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Alonso, Schumacher, Briatore and Valentino Rossi are on the HSBC list of tax evaders


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#51 FullWets

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Posted 09 February 2015 - 20:01

There is a legal difference between tax evasion and tax avoidance. The former is illegal, the second is... legally kind of within the letters of the law.

 

Alonso and his fellow millionaires are of course 'avoiding' taxes by 'living' in countries like Switzerland (while still pandering to the nationalistic impulse of sports fans), but to claim he has acted illegally is going to require some proof.

 

There is a legal difference between tax evasion and tax avoidance. The former is illegal, the second is... legally kind of within the letters of the law.

 

Alonso and his fellow millionaires are of course 'avoiding' taxes by 'living' in countries like Switzerland (while still pandering to the nationalistic impulse of sports fans), but to claim he has acted illegally is going to require some proof.

 

Were avoiding, since he is now living in his homeland in contrast to 90% of the paddock :wave:


Edited by FullWets, 09 February 2015 - 20:07.


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#52 Murl

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Posted 09 February 2015 - 20:03

   Alo, Flav and other drivers are smart folks and have the means to optimize their tax burden.   I wished I could to the same (btw, I don't like Flav as an F1 character).  

 

Flavio was a crook, plain and simple.
 



#53 rmpugh

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Posted 09 February 2015 - 20:08

To put it into perspective, whenever you go to France on a day trip and stock up on cheap booze and fags, you are commiting the act of tax avoidance. Who thinks this act should be prosecuted?



#54 tmekt

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Posted 09 February 2015 - 20:15

Why aren't you all voluntarily paying more taxes than you absolutely need to then? You are literally keeping money from sick children, disabled, veterans, and other people who need it more than you!

 

This is completely legal and I don't think the mere act of moving away from your place of birth and switching banks counts as morally questionable either (except in some overly nationalistic sense, I guess). Is it that if you happen to be born in the UK you automatically owe a half of every paycheck you get to the 64M people that live there, for the rest of your life, no exceptions?


Edited by tmekt, 09 February 2015 - 20:16.


#55 Nonesuch

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Posted 09 February 2015 - 20:22

Were avoiding, since he is now living in his homeland in contrast to 90% of the paddock :wave:

 

Thanks for the correction. :up:



#56 tomjol

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Posted 09 February 2015 - 20:31

If infrastructure services were provided by other "private" companies they would cost fraction of what governments charge taxpayers to provide those services (all around the world).  So, the infrastructure argument is very weak but believable by honest common folks who already are paying more than their fair share (link).   

 

Oh behave! Cheaper public services through privatisation...yeah, sure!



#57 Atreiu

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Posted 09 February 2015 - 20:31

Off topic, income shouldn't be taxed. It's illogical. You work, you earn, end of story. Consumption, on the other hand, is where all taxes should be. You literally pay for your choices (instead of your work) and help fund the imense freedoms you enjoy while keeping the infrastructure behind it working, etc, etc.


Edited by Atreiu, 09 February 2015 - 20:34.


#58 showtime

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Posted 09 February 2015 - 20:32

To be more precise with the correction he is living in Dubai but his residence is in Spain so he pay his taxes in Spain, including those for the money he has in other countries. 



#59 Fastcake

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Posted 09 February 2015 - 20:42

Tax evasion is illegal. Tax avoidance is common sense.

 

Tax avoidance is often tax evasion yet to be found illegal. Plenty of people have been hit by HMRC when their supposedly legal scheme was proven to be tax evasion.



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#60 NoSanityClause

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Posted 09 February 2015 - 20:49

To be more precise with the correction he is living in Dubai but his residence is in Spain so he pay his taxes in Spain, including those for the money he has in other countries. 

To be even more precise, when he decided to return to Spain as a country of residence he voluntarily paid the corresponding taxes that amounted to USD 80M. That's probably as much tax money paid as the total tax money paid  by all other sportmen/women combined together :p

 

Alonso paying his taxes in Spain: http://www.marca.com...1366231073.html

Alonso pays 80M to return home: http://www.autoevolu...turn-35578.html



#61 Knot

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Posted 09 February 2015 - 21:01

It's not tax evasion or avoidance if you live in a rational country that doesn't tax you if you aren't living there.

 

All this is just pure fliff-flaff.



#62 Fontainebleau

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Posted 09 February 2015 - 21:11

If I understood it correctly, then, the problem here is the Falciani list is being presented by some media as a list of tax evaders when it is simply a list of account holders. A number of those could be tax evaders, but others could equally be perfectly within their respective tax regulations.



#63 anbeck

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Posted 09 February 2015 - 21:19

Off topic, income shouldn't be taxed. It's illogical. You work, you earn, end of story. Consumption, on the other hand, is where all taxes should be. You literally pay for your choices (instead of your work) and help fund the imense freedoms you enjoy while keeping the infrastructure behind it working, etc, etc.

 

Probably this thread is rapidly nearing closing-time by the mods, but I just cannot not comment on this. The problem with consumption tax is that it is highly unfair as it does not take into account wealth at all. People who earn very little will pay, relatively speaking, a higher amount of their income on taxes than those who earn their money somewhere in the EU/US whatever, but then have the luxury choice of consuming in a place that has low VAT. And if you wanted to replace income tax completely and keep the same level of service running, you'd come up with funny numbers like paying 5 dollars of tax for a small bottle of water...  :rolleyes:

 

If it were feasible, I could live with a scheme like this: the first, say, $30.000 of consumption per year per capita are tax free, and then it progressively rises with categories of up to $100.000, $500.000 and above.... Problem is it would take away anonymity, because you'd have to register all of your purchases...

 

 

On-topic again: 

 

Irony #1 is that many F1 people channel their money through Switzerland - the country in which a F1 race is outlawed (or did they overturn in in the mean time?).

 

Irony #2 is that many F1 people only have a job, because stupid countries like Germany (and others) SUBSIDIZE circuits and/or F1 races directly with public money! And probably the rest of F1 is kept afloat with money from state owned companies (from Maldonado's seat to Petrobras, Petronas, etc...). So please stop whining about states, because otherwise there wouldn't be any race at all.



#64 showtime

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Posted 09 February 2015 - 21:21

If I understood it correctly, then, the problem here is the Falciani list is being presented by some media as a list of tax evaders when it is simply a list of account holders. A number of those could be tax evaders, but others could equally be perfectly within their respective tax regulations.

 

Exactly.



#65 Collective

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Posted 09 February 2015 - 21:28

From some guy on Reddit:

 

 

Genuinely never really been bothered by this sort of stuff.

As Jimmy Carr said: 'my accountant asked if I'd like to pay less tax, and I said yes'.

 

Yup. Sums it up nicely.



#66 Fastcake

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Posted 09 February 2015 - 21:38

If I understood it correctly, then, the problem here is the Falciani list is being presented by some media as a list of tax evaders when it is simply a list of account holders. A number of those could be tax evaders, but others could equally be perfectly within their respective tax regulations.

 

It should be stated that the reputable media outlets that broke this story made it quite clear, naturally, only to identify those who had been evading taxes, while not accusing the rest of any wrongdoing.

 

How the likes of the Mail have chosen to report this story is a different matter.



#67 Jvr

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Posted 09 February 2015 - 23:07

I find it interesting that Alonso's moving back to Spain date in  2010 with media comments of making tax paying a virtue, is a funny co-incidence with the date that the media reports France shared the captured data with the tax authorities in other countries.

 

In the Guardian story it is also told that in most of countries cases based on the leaked accounts, frequently the settlements with tax authorities have been made out of public.



#68 OvDrone

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Posted 09 February 2015 - 23:23

I couldn't care less with what they choose to do with their money.



#69 Juan Kerr

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Posted 10 February 2015 - 00:04

I think its disgusting how much rich people have to pay for tax in the UK, not sure about how it is everywhere else but I know in Britain once you get above a certain salary amount they nearly double the tax percentage on you. That's wrong.

If you earn a £million a year for example you take home £540K That's shocking.


Edited by Juan Kerr, 10 February 2015 - 00:07.


#70 SlickMick

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Posted 10 February 2015 - 00:26

Almost anybody who has a reasonable amount of money will be in some sort of tax avoidance/evasion scheme, it makes me sick!


Not as sick as it makes me when I see my accountant's fees. :-)

As for Alonso and the others - this really does require further investigation - notwithstanding the purely financial side, how can so many people purposely decide to live in the most boring country on the planet?

#71 oetzi

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Posted 10 February 2015 - 00:31

Flavio was a crook, plain and simple.

Neither plain nor simple.

Edited by oetzi, 10 February 2015 - 00:32.


#72 Lurb

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Posted 10 February 2015 - 00:33

I think its disgusting how much rich people have to pay for tax in the UK, not sure about how it is everywhere else but I know in Britain once you get above a certain salary amount they nearly double the tax percentage on you. That's wrong.

If you earn a £million a year for example you take home £540K That's shocking.

 

I don't know about the particular case of the UK, but that's probably wrong.

Those kinds of tax rates are usually "marginal": the higher percentage applies only to the excess amount, not the whole.

So let's say for simplicity that the regular tax rate is 25% and it doubles over 1 million. Then if you get 1,100,000 you take home 800,000 (750k + 50k) not 550,000



#73 ClubmanGT

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Posted 10 February 2015 - 00:41

I don't know about the particular case of the UK, but that's probably wrong.

Those kinds of tax rates are usually "marginal": the higher percentage applies only to the excess amount, not the whole.

So let's say for simplicity that the regular tax rate is 25% and it doubles over 1 million. Then if you get 1,100,000 you take home 800,000 (750k + 50k) not 550,000

 

This, progressive rates are called progressive for a reason.

 

Although the more you earn, the higher the proportion of your income that is taxed at a higher rate, which means your overall marginal rate goes up. But under these systems, your total marginal tax rate is never going to equal the highest tax rate because of the effect of the lower income tax brackets. 

 

Also the Swiss tax thing isn't anything new in Formula One. 



#74 Clatter

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Posted 10 February 2015 - 01:18

The big problem with racing drivers and tax is the more fundamental one that they earn in at least 20 countries.  If you take into account their advertising rights, they earn in probably every country bar North Korea.  So how much do you tax them and where?  Driver X who is paid £10m p.a. and happens to be German will only get 1 race in Germany so should he pay German tax on the whole lot, or on the £500k notional pay for the one race?

Is that correct? Just because they race in different countries doesn't mean the money was earned there. Many of us will have traveled to different countries for business purposes, but our money would still be paid and taxed in our country of residence. 



#75 Fastcake

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Posted 10 February 2015 - 01:19

Neither plain nor simple.

No, it's pretty simple. Briatore has multiple criminal convictions from the Italian courts for fraud and tax evasion, and of course was thrown out of F1 for crashgate. That's easily enough to call him a crook.

And that's before you get into all the things in and out of F1 he's been implicated in, but in those cases you have to start adding allegedly...

Edited by Fastcake, 10 February 2015 - 01:21.


#76 SlickMick

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Posted 10 February 2015 - 03:42

Is that correct? Just because they race in different countries doesn't mean the money was earned there. Many of us will have traveled to different countries for business purposes, but our money would still be paid and taxed in our country of residence.


This idiotic proposal was widely reported in the press a year or two ago, mainly in relation to golfers and "entertainers". Some EU countries were pushing for it quite hard, but I don't think anything became formally enacted.

#77 travbrad

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Posted 10 February 2015 - 03:53

Im totally fine with Alonsos behaviour on this one.

 

I hate taxes.

 

Your dream nation existed for a couple decades, Somalia.

 

I think they recently re-introduced taxes though so it won't be a Utopian tax-free paradise anymore.   :(

 

Alonso is one of the few F1 drivers who actually moved back to his home country though and paid a ton of taxes because of it.  He's actually one of the lesser offenders when it comes to F1 drivers evading taxes.  I'm sure he still has lawyers/accountants figuring out how to pay the smallest amount possible in Spain, but at least he is paying something to his home country.



#78 SlickMick

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Posted 10 February 2015 - 04:07

I don't know about the particular case of the UK, but that's probably wrong.
Those kinds of tax rates are usually "marginal": the higher percentage applies only to the excess amount, not the whole.
So let's say for simplicity that the regular tax rate is 25% and it doubles over 1 million. Then if you get 1,100,000 you take home 800,000 (750k + 50k) not 550,000


Juan is not wrong.
The top rate kicks in at 150,000k, not the 1m you, let's say for simplicity, plucked out of your .....
As you say, you don't know about the UK, which he specifically referenced in his post.

Edited by SlickMick, 10 February 2015 - 04:20.


#79 HPT

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Posted 10 February 2015 - 05:53

Your dream nation existed for a couple decades, Somalia.

 

I think they recently re-introduced taxes though so it won't be a Utopian tax-free paradise anymore.   :(

 

Alonso is one of the few F1 drivers who actually moved back to his home country though and paid a ton of taxes because of it.  He's actually one of the lesser offenders when it comes to F1 drivers evading taxes.  I'm sure he still has lawyers/accountants figuring out how to pay the smallest amount possible in Spain, but at least he is paying something to his home country.

 

Everyone tries to pay as little taxes as possible, I dare say even those on a moral high horse posting negative stuff about 'tax avoidance' (not talking about you, just in general).

 

According to reports, Alonso has paid to the tune of USD80 million to move back to Spain. He has paid enough taxes for this lifetime and next, regardless of how much he earns. Of course, tax laws don't work that way and a person is taxed according to their earnings. In which case, if there are clever and legitimate ways to lower taxes then we can't fault anyone for trying to do it. Can't have it both ways, right?



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#80 Galko877

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Posted 10 February 2015 - 07:05

Don't they ALL live in Switzerland or Monaco to avoid the higher taxes in their own countries? Seems like just the usual journalistic sensationalism.



#81 Brazzers

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Posted 10 February 2015 - 08:56

I'll forward this to my tax office to take notice....they for sure didn't know it ;)


It's not exactly like this. But if you are not Swiss citizen, and have your residence in Switzerland, you can negotiate (so to say) a flat tax based on an estimate of your living standard. This is not possible in all Cantons of Switzerland though.
But surely it's not a bad choice for wealthy foreigners. Tina Turner and Shania Twain for instance like it, as well as many others.
Many countries espscially in Europe have such high taxes that they should not wonder about tax evasion. But this is a political discussion...

 

I should have phrased it better in saying the Swiss have relatively low taxes instead of 'no taxes'. 



#82 FirstWatt

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Posted 10 February 2015 - 09:04

If I understood it correctly, then, the problem here is the Falciani list is being presented by some media as a list of tax evaders when it is simply a list of account holders. A number of those could be tax evaders, but others could equally be perfectly within their respective tax regulations.

Sums it up perfectly.
But makes too much sense, and no headlines, as they are based on enviousness.

Unfortunately enviousness eats brain. As does greed.

#83 aguri

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Posted 10 February 2015 - 09:18

I think its disgusting how much rich people have to pay for tax in the UK, not sure about how it is everywhere else but I know in Britain once you get above a certain salary amount they nearly double the tax percentage on you. That's wrong.

If you earn a £million a year for example you take home £540K That's shocking.

 

No it's really not. It is far more economically efficient that money is taxed from wealthy individual and used to fund the government, because wealthy individuals can only spend so much.

 

A person earning 50K a year will spend 80+% of their income to get by. A person earning 540K will only spend maybe 50% of it.

 

If the government didn't tax the wealthy the economy would tank very, very hard, because it is the poor and middle class masses who fuel businesses through their consumption of everyday goods. 



#84 Gilles4Ever

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Posted 10 February 2015 - 09:27

This thread has run it's course, it is now a discussion about tax and has no place in Racing Comments.

 

Should you wish to have a discussion about tax please do so in Paddock Club.