37 replies to this topic

[hittheapex]

Here is the list of all the points scorers ranked according to results and my criteria for plotting those results as a ranking. Many FAQs can be answered in this thread: http://forums.autosp...0-how-i-did-it/

 

Meanwhile, I hope you find this interesting and I welcome any comments, positive or negative, I have a thick skin I can take it! Especially, please comment if I have missed a points scoring driver.

 

1. Juan Manuel Fangio

2. Alberto Ascari

3. Jim Clark

4. Current driver

5. Jackie Stewart

6. Michael Schumacher

7. Ayrton Senna

8. Alain Prost

9. Current driver

10. Stirling Moss

11. Current driver

12. Emerson Fittipaldi

13. Giuseppe Farina

14. James Hunt

15. Damon Hill

16. Mika Hakkinen

17. Alan Jones

18. Nelson Piquet

19. Jose Froilan Gonzalez

20. Gilles Villenueve*

21. Niki Lauda

22. Mike Hawthorn

23. Luigi Fagioli

24. Nigel Mansell

25. Phil Hill

26. Jochen Rindt

27. Jack Brabham

28. Current driver

29. Dan Gurney

30. Graham Hill

31. Jacky Ickx

32. Jody Scheckter

33. Tony Brooks

34. Peter Collins

35. John Surtees

36. Chris Amon

37. Mike Parkes

38. Bruce McLaren

39. Juan Pablo Montoya

40. Stefan Bellof*

41. Luigi Musso

42. Mario Andretti

43. Peter Revson

44. Tony Brise*

45. Denny Hulme

46. Mark Donohue*

47. Ludovico Scarfiotti

48. Wolfgang von Trips

49. Keke Rosberg

50. Ronnie Peterson

51. Chris Irwin

52. Oscar Galvez**

53. Dorino Serafini**

54. Richie Ginther

55. Carlos Reutemann

56. Jacques Villenueve

57. Current driver

58. Current driver

59. Francois Cevert*

60. Mark Webber

61. Clay Regazzoni

62. David Coulthard

63. Rene Arnoux

64. Peter Arundell

65. Pedro Rodriguez

66. Elio de Angelis

67. Current driver

68. Paul Frere

69. Jacques Laffite

70. Gerhard Berger

71. Rubens Barrichello

72. Richard Attwood

73. Cliff Allison

74. Vittorio Brambilla

75. Thierry Boutsen

76. Elie Bayol

77. Pierluigi Martini

78. Robert Kubica

79. Piero Taruffi

80. Carlos Pace

81. Andre Pilette

82. Patrick Depailler

83. Ricardo Rodriguez

84. Riccardo Patrese

85. Heinz-Harald Frentzen

86. Jean-Pierre Beltoise

87. Current driver

88. Ralf Schumacher

89. Didier Pironi

90. Ken Wharton

91. John Watson

92. Vic Elford

93. Lorenzo Bandini

94. Patrick Tambay

95. Jean Behra

96. Current driver

97. Felice Bonetto

98. Michele Alboreto

99. Stefan Johansson

100. Brian Redman

101. Eddie Irvine

102. Jean Alesi

103. Erik Comas*

104. Louis Chiron

105. Alan Brown

106. Eugenio Castellotti

107. Roberto Mieres

108. Tom Pryce

109. Christian Danner*

110. Jean-Pierre Jabouille

111. Jackie Lewis

112. Hans-Joachim Stuck

113. Nick Heidfeld

114. Alex Caffi

115. Tony Maggs

116. Jochen Mass

117. Karl Kling

118. Innes Ireland

119. Mika Salo

120. Luigi Villoresi

121. Stuart Lewis-Evans

122. Sergio Mantovani

123. Martin Brundle

124. Bruno Giacomelli

125. Mauricio Gugelmin

126. Jim Hall

127. Olivier Gendebien

128. Giancarlo Fisichella

129. Mike Spence

130. Derek Warwick

131. Emmanuel “Toulo” de Graffenried

132. Roberto Moreno

133. Eddie Cheever

134. Maurice Trintignant

135. Allessandro Nannini

136. Mike Hailwood

137. Philippe Alliot

138. Timo Glock

139. Silvio Moser*

140. Marc Surer*

141. Derek Bell*

142. Current driver

143. Joakim Bonnier

144. Johnny Herbert

145. Jarno Trulli

146. Ivan Capelli

147. Harald Ertl

148. Mark Blundell

149. Cesare Perdisa

150. Bertrand Gachot

151. Carlos Menditeguy

152. Rudi Fischer

153. Giancarlo Baghetti

154. Jo Siffert

155. Derek Daly

156. Stefano Modena

157. Olivier Panis

158. Harry Schell

159. Heikki Kovalainen

160. Yves Giraud-Cabantous

161. Teo Fabi

162. Ron Flockhart

163. Piers Courage

164. Christian Fittipaldi*

165. Current driver

166. Bob Anderson

167. George Follmer

168. Gijs Van Lennep*

169. Karl Wendlinger

170. Ronnie Bucknum

171. Raymond Sommer

172. Jean-Pierre Jarier

173. Gunnar Nilsson

174. Rolf Stommolen

175. Carroll Shelby

176. Prince Bira

177. Andrea de Cesaris

178. Reine Wisell

179. Mauro Baldi

180. Manfred Winkelhock*

181. Arturo Merzario

182. Piercarlo Ghinzani*

183. John Love

184. Masten Gregory

185. Umberto Maglioli

186. Onofre Marimon

187. Gerhard Mitter

188. Lucien Bianchi

189. Consalvo Sanesi

190. Roy Salvadori

191. Hernando da Silva Ramos

192. Robert Manzon

193. Bob Bondurant

194. Nicola Larini*

195. Jonathan Palmer

196. Howden Ganley

197. Alexander Wurz

198. Henri Pescarolo

199. Philippe Streiff

200. Current driver

201. Eugene Chaboud

202. Jean-Christophe Boullion

203. Francesco “Paco” Godia

204. Louis Rosier

205. Willy Mairesse

206. Hans Hermann

207. Marc Gene

208. Eric Bernard

209. Ignazio Giunti

210. Carel Godin de Beaufort

211. Jackie Oliver

212. Cristiano da Matta

213. JJ Lehto

214. Tim Schenken

215. Johnny Servoz-Gavin

216. Alfonso de Portago

217. Neville Lederle*

218. Gianni Morbidelli

219. Luis Perez-Sala

220. Current driver

221. John Taylor*

222. Allan McNish

223. Peter Gethin

224. Jos Verstappen

225. Pedro Diniz

226. Shinji Nakano

227. Philippe Etancilin

228. Peter Whitehead

229. Paul di Resta

230. Ukyo Katayama

231. Renzo Zorzi

232. Takuma Sato

233. Aguri Suzuki

234. Pedro de la Rosa

235. Luca Badoer

236. Michael Andretti

237. Current driver

238. Andrea de Adamich

239. Current driver

240. Nelson Piquet Jr.

241. Trevor Taylor

242. Danny Sullivan

243. Giorgio Scarlatti

244. Henry Taylor

245. Satoru Nakajima

246. Current driver

247. Ricardo Zonta

248. Gabriele Tarquini

249. Bruno Senna

250. Toranosuke Takagi

251. Pedro Lamy

252. Martin Donnelly

253. Fabrizio Barbazza

254. Chico Serra*

255. Emanuele Pirro

256. Wilson Fittipaldi Jr.

257. Vitaly Petrov

258. Olivier Grouillard

259. Eliseo Salazar*

260. Johnny Dumfries

261. Jan Magnussen

262. Brian Henton

263. Gerino Gerini

264. Giulio Cabianca*

265. Antonio Pizzonia

266. Sebastien Buemi

267. Chico Landi

268. Christian Klien

269. John Miles

270. Lella Lombardi

271. Johnny Cecotto

272. Kazuki Nakajima

273. Hector Rebaque

274. Jaime Alguersuari

275. Ricardo Rosset

276. Ricardo Zunino

277. Justin Wilson*

278. Sebastien Bourdais

279. Slim Borgudd*

280. Current driver

281. Alex Zanardi

282. Julian Bailey

283. Francois Hensault

284. Siegfried Stohr

285. Zsolt Baumgartner

286. Horace Gould

287. Vitantonio Liuzzi

288. Ralph Firman

289. Current driver

290. Tiago Monteiro

Edited by hittheapex, 14 February 2015 - 23:50.

[john aston]

Sorry, but any formula which places Messrs Rindt , Lauda , Nilsson and D Hill(and many others)  where they are in this list is utterly  flawed.

[hittheapex]

Sorry, but any formula which places Messrs Rindt , Lauda , Nilsson and D Hill(and many others)  where they are in this list is utterly  flawed.

I have to admit I too was a little surprised at Rindt's ranking but then again he's not exactly among unesteemed company. Lauda is hurt by his 1985 season and had he retired at the end of 1984, would have been a few places further up the list. As I wrote in the "how I did it" thread though, there is a margin of error here, too. I am grateful to you John for drawing attention to Nilsson. He is that low owing to his short career, and given his performances against teammates, does appear to be a gross anomaly that I missed. I am not going to go back and type all the names out again, but he slots in at 85 now, but still hard to accurately rank any driver who has done only 2 seasons.

Edited by hittheapex, 15 February 2015 - 11:52.

[Tim Murray]

One ranking that particularly grates with me is Jo Siffert at 154, behind Giancarlo Baghetti, and more than 70 places down on the likes of Elie Bayol and Andre Pilette.

 

 

[hittheapex]

One ranking that particularly grates with me is Jo Siffert at 154, behind Giancarlo Baghetti, and more than 70 places down on the likes of Elie Bayol and Andre Pilette.

 

 

Could you elaborate please? This isn't about me proving anybody right or wrong, but one thing I like about rankings threads is that it can open up debate and bring new information about drivers exploits to light. Siffert was well before my time and most anecdotes of him I know come from his career in sportscars and it would be interesting to know more about his time in F1.

[opplock]

Siffert, a two times Grand Prix winner, is also ranked below Silvio Moser who probably only saw Siffert during a Grand Prix when being lapped. I have seen some strange "rankings" but this one is in a league of its own.  

[Tim Murray]

For a great part of his F1 career Siffert drove for poorly-funded private teams, so there was always the need to drive conservatively, with lower engine rev limits, to preserve car and engine for the next race and the all-important start money. Things became a little easier when Rob Walker took him on board, but Rob was still a private entrant and the need to preserve the car was always there. In spite of this he beat Jim Clark two years on the trot at Enna, won the 1968 British GP, and was lying third in the championship after the first four championship races of 1969.

 

Leaving aside his disastrous 1970 season with March (where March had bitten off far more than they could chew and were unable to provide him with a decent car), 1971 was the first year where he could show what he could do as a works driver for a leading Grand Prix team, and see what he achieved then.

Edited by Tim Murray, 15 February 2015 - 15:28.

[Richard Jenkins]

Could you elaborate please? This isn't about me proving anybody right or wrong, but one thing I like about rankings threads is that it can open up debate and bring new information about drivers exploits to light. Siffert was well before my time and most anecdotes of him I know come from his career in sportscars and it would be interesting to know more about his time in F1.

Elie Bayol was - at best - a capable midfield runner in Grand Prixs. To rank him 76th greatest Formula 1 driver and way above Seppi... is bizarre.
That's the obvious one that stood out for me and I can well understand Tim's confusion and incredulity

[bill p]

Mario Andretti at No.42, a World Champion and Indy winner, ranked behind Chris Amon (36) and Mike Parkes (37) - crazy..........

[Vitesse2]

Elie Bayol was - at best - a capable midfield runner in Grand Prixs. To rank him 76th greatest Formula 1 driver and way above Seppi... is bizarre.
That's the obvious one that stood out for me and I can well understand Tim's confusion and incredulity

The ones which jumped out at me were Oscar Galvez at 52 - on the strength of one guest drive for Maserati to fifth place on a circuit he probably knew like the back of his hand - and Dorino Serafini at 53 - for a one-off drive in which he handed over his car to Ascari well before half distance.

 

Serafini was without doubt a great bike racer - but four wheels were not his forte. Galvez: superb in Turismo Carretera. Single seaters - not so much.

 

Personally, I'd have excluded any driver who didn't take the start ten times - you can't go any higher, because that would omit a GP winner. But even that would still leave Slim Borgudd rated above Horace Gould.

[scheivlak]

Sorry, but any formula which places Messrs Rindt , Lauda , Nilsson and D Hill(and many others)  where they are in this list is utterly  flawed.

Not to mention Luca Badoer better than Sebastien Bourdais, Slim Borgudd better than Alex Zanardi, Ronnie Bucknum (sure, a pretty good sportscar driver!) better than Gunnar Nilsson or Zsolt Baumgartner better than Vitantonio Liuzzi (and no, I'm not one of those Liuzzi fans).....

[hittheapex]

Mario Andretti at No.42, a World Champion and Indy winner, ranked behind Chris Amon (36) and Mike Parkes (37) - crazy..........

To be fair, Chris Amon has been ranked close to or above Andretti by veteran pundits before IIRC and Parkes did well in his limited outings in F1 before his career was cut short by injury.  As I wrote in the FAQs, there is also a margin of error of around 5 positions in the top 50. All 3 drivers are within 6 positions of each other, which in a group of 290 is virtually nothing.

Edited by hittheapex, 16 February 2015 - 01:36.

[hittheapex]

Not to mention Luca Badoer better than Sebastien Bourdais, Slim Borgudd better than Alex Zanardi, Ronnie Bucknum (sure, a pretty good sportscar driver!) better than Gunnar Nilsson or Zsolt Baumgartner better than Vitantonio Liuzzi (and no, I'm not one of those Liuzzi fans).....

 

Somebody else drew my attention to Nilsson, he was an anomaly that slipped through, I should have looked at his performance against teammates more closely because he was one whose career was cut short. I haven't typed them all out again, but if I were to he would be at 85. Like a couple of others, I would direct you to the "how I did it" thread, which explains that there is a margin of error of about 5 positions in the top 50 and about 10 positions from the 100th position downwards.

[hittheapex]

The ones which jumped out at me were Oscar Galvez at 52 - on the strength of one guest drive for Maserati to fifth place on a circuit he probably knew like the back of his hand - and Dorino Serafini at 53 - for a one-off drive in which he handed over his car to Ascari well before half distance.

 

Serafini was without doubt a great bike racer - but four wheels were not his forte. Galvez: superb in Turismo Carretera. Single seaters - not so much.

 

Personally, I'd have excluded any driver who didn't take the start ten times - you can't go any higher, because that would omit a GP winner. But even that would still leave Slim Borgudd rated above Horace Gould.

 

That's interesting, I only awarded Serafini the half points but I didn't know that Ascari had driven the bulk of the race. Setting a minimum 10 starts threshold would be helpful in hindsight, but I wanted to see how close to the mark this could get without doing that. Pretty far off in the case of Galvez and Serafini it seems. Can you tell me more about Borgudd and Horace Gould please? There is not much out there on these two drivers.

[john aston]

It just doesn't work. Whatever methodology is used , and however it is justified in the eyes of its creator it is just plain wrong. But there again it never could have been right - the only way to do this is to present objective and simple data , such as total points scored and /or total wins. Those figures cannot be argued with- even though they give strange results too. Brambilla was not and never could be a better driver than Amon and I don't think he would have held a candle to Tony Brise , had he lived longer. But all we can do -and should do- is discuss the merits of who we like and why and not fall into the trap of thinking some daft formula will give credible results . Lots of work has gone into this but sadly it only takes the most cursory perusal to realise that even if the creator thinks his maths are right the results are palpably wrong. Well done for trying but  doing this is as impossible as 'rating' Elvis , Hendirix , Cliff Richard, Mozart and Adele in order  using a formula .The answer is clearly Hendrix    .  

[Vitesse2]

That's interesting, I only awarded Serafini the half points but I didn't know that Ascari had driven the bulk of the race. Setting a minimum 10 starts threshold would be helpful in hindsight, but I wanted to see how close to the mark this could get without doing that. Pretty far off in the case of Galvez and Serafini it seems. Can you tell me more about Borgudd and Horace Gould please? There is not much out there on these two drivers.

There are good summaries of both Borgudd's and Gould's careers at Historic Racing - Borgudd was reasonably good in lower formulae and European Champion in trucks, but in F1 he was essentially a pay driver in an era where there were many such. That his one half-way decent result came in an ATS is more an indication that he had profited from the retirement of others than that he had any great talent. He finished sixth in the 1981 British GP, but had started 21st. Both Renaults, both Ferraris, Piquet's Brabham, Jones' Williams, de Cesaris' McLaren and de Angelis in the only Lotus that started were all eliminated. That's eight drivers and cars who would normally have finished ahead of him!

 

Big 'Orrice - 'The Gonzalez of the West Country' - was one of a vanished breed: privateers living out of the back of their vans who raced for fun and starting money, when championship points didn't really mean much. Prize money was a bonus.

[hittheapex]

It just doesn't work. Whatever methodology is used , and however it is justified in the eyes of its creator it is just plain wrong. But there again it never could have been right - the only way to do this is to present objective and simple data , such as total points scored and /or total wins. Those figures cannot be argued with- even though they give strange results too. Brambilla was not and never could be a better driver than Amon and I don't think he would have held a candle to Tony Brise , had he lived longer. But all we can do -and should do- is discuss the merits of who we like and why and not fall into the trap of thinking some daft formula will give credible results . Lots of work has gone into this but sadly it only takes the most cursory perusal to realise that even if the creator thinks his maths are right the results are palpably wrong. Well done for trying but  doing this is as impossible as 'rating' Elvis , Hendirix , Cliff Richard, Mozart and Adele in order  using a formula .The answer is clearly Hendrix    .  

 

I agree with all you wrote except for this part. I would argue that just as rankings can be skewed by any number of things such as personal bias, flawed criteria or just plain old uncertainty, so too are results skewed by differences in car performance and bad luck. I think both rankings and the raw numbers have their virtues and their flaws.

 

Perhaps one day there will be a miracle supercomputer that gives us the definitive answer, I will be sad if that ever does happen. If there was a definitive answer the fun of arguing the toss with your mates about different drivers, teams and races would disappear overnight.A large part of my motivation for constructing the rankings was to try and learn more. I certainly have learned more not by the rankings as such, but by opening up the debate. There were a few dozen drivers I had never heard of despite my interest in the history of the sport and I probably wouldn't have learned of them or some of the anecdotes in this thread otherwise.

[D28]

Few enthusiasts would argue over the first 20 drivers on the list, maybe just the ranking of some of them. However, very few would rank Damon Hill at # 15.. This places him above 3 time champions Piquet, Lauda and Brabham. 15 places ahead of his father, 20 above Surtees and a whopping 27 positions above Mario Andretti. This begs the question of why Frank Williams and Patrick Head failed to renew his contract in 1997, if they could have known he would be ranked 15th on an all time F1 driver's list.

 

As for Horace Gould, he contested 14 WC GPs, with a best finish of 5th in the 1956 British race, good for 2 points.

Edited by D28, 16 February 2015 - 16:19.

[Vitesse2]

Damon's career is one of those which always skews lists such as this. He didn't race F1 for long, but spent four of his eight years (or seven if you discount Brabham!) at a front-running team and even when his career went into decline he still managed the occasional decent finish and one win. At one point - I think it was at about the end of 1994 or early 1995 - his wins to starts ratio was ahead of the likes of Clark, Fangio and Ascari. Had he quit at the end of 1996 he would have had 21 wins from 67 races - a better record in percentage terms than Jackie Stewart (27 from 99).

 

As for Frank and Patrick - they'd signed Frentzen months before. It was just that nobody - especially Damon - actually knew that he was on his way out.

[Glengavel]

I cannot think of anyone currently racing who would outrank Stewart, even including the obvious candidate.

[bill p]

To be fair, Chris Amon has been ranked close to or above Andretti by veteran pundits before IIRC and Parkes did well in his limited outings in F1 before his career was cut short by injury.  As I wrote in the FAQs, there is also a margin of error of around 5 positions in the top 50. All 3 drivers are within 6 positions of each other, which in a group of 290 is virtually nothing.

I think you have glossed over Mario's career achievements in a most comprehensive manner!!

[john aston]

Damon will forever  be the enigma; it is too easy and glib to say 'well he had the best car, so of course he won lots of Grands Prix'. There are plenty of instances of people being in the same- or similar - position who didn't win anything - or very little. Mass in the McLaren, Dave Walker in the Lotus , Johansson  in McLaren and Ferrari , Cheever in Renault , Magnussen (pere) and poor old Zanardi performed way below what was expected and none of these guys was without excellent results elsewhere. Damon's problem - and his defining and most endearing trait- was that he was not only very smart , but also prone to self doubt. A thicker driver isn't - most really do believe that they are as good as anybody , despite all evidence to the contrary. Damon's drive at Suzuka 94 was as good as any I have seen - when he was on it few compared ..  

[Vitesse2]

I think you have glossed over Mario's career achievements in a most comprehensive manner!!

Exactly the same point - in reverse - was made regarding Gurney, Phil Hill and Ginther in the America's Top 10,000 of the 20th Century thread. Mario's achievements across the Big Pond dwarf his F1 record - even allowing for his World Championship.

[ensign14]

Not to mention Luca Badoer better than Sebastien Bourdais, Slim Borgudd better than Alex Zanardi, Ronnie Bucknum (sure, a pretty good sportscar driver!) better than Gunnar Nilsson or Zsolt Baumgartner better than Vitantonio Liuzzi (and no, I'm not one of those Liuzzi fans).....

 

To be fair, based on their F1 results, why would you not rate Borgudd above Zanardi?  On the basis that Borgudd nicked a point in an ATS, I'd've rated him capable of getting into the top six at least once in a GP-winning car.

[hittheapex]

I think you have glossed over Mario's career achievements in a most comprehensive manner!!

Not at all, this is an F1 rankings, not a motorsport rankings. Andretti was a wonderful driver with very few peers that can compare to what he has achieved in different motorsport series, not least his winning races in no less than five decades. In F1 too he achieved a lot but so too did many others. I'm sorry if you're upset with his "low" ranking but when rankings are put together according to a formula, there isn't any "glossing over" or otherwise without introducing subjectivity and bias. It may turn out results that are disagreeable, but that's another issue.

[hittheapex]

Few enthusiasts would argue over the first 20 drivers on the list, maybe just the ranking of some of them. However, very few would rank Damon Hill at # 15.. This places him above 3 time champions Piquet, Lauda and Brabham. 15 places ahead of his father, 20 above Surtees and a whopping 27 positions above Mario Andretti. This begs the question of why Frank Williams and Patrick Head failed to renew his contract in 1997, if they could have known he would be ranked 15th on an all time F1 driver's list.

 

As for Horace Gould, he contested 14 WC GPs, with a best finish of 5th in the 1956 British race, good for 2 points.

 

I think Sir Frank or Patrick later said they regretted replacing Hill with Frentzen, but yes I'm sure that they would disagree with Hill's ranking on this list, almost certainly preferring Mansell (as a driver, not as a man, as Sir Frank famously said). Sir Frank has also made clear many times his partiality to Alan Jones.

[bill p]

Not at all, this is an F1 rankings, not a motorsport rankings. Andretti was a wonderful driver with very few peers that can compare to what he has achieved in different motorsport series, not least his winning races in no less than five decades. In F1 too he achieved a lot but so too did many others. I'm sorry if you're upset with his "low" ranking but when rankings are put together according to a formula, there isn't any "glossing over" or otherwise without introducing subjectivity and bias. It may turn out results that are disagreeable, but that's another issue.

 

 

I reckon your "formula" needs an overhaul if it places Chris Amon & Mike Parkes (both excellent drivers) above Mario Andretti especially when your "formula" is based on Formula 1 - your "formula" needs reminding that Mario was World Champion and won Grand Prix for Lotus and Ferrari.  Chris Amon had plenty of near misses in Ferrari and Matra and Mike Parkes's career was cut short but no Grand Prix wins between them makes me doubt how your "formula" can accurately rank drivers

[hittheapex]

I reckon your "formula" needs an overhaul if it places Chris Amon & Mike Parkes (both excellent drivers) above Mario Andretti especially when your "formula" is based on Formula 1 - your "formula" needs reminding that Mario was World Champion and won Grand Prix for Lotus and Ferrari.  Chris Amon had plenty of near misses in Ferrari and Matra and Mike Parkes's career was cut short but no Grand Prix wins between them makes me doubt how your "formula" can accurately rank drivers

I think you may have forgotten or missed earlier in the thread where i wrote there is a margin of error of approximately 5 places for the top 50, because the end totals were very tight in that group. If we bumped Andretti up by 3 and the others down by 3, you would have Andretti ahead of Parkes and Amon. Even if we didn't, a spread of six places in 290, is 2% of the list. It's virtually nothing. It's not an exact science as I explained in detail in my other thread. Understanding that is the key to understanding why I don't see the problem with where Andretti is, but it's still interesting to read your comments, Bill.

Edited by hittheapex, 18 February 2015 - 01:39.

[jeffbee]

I know it doesn't take much to confuse and baffle me these days, but this list really doesn't help.

 

Firstly,  Jo Bonnier and Johnny Herbert (143 & 144) both had successful careers in F1 and won races.  For that reason I'm surprised they are ranked below such luminaries as  Philippe Alliot, Eddie Cheever, Olivier Gendebien, Jim Hall and of course Sergio Mantovani!

 

Peter Arundell ahead of Pedro Rodriguez?  Don't think so!

 

I'm sure we could all go on forever picking the list to pieces, and never agree.  I've resisted the temptation to question the positioning of several GP winners, who are below people drivers who would never win a race.

 

Hittheapex: Nice try, but historical angle will always create problems.

[bill p]

..........Understanding that is the key to understanding why I don't see the problem with where Andretti is, but it's still interesting to read your comments, Bill.

I am puzzled why you can't see the problem why a World Champion with many Grand Prix wins is placed behind Amon and Parkes who only won non-Championship Formula 1 races, once each if my memory serves me correctly.

Unfortunately or fortunately you might say, It is unlikely that I shall return to this thread

Good luck with your project, Bill P

[zakeriath]

If we are talking formula one, where are all the South African drivers, John Love, Dave Charlton, Ian Scheckter etc

[D28]

If we are talking formula one, where are all the South African drivers, John Love, Dave Charlton, Ian Scheckter etc

Check carefully-John Love # 183.

[Tim Murray]

These rankings obviously take no account of non-championship F1 races, otherwise there might indeed be mention of Charlton, Keizan, Ian Scheckter et al. However, there is Neville Lederle at #217 ...

[D28]

These rankings obviously take no account of non-championship F1 races, otherwise there might indeed be mention of Charlton, Keizan, Ian Scheckter et al. However, there is Neville Lederle at #217 ...

A quick look at the methodology suggests WC points were used in the rankings, and that these were adjusted back to include placing up to 8th place. Since Charlton finished 7th at the 67 South African GP he would seem to qualify; Scheckter would not.

But hitteapexex can answer these points better than anyone.

[hittheapex]

A quick look at the methodology suggests WC points were used in the rankings, and that these were adjusted back to include placing up to 8th place. Since Charlton finished 7th at the 67 South African GP he would seem to qualify; Scheckter would not.

But hitteapexex can answer these points better than anyone.

Hi D28 and Tim Murray, appreciate the comments. I used the numbers for the top 8 but short of going through the results of every single Grand Prix, rather than working from historical lists of points scorers, a few drivers such as Charlton slip through the net as they don't appear on those lists. I figured the easiest way to solve this problem would be to wait for people like yourselves to name the few drivers that were missing. Although I am slightly confused because the results for the 1967 South African Grand Prix list Charlton as not classified.

[D28]

Hi D28 and Tim Murray, appreciate the comments. I used the numbers for the top 8 but short of going through the results of every single Grand Prix, rather than working from historical lists of points scorers, a few drivers such as Charlton slip through the net as they don't appear on those lists. I figured the easiest way to solve this problem would be to wait for people like yourselves to name the few drivers that were missing. Although I am slightly confused because the results for the 1967 South African Grand Prix list Charlton as not classified.

OK I see Charlton did finish 7th,  completing 67 of 80 laps, presumably  not enough to be classified. As no points were available, probably mattered little at the time, but if points are to be awarded down to 8th,  it might. Anyway your decision.

Edited by D28, 18 February 2015 - 02:37.

[Vitesse2]

OK I see Charlton did finish 7th,  completing 67 of 80 laps, presumably  not enough to be classified. As no points were available, probably mattered little at the time, but if points are to be awarded down to 8th,  it might. Anyway your decision.

Classification rule at the time was 90% of race distance, whether still running or not - except at Monaco, who stuck with 50% for some years. Can't remember when they changed.

[zakeriath]

South Africa ran its own F1 championship for many years up until 75.