34 replies to this topic

[GenJackRipper]

Since Rebellion Racing is a LMP1-team but from what I can understand, all that differs is that they're not a factory team like Audi, Porsche etc.

How much does the budget differ between them and in your opinion, can a non-factory team ever challenge a factory team for the all out victory at Le Mans?

[Victor_RO]

Gigantic difference, probably on the order of factory budgets being at least 8-10 times larger. And no, under the current situation non-factory teams will not be able to properly challenge factory teams.

[Prost1997T]

Rebellion's budget is probably in the $10 million range, with Audi rumoured to spend in excess of $100 million.

[Peat]

Under the current regs, the Rebellion's & Bykolles's of the world would be better off campaigning for a 'LMP2+' category. It just seems so futile. 

Sportscar racing always goes in cycles, we are at (or near to) the top of the curve at present, but I do expect that the manufacturers will outspend themselves and leave at a moments notice. Then we'll go through a  few years where we realise why we need people like Rebellion.

[Elba]

Gigantic difference, probably on the order of factory budgets being at least 8-10 times larger. And no, under the current situation non-factory teams will not be able to properly challenge factory teams.

You are right apart from freaky circumstances (like the 2011 Audi crashes) the privateers don't stand a chance against the factory teams.

I would not like the rules to be tinkered with to artificially make LMP1 private teams more competitive.

[Sash1]

They can challenge them every year. 24 hours, mechanical failure, crashes, rain, blown tires, running out of fuel, there is always a small chance. Pescarolo came close in 2005, 2nd, 2 laps down on Audi and 2006 again 2nd this time 4 laps. But with 4 manufacturers present it has become a lot more difficult.

[FullThrottleF1]

I like the fact there are privateers in LMP1, it gives us the underdogs to root for. Remember, private teams can win overall, Strakka won the Nurburgring in 2010 with an LMP2!

[Victor_RO]

I like the fact there are privateers in LMP1, it gives us the underdogs to root for. Remember, private teams can win overall, Strakka won the Nurburgring in 2010 with an LMP2!

 

Hungaroring.  But back then we still had the monster LMP2 cars, 2010 was the last year of the LMP2 formula that was winning races overall against Audi in the ALMS in 2006-2008, and on that day at the Hungaroring the LMP1 field had a shocker in terms of mechanical failures. Combined with the HPD ARX-01c being a full 3 SECONDS faster than any other LMP2 car in qualifying...

[Imateria]

The chances of a privateer LMP1 team of ever challenging the manufacturers under current rules is non existent. The technology allowed under current rules means you need a big budget to make best use of it and there's no off the shelf ERS available that comes close to matching what Toyota, Porsche and Audi have, those three manufacturers could litereally spend the first hour of Le Mans sitting in the garage and will still win by several laps they're that much faster.

 

As much as I love the current cars, I do miss the early to mid 2000's when a Pescarolo, Creation Autosportif, Racing for Holland Dome or Oreca Dallara could challange the Audi R8's on pace and give them a real run for their money.

[FerrariV12]

In the long term privateer teams can - if they do a good job in terms of punching above their weight - always aim to get a manufacturer deal themselves. Joest won back to back Le Mans in a non-factory Porsche LMP1 and a couple of years later were running the works Audi team. Similarly ORECA ran their private Dallaras and then built their own car after acquiring Courage, and now are involved with the Toyota effort. It never happened for Pescarolo but it wouldn't have been outside the realms of possibility for Peugeot to link up with them when they returned, but some manufacturers will want to stay in-house.

 

Obviously Joest and ORECA at the time they were privateers had a much longer track record than Rebellion currently do, hence the "long term" bit

[JHSingo]

I remember a year at Le Mans (must have been '12 or '13) where despite having a near faultless run for the entire race, a Rebellion car missed out on the final step of the podium to a much delayed manufacturer entry.

 

Even when there were only two top manufacturers entered, it was very unlikely, so now there's going to be four with a combined total of eleven cars between them (at Le Mans)...I bet they'd be delighted if they even finished in the top five.

[TF110]

They lack resources. If they had a bit more, they could challenge. But imo they really need more fuel allowed in flow and tank size + lower weight, like sub 800kg.

[dau]

They lack resources. If they had a bit more, they could challenge. But imo they really need more fuel allowed in flow and tank size + lower weight, like sub 800kg.

So BoP? Nah, i'll pass. I'd love to see them compete with the factory teams, but not like this.

[ToxicEnviroment]

Under the current regs, the Rebellion's & Bykolles's of the world would be better off campaigning for a 'LMP2+' category. It just seems so futile. 

Sportscar racing always goes in cycles, we are at (or near to) the top of the curve at present, but I do expect that the manufacturers will outspend themselves and leave at a moments notice. Then we'll go through a  few years where we realise why we need people like Rebellion.

 

Rebellions and Bykolleses

 

Just sayin'

[Disgrace]

Gigantic difference, probably on the order of factory budgets being at least 8-10 times larger. And no, under the current situation non-factory teams will not be able to properly challenge factory teams.

 

How do these budgets compare down the catagories? Are there lower category factory efforts with higher budgets than privateer entries in higher categories? Does higher category necessarily mean higher cost? Is there anywhere to read up on it?

[Imateria]

How do these budgets compare down the catagories? Are there lower category factory efforts with higher budgets than privateer entries in higher categories? Does higher category necessarily mean higher cost? Is there anywhere to read up on it?

As with any series, the big money goes on development to improve the cars, and the only other catagory that allowes for that at anything like the level of LMP1 is the GTE-Pro class. I doubt Chevy, Ferrari, Porsche, Aston Martin or BMW are spending anything like what Audi and even Toyota are but I expect it's well clear of Rebellion's budget.

 

LMP2 is weird one in that it's an open class but the cars are cost capped to keep budgets down so only Onroak/Ligier and Strakka-Dome will have sizable budgets as they're developing the cars but even then I expect it's at most similar to what Rebellion are spending to have ORECA develop the R-One. GTE-Am is limited to year old cars so I expect they have a similar budget to the LMP2 teams.

[KingTiger]

I wish the LMP1 manufacturers were required to sell their cars to privateers if they could pay. 

[TF110]

So BoP? Nah, i'll pass. I'd love to see them compete with the factory teams, but not like this.

Lol. Shows you dont know much about these cars then. The class they are/were in was called LMP1-L for light, as in lighter weight. They were already allowed to run at a higher fuel flow rate and originally the minimum weight was 850kg while the factory hybrid teams run 870kg. The teams all agreed to let the lmp1-L cars run 800kg, but the Kolles (lotus) couldnt even reach below 850kg. So while you complain "no bop", it already took place and had little effect. Rebellion couldnt keep pace even though they were running 50kg lighter than initially proposed. So I dont get the logic of your statement. A few years ago, lmp2 cars like the Porsche Spyder and Acura ARX were at 775kg while lmp1 was 900kg+. They fought for wins in alms. The same should apply here. If theyre in the "light(weight)" subclass, they need to be light.

[CoolBreeze]

Audi's budget is only that much? I was expecting in the 250-300 mil range honestly. 

[dau]

Lol. Shows you dont know much about these cars then. The class they are/were in was called LMP1-L for light, as in lighter weight. They were already allowed to run at a higher fuel flow rate and originally the minimum weight was 850kg while the factory hybrid teams run 870kg. The teams all agreed to let the lmp1-L cars run 800kg, but the Kolles (lotus) couldnt even reach below 850kg. So while you complain "no bop", it already took place and had little effect. Rebellion couldnt keep pace even though they were running 50kg lighter than initially proposed. So I dont get the logic of your statement. A few years ago, lmp2 cars like the Porsche Spyder and Acura ARX were at 775kg while lmp1 was 900kg+. They fought for wins in alms. The same should apply here. If theyre in the "light(weight)" subclass, they need to be light.

There is no LMP1-L/H anymore as you seem to have noticed yourself. There is only one LMP1 class with a BoP between hybrids and non-hybrids and i'm okay with that, as it's a pretty uneffective one which doesn't skew the competition too much. But if you want to keep adjusting the weight limits until a private non-hybrid is able to 'challenge' the expensive factory cars for the win than that's a whole different story. Not to mention that the manufacturers wouldn't allow regulations like that anyway. A Rebellion threatening to beat one of their precious hybrids on pace because it's allowed to run at 100kg less? I don't think so.

 

I can see a point for BoP like that if there were so few cars in class they had to force some competition to keep it interesting. But that's not the case anymore. We have eight factory cars in LMP1 this season, there should be more than enough competition there. 

[Imateria]

There is no LMP1-L/H anymore as you seem to have noticed yourself. There is only one LMP1 class with a BoP between hybrids and non-hybrids and i'm okay with that, as it's a pretty uneffective one which doesn't skew the competition too much. But if you want to keep adjusting the weight limits until a private non-hybrid is able to 'challenge' the expensive factory cars for the win than that's a whole different story. Not to mention that the manufacturers wouldn't allow regulations like that anyway. A Rebellion threatening to beat one of their precious hybrids on pace because it's allowed to run at 100kg less? I don't think so.

 

I can see a point for BoP like that if there were so few cars in class they had to force some competition to keep it interesting. But that's not the case anymore. We have eight factory cars in LMP1 this season, there should be more than enough competition there. 

The real worry is what happens when all the manufacturers decide to leave, which at some point they will, do we really want the top class to consist of 2 cars, both from Rebellion?

[FerrariV12]

The real worry is what happens when all the manufacturers decide to leave, which at some point they will, do we really want the top class to consist of 2 cars, both from Rebellion?

 

It is a worry but hopefully things would then naturally shift in that, for instance I imagine the likes of OAK and other top LMP2 runners are in LMP2 because they figure it's better to aim for class victory than spend a little more money to be trailing around in 10th or 11th in class even if they might finish higher overall. If outright victory became a serious possibility (which it would with no factories), then an LMP1 program starts to make more sense.

Edited by FerrariV12, 13 February 2015 - 12:25.

[GenJackRipper]

Well if factory LMP1 cease to exist, then perhaps a Hypercar class of P1GTR, FXXK, One:1 etc. will come along.

[Victor_RO]

Well if factory LMP1 cease to exist, then perhaps a Hypercar class of P1GTR, FXXK, One:1 etc. will come along.

 

There was a class along those lines, it was called 1994-1998 GT1. Dominated by racing cars that were veeeeeeeery thinly-disguised as road cars, homologation rules and a dominant season by Mercedes in '98 made the whole thing explode in everyone's face. And since once bitten twice shy, no, I'm pretty sure a hypercar class is never going to happen again.

[dau]

The real worry is what happens when all the manufacturers decide to leave, which at some point they will, do we really want the top class to consist of 2 cars, both from Rebellion?

I don't think that's going to happen. There will always be at least one manufacturer as long as Le Mans is relevant to them. And i'd expect some P2 teams to step up in that case as well. It's not like they're not interested, there's just no point for them in spending lots of money to still fight for 5th/6th at best.

[metz]

When Rebellion beat any of the factory cars, they celebrate like champions.

They know when they did well and the fans know they did well when they challenge.

Rebellion has outstanding drivers that do miracles with that equipment. Fans know this.

Fake equalization formulas will raise doubt as to the real effort and results earned.

Don't change a thing. We know the cards are stacked. We cheer for the underdogs.

[TF110]

The silliest part of this discussion is forumers are up in arms over private teams running lightweight, or more fuel flow, but the aco ran it past ALL lmp1 teams and they had no problem with it. Without a hybrid system in place, do you think the factory cars would run the same pace if they were 800kg? No, and apparently neither do they. The sport knows that a healthy private class is beneficial. Btw, only the nomenclature is changed this season. Not the seperate ruleset. Theres still possibility they will have their own podium and trophies.

Edited by TF110, 14 February 2015 - 07:48.

[DanardiF1]

I wish the LMP1 manufacturers were required to sell their cars to privateers if they could pay.

Even non-hybrid versions as well... If the main cost is in the powertrain, allow your chassis to be used by customers. The car will be lighter without the hybrid stuff as well.

[dau]

The silliest part of this discussion is forumers are up in arms over private teams running lightweight, or more fuel flow, but the aco ran it past ALL lmp1 teams and they had no problem with it. Without a hybrid system in place, do you think the factory cars would run the same pace if they were 800kg? No, and apparently neither do they. The sport knows that a healthy private class is beneficial. Btw, only the nomenclature is changed this season. Not the seperate ruleset. Theres still possibility they will have their own podium and trophies.

Yes, i'd suspect there's a fairly strong possibility of that happening. It's part of the 2015 Sporting Regulations. Also, of course the LMP1 teams didn't have a problem with the BoP so far. Because it's just not effective enough to have a serious impact on their results. Try asking them about keeping to BoP up the private teams until they have a chance to compete for the win. I bet they would be delighted.

 

And the silliest part of this "discussion" is you talking about "forumers up in arms" when exactly one person here dared to voice his opinion on your idea of more BoP for the private teams. Which would be me.

[MrFondue]

Audi's budget is only that much? I was expecting in the 250-300 mil range honestly. 

How? I mean, what would they spend all that dosh on?

[DanardiF1]

How? I mean, what would they spend all that dosh on?

 

R&D...

 

I'd say they spend north of $150m a year, but VW and Audi obviously have seen a benefit to it...

 

I'd be surprised if Toyota's budget tops $100m though, Japan have been very tight in controlling their budget and making sure they get the maximum bang for buck, but again all that money is going on R&D really...

Edited by DanardiF1, 14 February 2015 - 19:27.

[Imateria]

How? I mean, what would they spend all that dosh on?

Seriously? What the hell do you think they spend it on with such a degree of freedom in the rules and having to develop both the chassis and engine? Sandwiches?

[August]

I'd like to see privateer LMP1s as the lead class in regional series, ELMS, TUSC.

[TF110]

Yes, i'd suspect there's a fairly strong possibility of that happening. It's part of the 2015 Sporting Regulations. Also, of course the LMP1 teams didn't have a problem with the BoP so far. Because it's just not effective enough to have a serious impact on their results. Try asking them about keeping to BoP up the private teams until they have a chance to compete for the win. I bet they would be delighted.

And the silliest part of this "discussion" is you talking about "forumers up in arms" when exactly one person here dared to voice his opinion on your idea of more BoP for the private teams. Which would be me.

Im talking about people having a bop problem in general and anyone who uses racing forums to say its such a bad thing according to certain teams. If you wanna single yourself out thats your call! But, you specifically, I wasn't speaking of.

My idea would be 770kg for private teams with no hybrid. Thatd be the car weight of one minus the total system like Toyota's capacitor etc. Im not sure what the fuel flow rate will be, but 10% higher total fuel power per lap than '8mj class petrol' would be less than what the factory cars total power is.

Edited by TF110, 15 February 2015 - 06:54.

[Dolph]

Annual budget is one thing. But I suspect Audi has invested and built up a significant amount of fixed assets over the past 15 years needed for designing cars as well as have a worked in structure of competent people.