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Renault considering to buy team again [merged]


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#1 Timstr11

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Posted 21 February 2015 - 07:21

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/117747

 

So Renault is considering to buy a team as they realize they made a mistake selling Enstone.

Designing chassis and engine in complete unison should always have performance benefits.

It's also a reflection of their works relationship with RedBull which is apparently not delivering what they hoped (see earlier discussion on that subject). 

Redbull also has a different vision from Renault about the engine future of F1.

 

So which teams could be eligible and available?

 

Lotus would be the best. Needless to explain why, as we all know Enstone's Renault history. A team with pedigree. And with recently modernized wind tunnel and CFD facilities, they're a well kitted team as well.

 

Sauber is next, but they're a team with less potential than Lotus, outside of motorsport valley where there's easier access to skilled engineers.

 

The highly rated Bob Bell is has been hired to investigate possibilities.

 

I don't see any other credible team they could target.


Edited by Timstr11, 21 February 2015 - 08:09.


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#2 kpastri

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Posted 21 February 2015 - 07:29

There are reports for a very long time now that Force India is about to collapse (if it hasn't collapsed already). Could be a suitable target



#3 Timstr11

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Posted 21 February 2015 - 07:41

There are reports for a very long time now that Force India is about to collapse (if it hasn't collapsed already). Could be a suitable target

Force India would require too much investment to bring them up to a front running level.

 

They have an outdated wind tunnel.

They've outsourced many of their engineering activities, loosing those engineering capabilities in the process. For example, they don't design their own gearbox.

They've had McLaren providing services for years and now it's Mercedes with the complete drivetrain.. 



#4 EvilPhil II

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Posted 21 February 2015 - 07:50

It's Lotus. Genii Capital have just been keeping it warm. 


Edited by EvilPhil II, 21 February 2015 - 07:58.


#5 george1981

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Posted 21 February 2015 - 09:42

From what we can tell Lotus has been a money pit for Genii. They might have bought it for buttons from Renault originally but since then they've had to spend lots to keep it in business. Wouldn't that affect the price that Genii would accept?



#6 MikeV1987

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Posted 21 February 2015 - 09:49

I hope they go back to Enstone, and for Audi to go to Milton Keynes.


Edited by MikeV1987, 21 February 2015 - 09:53.


#7 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 21 February 2015 - 10:10

There are reports for a very long time now that Force India is about to collapse (if it hasn't collapsed already). Could be a suitable target

 

They should build their car in France, dammit.  

 

Build a shed next to Mechachrome, with your autoclaves, CNC etc.

 

None of this english nonsense.  :wave:

 

F1 needs ANOTHER team, not some rebrand nonsense.


Edited by V8 Fireworks, 21 February 2015 - 10:10.


#8 Masterschitz

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Posted 21 February 2015 - 10:14

They should build their car in France, dammit.  

 

Build a shed next to Mechachrome, with your autoclaves, CNC etc.

 

None of this english nonsense.  :wave:

 

F1 needs ANOTHER team, not some rebrand nonsense.

 

agree,  and yet, nothing into what Abitboul is saying could reffert to any  facility buy 



#9 pdac

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Posted 21 February 2015 - 10:35

 

F1 needs ANOTHER team, not some rebrand nonsense.

 

This (but, sadly, that's not what is likely to happen).



#10 FPV GTHO

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Posted 21 February 2015 - 11:20

If they went back to Enstone, why let them run off to Mercedes? Surely this isn't some new thought, why couldn't they offer them cheaper engines or something similar to hold onto the link?

#11 pryanjack

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Posted 21 February 2015 - 11:30

Personally I think the smart money would be on a Toro Rosso acquisition and an even deeper relationship with RedBull. The benefits?

- a car that is ready to go and already integrated
- marketing platform of RedBull and Renault is maintained but the car gives Renault a more visible platform
- cost synergies through shared resources and chassis integration

#12 Elba

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Posted 21 February 2015 - 11:47

Although I would love to see a full blown Renault works effort in F1, I'm afraid this is just a bit political posturing from Abiteboul.

They are fully dependent on the Red Bull teams now and those have been critical of Renault"s PU efforts.

 

But one can dream 



#13 kpastri

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Posted 21 February 2015 - 11:59

If Red Bull (Mateschitz) has already agreed with Audi to sell the team to the Germans, Renault will most certainly need another team to stay in F1, so why not have (buy or build) a factory one?

 

Ok, it's only speculation, and the story about Audi and F1 is too old, but it's just a thought



#14 wj_gibson

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Posted 21 February 2015 - 12:03

Alternatively, Toro Rosso has been unofficially for sale for several years. I would have thought that was surely the likeliest target for a Renault takeover? Though whether they would want to run a team based at Faenza is another matter - generally, teams that aspire to win titles need to be based in the UK since that's where the majority of the engineering talent is located.



#15 Fastcake

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Posted 21 February 2015 - 12:10

They should build their car in France, dammit.

Build a shed next to Mechachrome, with your autoclaves, CNC etc.

None of this english nonsense. :wave:

F1 needs ANOTHER team, not some rebrand nonsense.


Why? It's not like Renault's road cars are all built and sold in France. Where they (theoretically) choose to base the F1 operation doesn't really matter.

It would be nice if someone would set up a completely new team and expand the grid, but with the way things are currently you'd be wasting time and money not buying one of the existing outfits.

#16 Hans V

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Posted 21 February 2015 - 12:11

It kind of makes sense to buy a team instead of getting no or bad PR as an engine supplier (if Red Bull wins it's because of Adrian Newey, if they loose it's Renaults fault), apart from one thing; why is Renault in F1?

They say marketing, but it doesn't seem like their using F1 much in their marketing. They mostly produce mediocre small cars that is world aparts from F1 (except a couple of Trackday versions). The target audience for these models probably don't know about or care about F1. They don't make any high-performance cars that can associated with F1. AFAIK they don't have any hybrids (allthough a number of electric) models either. So they have little to gain from F1 technologically. I can hardly think of a manufactorerer that had less to gain from F1 than Renault.

Edited by Hans V, 21 February 2015 - 12:12.


#17 Elba

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Posted 21 February 2015 - 12:18

They say marketing, but it doesn't seem like their using F1 much in their marketing.

LOL seems you missed a bit of their marketing  :lol:

 

They refer to their F1 pedigree in many TV and print adverts, here's an example

 



#18 SealTheDiffuser

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Posted 21 February 2015 - 12:20

Force India, rumors are already there by this german f1-insider journo



#19 Laura23

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Posted 21 February 2015 - 12:21

Renault made their own bed with the new engines rules. They asked for the change and when it became clear they screwed it up they demanded the old engines come back. Mercedes rightly put their foot down and told Renault to lie in that bed. 
 
Now Renault are questioning their own future in the sport as a result of all the mess they helped create in the first place. Quite frankly I say just quit the sport unless they can prove they are committed to it and they can do that by stopping being Red Bull's whipping boys and starting up a new team from scratch. Forget all this buying Force India nonsense. Buying Force India right now would be like paying £1000 for a bag of 100 chocolate pound coins. You'd get the skeleton of a team but be left heavily out of pocket with debt you don't want and some really rather dodgy history on top. 
 
Do it from the start. Set up a whole new team that you aim to win the WCC with. 
 
Have a look at teams who bought other teams,
 
Honda - BAR - Honda were already pumping millions into the team to the point buying them outright was small change in the end.
Brawn - Honda - Ross bought them for a pound. No debt. Amazing car. Little budget but the big boys are about to come calling...
Merc - Brawn - Mercedes bought a team with next to no debt and a great factory in the UK. A team who had just won a WDC/WCC and who clearly had talent.
This lot did rather well in the end.
 
Jaguar - Stewart - Jackie wanted out because he had done what he wanted to do and knew he didn't have enough money himself to take on the big boys. Very little debt and engine supplier Ford already owned Jaguar so got a cut price deal for squad.
Red Bull - Jaguar - Ford didn't want to do F1 anymore so sold up to Red Bull rather cheap. No debt. Cheap engines. 
We all know how this one turned out.
 
Midland - Jordan - EJ ran out of money and was up to his eyeballs in debt. Sold team for handsome money to Midland Group who inherited the debt.
Spyker - Midland - Midland ran out of money within a year. Sold up, debt and all, to Spyker at end of 2006. 
Spyker - Force India - Spyker ran out of money within a year. Sold up, debt and all, to Force India at end of 2007.
Force India - ? - As we know Force India are running out of money fast and have huge debts, despite what they claim, belonging to their owners. Looking likely they won't see 2016 at this rate. 
 
The general rule seems to be if you want to buy a team in F1 and succeed you buy one that doesn't have masses of debt behind them. Because otherwise you are always playing catch up on the back foot. Renault should avoid Force India and Sauber. Perhaps the new Manor team would be perfect, a team that has paid off it's debt and suppliers and has a complete fresh base to begin from. 
 
Or even better. Why doesn't Renault just buy Toro Rosso from Red Bull who have been rumoured to be looking for a buyer for the team for a while already. They have next to no debt and a great little set up in Italy. Plus they already have staff working there as it is. If they have to buy an existing team Toro Rosso are their best option IMO.


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#20 wj_gibson

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Posted 21 February 2015 - 13:07

Depends really. If there is scope to buy Force India and its factory etc for a nominal £1 but also take on the debts then that may actually be cheaper than buying STR and then having to grow the tiny Faenza facility into something that can produce a title-challenging car.



#21 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 21 February 2015 - 13:08

 

Or even better. Why doesn't Renault just buy Toro Rosso from Red Bull who have been rumoured to be looking for a buyer for the team for a while already. They have next to no debt and a great little set up in Italy. Plus they already have staff working there as it is. If they have to buy an existing team Toro Rosso are their best option IMO.

 

 

Toro Rosso have very little engineering or manufacturing capability though.  Nearly everything is made by or with input from Red Bull Technologies, or using time on Red Bull Technologies supercomputers, or Red Bull Technologies wind tunnels etc...



#22 JHSingo

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Posted 21 February 2015 - 13:14

If Red Bull (Mateschitz) has already agreed with Audi to sell the team to the Germans, Renault will most certainly need another team to stay in F1, so why not have (buy or build) a factory one?

 

Ok, it's only speculation, and the story about Audi and F1 is too old, but it's just a thought

 

I can't see Audi entering, nor Red Bull leaving F1. Not in the immediate future anyway, especially given the preferential financial treatment they are given by FOM.

It'd be good to have Renault back as a full works team, but with the current budgets required, as well as the Eurozone economy being very shaky, I'm not convinced it will happen. We can live in hope.



#23 dau

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Posted 21 February 2015 - 13:20

Toro Rosso have very little engineering or manufacturing capability though.  Nearly everything is made by or with input from Red Bull Technologies, or using time on Red Bull Technologies supercomputers, or Red Bull Technologies wind tunnels etc...

STR builds their own chassis since 2010 or so, they have their own wind tunnel in Bicester and a CFD center in Faenza. For this year, they are basically just getting gearboxes and PUs from Red Bull/Renault according to Key himself.



#24 wj_gibson

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Posted 21 February 2015 - 13:24

STR builds their own chassis since 2010 or so, they have their own wind tunnel in Bicester and a CFD center in Faenza. For this year, they are basically just getting gearboxes and PUs from Red Bull/Renault according to Key himself.

 

It would still require a massive investment to convert it into a team that could win titles though. More likely they'd buy a UK-based midfield team I would have thought.



#25 LORDBYRON

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Posted 21 February 2015 - 13:54

Renault could have had the ashes of what was once caterham f1 as there would be was once good base to build from and possibly the cheapest  Renault could have bought the name and the entry and asked for dispensation to mis a year after paying the entry fee and would have been given it as there are Renault and not some 2 bob investor with no to little cash, right or wrong it would have been they easy way 



#26 wj_gibson

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Posted 21 February 2015 - 14:23

Renault could have had the ashes of what was once caterham f1 as there would be was once good base to build from and possibly the cheapest  Renault could have bought the name and the entry and asked for dispensation to mis a year after paying the entry fee and would have been given it as there are Renault and not some 2 bob investor with no to little cash, right or wrong it would have been they easy way 

 

They're still only considering the idea at this stage. Whereas there would have been a need to make a deicison on buying Caterham in a very short timescale - probably too short to put together a business case and sell it as Director level in the corporation.



#27 SonJR

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Posted 21 February 2015 - 14:26

So AmuS reporting Renault is indeed considering the four bottom teams. Best chances according to AMuS are for Toro Rosso.

 

STR Would make sense as it's probably the most cost-effective way to buy (into) a team. No known debts, own factory - even if it's in Italy - and rumours have been around of Red Bull - with whom they could still have a tech tie-up - being open to sell, even if these have abated since +/- 2012 as the team has become more competitive and (again) proven itself as a proving ground. You'd have to wonder if it would afford the 'degree of separation' from Red Bull it wants though. Would make sense for Red Bull on the other hand, keep the Renault relationship and still get double the exposure, without paying for two full-fledged operations.

 

Lotus would be both oddly appropriate and, well, just odd... I'd say that despite 2014 it's the team with the most potential and the best infrastructure of the four, and if the debt really is mostly owed to Genii, it's down to Lopez' willingness to deal and accept a loss, or a partial loss with similar loan constructions Renault gave him when he bought it off them in the first place. Breaking the multi-year deal with Mercedes could be costly as well.

 

Force India has proven to be competitive, but here the debt situation might be more complicated. The team don't own a useful wind tunnel, but apparently their CFD facilities are quite alright. I can imagine Renault wanting to get rid of Mallya and Roy though.

 

Sauber could make sense depending on their debt, as their Ferrari tie-up isn't as strong as it used to be and they do have an impressive wind tunnel. As with Force India and Lotus, though, you'd have to ask why other potential investors never pulled the trigger. There must be something about their finances, and the fact that Sauber too is remotely located, that has consistently complicated things.


Edited by SonJR, 21 February 2015 - 14:27.


#28 Timstr11

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Posted 21 February 2015 - 14:35

Lotus, the team they know so well, would be the most expensive, but certainly the best option.

They were winning races just 2,5 years ago which demonstrates their capabilities. It won't take much investment to get them to the front again.

Whereas Toro Rosso is unproven and not as well kitted as Lotus.



#29 JHSingo

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Posted 21 February 2015 - 14:36

Interesting. I wonder what would happen to the existing driver contracts if they bought Toro Rosso. I'm sure I remember reading shortly after he was confirmed that Verstappen has a three year deal.

 

Indeed, I wonder what would happen to the future of the Red Bull young driver programme?



#30 kpastri

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Posted 21 February 2015 - 14:39

I will go a bit wild. If Mateschitz is indeed considering selling Red Bull to Audi, why not sell it to Renault in the first place?



#31 Laura23

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Posted 21 February 2015 - 15:11

Interesting. I wonder what would happen to the existing driver contracts if they bought Toro Rosso. I'm sure I remember reading shortly after he was confirmed that Verstappen has a three year deal.

 

Indeed, I wonder what would happen to the future of the Red Bull young driver programme?

Nothing stopping Red Bull slashing the price for Toro Rosso in exchange for them keeping Verstappen and some Red Bull logos on the car.

 

Renault won't but Lotus. It might be the team they once owned by relations between Lotus and Renault became strained to the point of them splitting last year. There's too much bad blood at the moment and that Merc deal will be big money to break. 



#32 Myrvold

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Posted 21 February 2015 - 15:32

Too bad that they didn't buy the Caterham-Mess, could've had more cars...



#33 Fatgadget

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Posted 21 February 2015 - 15:40

Nothing stopping Red Bull slashing the price for Toro Rosso in exchange for them keeping Verstappen and some Red Bull logos on the car.

 

Renault won't but Lotus. It might be the team they once owned by relations between Lotus and Renault became strained to the point of them splitting last year. There's too much bad blood at the moment and that Merc deal will be big money to break. 

Give it a week or 2 and it will all be lovey dovey..Exhibit A.I give you McLaren and Alonso. Now who would have thought they'd kiss and make up ever?  :eek:



#34 Timstr11

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Posted 21 February 2015 - 15:44

Too bad that they didn't buy the Caterham-Mess, could've had more cars...

 

That would be just buying the team entry. Nothing more. Same effort required as setting up a new team from scratch. 



#35 dau

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Posted 21 February 2015 - 15:49

It would still require a massive investment to convert it into a team that could win titles though. More likely they'd buy a UK-based midfield team I would have thought.

No doubt about the massive investment. I'm not convinced they're seriously planning to return as a factory team. "Considering" doesn't say a lot, really - VW "considers" entering F1 too from time to time and so will lots of manufacturers. And Ghosn isn't one to throw buckets of money at F1 unless there's a clear marketing advantage to just being an engine manufacturer, which i can't see at the moment. It's just too expensive at the top.



#36 BiH

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Posted 21 February 2015 - 17:28

How can Lotus be option now that they are running Mercedes engine.

 

 

The only option it seems could be STR.



#37 DanardiF1

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Posted 21 February 2015 - 17:32

How can Lotus be option now that they are running Mercedes engine.

 

 

The only option it seems could be STR.

 

But they want to have more presence on the grid not just their name on the second of the Renault-powered cars.

 

Force India and Lotus are the most obvious prospects, but Lotus moving to Mercedes complicates things in that regard.



#38 LORDBYRON

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Posted 21 February 2015 - 17:48

How can Lotus be option now that they are running Mercedes engine.

 

 

The only option it seems could be STR.

Lotus is just a pipe dream for the people living in the past

 

tedd said on the note book that the car was now set up to run all the merc gear and the way i understood his comments  as they spent 2014 as a test car to get it right faster so it would take Renault two to three seasons to re work the team to there engine and other settings  

 

A Renault based team is the only realistic option if they dont want 2/3/4 seasons to rebuild like merc have already done 


Edited by LORDBYRON, 21 February 2015 - 17:51.


#39 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

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Posted 21 February 2015 - 18:08

Enstone without Renault involvement just seems so........wrong.

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#40 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 21 February 2015 - 18:32

?  Renault would be best off starting their own PROPER French team IMO.



#41 Fastcake

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Posted 21 February 2015 - 18:35

Buying Toro Rosso might not bring any unwanted baggage, but the split location and lack of in-house facilities have their own problems. The chassis team is in Faenza, the aero is in Bicester and the rear end comes from Red Bull Technologies in Milton Keynes. No works team is going to be buying tech from other teams, so Renault would have to invest a sizeable amount to have a competitive team.

 

If Renault were looking to re-enter, you would think Lotus, Force India, and Sauber are all better option. (Unless they could just buy Red Bull of course.)



#42 FullThrottleF1

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Posted 21 February 2015 - 18:41

How much would I cost to set up a new team though?



#43 Risil

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Posted 21 February 2015 - 19:41

So AmuS reporting Renault is indeed considering the four bottom teams. Best chances according to AMuS are for Toro Rosso.

 

Perhaps they could buy all four and merge them together. I bet that would be FOM's preferred option.



#44 BRG

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Posted 21 February 2015 - 20:00

Renault own Dacia.  So perhaps they will take over the new Romanian F1 team.  Shouldn't cost them more than a couple of euros.



#45 Jvr

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Posted 20 March 2015 - 14:58

Just to post this also here. Beyond this story, reportedly Bob Bell has visited there and Renault likes the fact that Toro Rosso has no debt. Let's see what happens.

 

http://www.grandprix...sso-may-happen/


Edited by Jvr, 20 March 2015 - 15:01.


#46 alframsey

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Posted 22 March 2015 - 15:18

Where would this leave red bull in regards to being a works team?

#47 LORDBYRON

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Posted 22 March 2015 - 16:29

Where would this leave red bull in regards to being a works team?

Renault wont touch any red bull team there is to much bad blood with them now. Renault only get credit when there loosing. Red bull are that low a few year back they made a Renuald guy were a Red Bull shirt on the podium and not A Renault one. As for a team to buy if it was the bottom four best out of a bad bunch is manor and they have halved there debt and are on to anther 35 or more million long as they finish the season due to there only being ten teams now so all finish in the points.

 

I really doubt there new backer at manor has most of or all the 30 million the team is spending this season and there were rumours they were only paying for engines they used IE pay as you go the real backer could be any one. The Honda deal was in the works for a long time before it was public.


Edited by LORDBYRON, 22 March 2015 - 16:34.


#48 SanDiegoGo

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Posted 22 March 2015 - 16:48

Where would this leave red bull in regards to being a works team?

 

 

they wouldn't be, they would be a customer team by default. it would only get worse as Renault F1 get stronger and ensure they get the best package at every turn and red bull would eventually be overtaken by the works team. red bull cannot allow that to happen. so, they either sell up and ensure it isn't "red bull" who are failing or they find another engine supplier. red bull will not countenance being a customer team now. on the way up, fine. once you're there, no way.



#49 Talisman

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Posted 22 March 2015 - 23:12

Nothing stopping Red Bull slashing the price for Toro Rosso in exchange for them keeping Verstappen and some Red Bull logos on the car.

 

Renault won't but Lotus. It might be the team they once owned by relations between Lotus and Renault became strained to the point of them splitting last year. There's too much bad blood at the moment and that Merc deal will be big money to break. 

 

There is no such thing as bad blood where business is concerned if it makes sense for all the parties.

 

Having said that the best move IMO for Renault would be to actually mention the fact that they race in their ads.  Its been a long time since I've seen an F1 reference in any Renault ad.  That would probably go furthest in terms of bang for the buck.

 

Failing that buying a British based team with adequate resources is the best option and Lotus would be the only one who fits that bill.  FI outsources everything as the Silverstone team always has since Jordan days, it'll need massive investment to bring up to speed.

 

Sauber is in the wrong country though they did show with BMW that with massive investment they can win.  STR IMO would be a bad move, any Italian engineer or mechanic who proves himself there gets lured to Ferrari and why wouldn't they go?  The team would always haemorrhage good staff.  The only advantage they have is that they are debt free which the others aren't.



#50 lbennie

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Posted 23 March 2015 - 00:43

Red bull are that low a few year back they made a Renuald guy were a Red Bull shirt on the podium and not A Renault one.

 

:rolleyes:

This place is getting ridiculous.