:

 

Let's see how Vettel will manage...



#49 ForzaGTR

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Posted 30 January 2015 - 12:58

Ferrari would have been a complete laughing stock without Alonso over the last few years. Considering the budget and resources they have built rubbish cars that Alonso has somehow dragged onto the podium where I suspect no one else could. I guarantee they'll miss him dearly this year.

#50 superden

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Posted 30 January 2015 - 13:11

Yes, years of sub-par chassis and engine design had nothing to do with the lack of overall success at Ferrari. The years of RBR producing better chassis had nothing to do with it. The underperforming design team had nothing to do with it. Years of p*ss poor, often comedic, management had nothing to do with it.

Yes, it was all the fault of one driver.

One driver who has now left.

Pilot error, 'for sure' ... what a tool.