4000 replies to this topic

[Disgrace]

Part I.

 

As you were then...

[Ducks]

Can this thread be about the car?

[Tenmantaylor]

Remember the McLaren merc years when the engines were clearly regularly lunching themselves yet the official line from Haug and even James Allen (for fear of stating the obvious) was hydraulic failure, electronics failure, any failure but "engine failure". This reminds me of that, blaming the minutiae when it's just as likely a fundamental design flaw. My point? Don't attach too much importance to the reasons they tell you, there are likely many other ancillary issues than this individual part that need rectifying or redesigning.

In some ways I'd rather see McLaren grab pole then blow up after 10 laps rather than get both cars home outside the points and gather data. Damn engine limits! This situation is looking highly unlikely even without the engine limit.

[Lemans]

Can this thread be about the car?

 

That's going to be difficult when the vultures from other team threads smell blood.

Edited by Lemans, 21 February 2015 - 17:07.

[Christophe77]

Still only 21 laps? disappointed by Honda... Yes you can compare to Renault last year, but you can also compare to mercedes last year and they're miles off...

[OvDrone]

Can this thread be about the car?

 

Not about the car. Just about people panicking.

[johnzaxxon]

First shot of the re-engineered seal. The PU should be on song from now on.

[ConsiderAndGo]

Really want Honda to get their act together. Fernando deserves it.

[extremeday]

@Charly0418, "MLaren credibility has died over the last two years, they have lost the benefit of the doubt" that´s the reason why people are pessimistic? Come on, let's be serious. I´ve seen teams promising many things at the start of the season, then struggling the whole season. I´ve seen teams being weak at the start and strong at the end or vice versa, I´ve seen teams improving and teams being unable to improve, I´ve seen teams complaining, teams being political, teams trying to take advantage of certain situations, teams saying they will be competitive next season, then failing completely, teams totally dominating the whole season with no single change for the others, no matter how competitive they were. I´ve seen great expectations being totally destroyed as the time goes by. I´ve seen teams losing credibility for years, but you focus on McLaren?

 

People are pessimistic because they want everything right now, because if something fails now that means that there is no chance for the future, in the same way, if something works now that means it will work forever. People can also be pessimistic because, as another forumer has said, people smell blood.

 

Who knows how competitive this car will be? who truly knows?

[MinT]

Part of the problem is they haven't exactly been leading the field in the last couple of years - so the prospect of yet another year "rebuilding" or trying to "unlock the potential" doesn't exactly fill McLaren fans with joy......

and for those saying don't panic they are learning about the new car & engine - they cant learn much if its hardly doing any laps and running gimped during those anyway.

Edited by MinT, 21 February 2015 - 17:41.

[Gilles4Ever]

Can we please stop with the discussion of the fans and anybody else the history of the team or anything else that is off topic and limit the discussion to the car.

[Rocket73]

ok...the car's bolox.

 

 

 

 

 

 

atm

[extremeday]

Part of the problem is they haven't exactly been leading the field in the last couple of years - so the prospect of yet another year "rebuilding" or trying to "unlock the potential" doesn't exactly fill McLaren fans with joy......

and for those saying don't panic they are learning about the new car & engine - they cant learn much if its hardly doing any laps and running gimped during those anyway.

 

They are learning about the issues, trying to avoid them in the future, they are trying to know why those issues turn up. They are learning what they have in hands because many things are new and haven't been together before. If they don't solve the problems now, the problems will be there constantly. Another issues can come, but they must go step by step, that is what always happens, no matter the job.

 

I am not defending McLaren-Honda. Defending from what? I said I have no clue about how competitive this car will be, but it is astonishing how people draw really negative or positive conclusions after few days of testing, when the season hasn't started yet. 

 

Can anybody conclude that McLaren won't beat Williams or Ferrari or Red Bull or even Mercedes at some point in the future? at the end of this season or the start pr end of next season, for example? if this happens, I would like to read the opinions of those who have quite clear opinions right now. 

[V8 Fireworks]

Part of the problem is they haven't exactly been leading the field in the last couple of years - so the prospect of yet another year "rebuilding" or trying to "unlock the potential" doesn't exactly fill McLaren fans with joy......

and for those saying don't panic they are learning about the new car & engine - they cant learn much if its hardly doing any laps and running gimped during those anyway.

Fair enough... I am a Honda fan not a McLaren fan and couldn't care less about your plight, sorry to say. 

[showtime]

Ted Kravitz ‏@tedkravitz 

JB: "We won't win the first race of the season but we might win the last"

Ted Kravitz ‏@tedkravitz 

Looks like reliability might be an issue for McL tomorrow, too: JB says 'we won't be doing 150 laps, put it that way'.

Ted Kravitz ‏@tedkravitz 

JB concludes McL Honda is basically a well balanced, driveable car with no brake by wire horrors or nasty surprises. Just fix little probs..

Edited by showtime, 21 February 2015 - 18:44.

[Kulturen]

JB: "We won't win the first race of the season but we might win the last"

 

That was always the plan. I feel that the people who are disappointed are those who made the mistake to manage to convince themselves that McLaren and the Honda engine would come straight out of the box and challenge for wins.

[Laura23]

Think Jenson is setting himself up for disappointment there. Last time McLaren had a new engine supplier it took them three years to get it right. It's clear the Honda engine is nowhere near doing a race distance on full power yet, nowhere near. Given they have less than a month until the first race weekend it looks likely the first few races will just be test sessions for the team now. 

[bogi]

This thread is hitting red line, but still no close to 2011

[OvDrone]

This thread is hitting red line, but still no close to 2011

 

Man, that 2011 thread was hilarious.

[Nonesuch]

Button, Jenson Button, said it was a balanced car, a well balanced car at that?

 

All joking aside, I'm a bit surprised that Honda and McLaren are having this many problems. Perhaps getting all these complex systems to work together is more complicated than is sometimes appreciated, but I'd have thought the extra year (so to say) would have given them the opportunity to have a smoother start than some of the teams had last year (though of course it's not as hilariously terrible as Red Bull was).

 

Best of luck to McLaren. Whatever else is true about the team, Button vs. Alonso is a battle I want to see play out at the sharp end of the grid.

[Mc_Silver]

Guys we need to calm down. It was always expected that first half of the season would be tough. We should give them some time as everything is new for Honda. They have a lot of things to learn and improve. There is lots of potential in the car. I'm not worried in terms of chassis quality and aero. Power Unit will be the deciding factor for us. I hope new MGU-K won't fail tomorrow. We should be able to do 70+ laps tomorrow at least.

Edited by Mc_Silver, 21 February 2015 - 19:14.

[Tenmantaylor]

I don't believe much from the drivers mouths about the fundamental driveabilty of the new cars at this stage either, especially when so far off the pace in a completely new car designed to new regs that they have no reference point to compare to. This years cars are already a fair bit faster than last year I've read so it's natural to assume they should feel better, what's important is how much better. The feel of the car finding that last couple of tenths is where it matters, the difference between pole and 6th, a podium or missing out on points.

[Laura23]

Guys we need to calm down. It was always expected that first half of the season would be tough. We should give them some time as everything is new for Honda. They have a lot of things to learn and improve. There is lots of potential in the car. I'm not worried in terms of chassis quality amd aero. Power Unit will be the deciding factor for us. I hope new MGU-K won't fail tomorrow. We should be able to do 70+ laps tomorrow at least.

McLaren will be lucky to get 40 the way things have gone this week.

[NoSanityClause]

People, people...again, the problems are frustrating, but please note that once and again they were rather small, if annoying as a single mosquito while you are trying to get some sleep.

 

Today's problem, as was that yesterday, as was it before yesterday, is a seal. Bigger, more complex machines have been hampered by cheaper pieces of hardware than this one. All things considered, is pretty amazed that a completely new design, with two teams working for the first time in opposite (almost) ends of the world, can come with a car that so far haven't shown any problems bigger than a faulty seal and some software/integration problems. 

 

Yes, I am fully aware that these small problems are hampering the unleashing of the car at similar levels than the competition and thus, letting us know if there are other problems. But again, I haven't seen the MP4-30 smoking, or on fire. I am quite sure that any major aerodynamic flaw would be evident even with this limited testing and it seems that this is no undriveable brick so far.

 

My first favorite team was Renault back in the 70s. The "yellow teapots". In an era when cars bursting into flame and expelling huge clouds of smoke was a common sight, you needed to have a really fragile car to be ridiculed precisely for that. They kept trying because they had an innovative idea and decided to stick to it. It took years, but when that idea flourished, it changed F1 forever, ruled the 80s and had it's effects felt still today. Yup, turbo engines. Bottom line? 3 T's:

 

Things

Take

Time

 

The possibilities of getting this right at first try were minuscule, to say the least. And this should not be any surprise to anybody with a memory that spans more than the past 15 minutes, as that mantra has been repeated all this past year. So, they (McLaren, Honda, Alonso, Button...you name it) predicted that this would not be easy and guess what? They were right! 

 

The car's true potential? No idea. But this is far from being the end of the world. This is...testing.

[Lotus53B]

I can't decide whether it's an inherent problem with the engine, or a consequence of the extremely tight packaging

Either way, I don't think that there's a quick fix - my guess is 50 laps tomorrow.

[showtime]

http://www1.skysport...gh-year-in-2015

 

“We are not in for another tough season – that is definitely not the case – but whether we are ready for the first race or not I can’t say right now. This is a very different situation to the last two years – the last two years we just weren’t quick enough, whereas now this is all very new for us," Button told reporters.

 

“It would be a very different situation if this was last year, I don’t think I would be sat here answering the same questions because most people would be in the same position.

“Everyone else has so much experience with these power units, whereas Honda obviously doesn’t. So it looks worse than it is, I would love to be pounding around every day that we have the car, but it is just not the case right now.

“There are problems which we need to solve and hope that the next test will be a good test for us in terms of mileage so that we feel confident going to the first race that we can get the best out of what we have and push the car to the limit.”

“I think for us we are not going to have a race-winning car at the first race, but we might have one at the last race,” the former world champion said.

“I think you are going to see big improvements from us, we are all quite interested to see what this car can do because I think it has a lot of potential, but it is just very difficult to extract from the car. It is tough for all of us and on the guys in the garage taking it apart and putting it back together, but we will solve these problems and hopefully soon.”

“All the bits that the people struggled with drivability-wise last year, with the two engines that I didn’t drive, we don’t have,” he said.

"We have made massive steps forward since the first test which is really nice to see – drivability and also under braking. That is all working really well which is good and once we get past those issues we can build on developing the car in terms of set up. It is just fine tuning drivability now which is great and a really nice position to be in.”

[Newbrray]

I can't decide whether it's an inherent problem with the engine, or a consequence of the extremely tight packaging

Either way, I don't think that there's a quick fix - my guess is 50 laps tomorrow.

 

The latter can be sorted I believe, the former however won't be so easy 

[extremeday]

People, people...again, the problems are frustrating, but please note that once and again they were rather small, if annoying as a single mosquito while you are trying to get some sleep.

 

Today's problem, as was that yesterday, as was it before yesterday, is a seal. Bigger, more complex machines have been hampered by cheaper pieces of hardware than this one. All things considered, is pretty amazed that a completely new design, with two teams working for the first time in opposite (almost) ends of the world, can come with a car that so far haven't shown any problems bigger than a faulty seal and some software/integration problems. 

 

Yes, I am fully aware that these small problems are hampering the unleashing of the car at similar levels than the competition and thus, letting us know if there are other problems. But again, I haven't seen the MP4-30 smoking, or on fire. I am quite sure that any major aerodynamic flaw would be evident even with this limited testing and it seems that this is no undriveable brick so far.

 

My first favorite team was Renault back in the 70s. The "yellow teapots". In an era when cars bursting into flame and expelling huge clouds of smoke was a common sight, you needed to have a really fragile car to be ridiculed precisely for that. They kept trying because they had an innovative idea and decided to stick to it. It took years, but when that idea flourished, it changed F1 forever, ruled the 80s and had it's effects felt still today. Yup, turbo engines. Bottom line? 3 T's:

 

Things

Take

Time

 

The possibilities of getting this right at first try were minuscule, to say the least. And this should not be any surprise to anybody with a memory that spans more than the past 15 minutes, as that mantra has been repeated all this past year. So, they (McLaren, Honda, Alonso, Button...you name it) predicted that this would not be easy and guess what? They were right! 

 

The car's true potential? No idea. But this is far from being the end of the world. This is...testing.

 

Yep.

 

 

 

Ted Kravitz ‏@tedkravitz 

JB: "We won't win the first race of the season but we might win the last"

Ted Kravitz ‏@tedkravitz 

Looks like reliability might be an issue for McL tomorrow, too: JB says 'we won't be doing 150 laps, put it that way'.

Ted Kravitz ‏@tedkravitz 

JB concludes McL Honda is basically a well balanced, driveable car with no brake by wire horrors or nasty surprises. Just fix little probs..

 

 

How dares he? 

 

Seriously, can´t you see great expectations coming from this team? This has caught my attention. They face problem after problem, reliability issues, apparently they think they won’t be ready at the start of the season, but when they talk, the words that come to my mind are great expectations. They don´t even talk about being competitive, they think of winning. Ron Dennis, Aray, Bullier, the drivers, are all of them totally deluded? Are all of them lying? Are all of them pretending? Why? Do they like the pressure? Nonsensical.

 

Whenever they say something positive there are people trying to downplay what they say, it is a curious thing. Maybe they know something we don’t know? Maybe it is too soon for armchair experts to draw any conclusions, myself included.   

[Button4life]

Man, that 2011 thread was hilarious.

Oh, I think I need to read it back then. Do you remember how the reaction was after the 1st race in 2011

[Button4life]

I like the fact the car is balanced. That should play into Jenson's hand

[Laura23]

I like the fact the car is balanced. That should play into Jenson's hand

It's well balanced at nowhere near full speed. It remains to be seen just how balanced the car be at racing speeds under race conditions.

[BillBald]

I'm wondering whether a year ago Honda saw the split turbo/compressor design from Merc, realised it was an unbeatable solution, and felt they had no choice but to scrap their previous designs and start again.

 

So everything was done in too much of a rush. They didn't do the bench-testing which would have uncovered these flaws, because the new motor wasn't ready in time.

 

Otherwise it's starting to look like incompetence on their part, and I find that fairly hard to believe.

[AustinF1]

It's well balanced at nowhere near full speed. It remains to be seen just how balanced the car be at racing speeds under race conditions.

Alonso seemed to like it and he ran a 1:25.9. Racing speed.

[Rocket73]

It seems to me, from what I have gathered, that the car is fundamentally quick but is suffering from major teething problems.

 

It's impossible not to get frustrated with the lack of running when you are a dedicated fan of the team and/or either one of the drivers.

 

People need to express that and they do it here. It is a forum after all.

 

 

You know we could do a hundred laps tomorrow.

[Rocket73]

JB backs this up.

 

http://www.gptoday.c..._than_they_are/

[chumma]

I hope the seal is not a nagging issue next week.

[bogi]

[Clatter]

I'm wondering whether a year ago Honda saw the split turbo/compressor design from Merc, realised it was an unbeatable solution, and felt they had no choice but to scrap their previous designs and start again.

 

So everything was done in too much of a rush. They didn't do the bench-testing which would have uncovered these flaws, because the new motor wasn't ready in time.

 

Otherwise it's starting to look like incompetence on their part, and I find that fairly hard to believe.

People are still assuming that that is the magic bullet.

[AustinF1]

People are still assuming that that is the magic bullet.

Yeah I don;t know that it's the huge deal/difference-maker that so many assume it is. I think it's just one part of their design that combines lots of tiny advantages into one big one.

[Absulute]

I hope the seal is not a nagging issue next week.

 

[ButtonForEver]

Call me crazy, but they can win in 2015.

[f1tomi8]

Call me crazy, but they can win in 2015.

Amen!

[Button4life]

Call me crazy, but they can win in 2015.

Call me crazy too but I think we can finish a race in 2015.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Now without kidding, I've no idea if the car is able to win a race.

Edited by Button4life, 21 February 2015 - 21:26.

[AustinF1]

Call me crazy, but they can win in 2015.

I don;t think that's crazy. I think this car may be very quick. Reliability will likely only get better as better as the season progresses.

 

Everyone wants awesome success right now, and that's somewhat understandable, but we might all enjoy the ride a lot more if we take a 2-year view rather than considering this year a failure if no championships are won. I think it's going to be a lot of fun watching this team figure things out and improve.

[BillBald]

People are still assuming that that is the magic bullet.

 

If you can avoid making the air hot, you won't need to cool it down as much.

 

It's not hard to understand. Less cooling = less weight, less drag, smaller packaging and more downforce.

 

The reason the other teams did it differently, is because they assumed that a long shaft would always give problems.

 

Merc showed it could work reliably, but only Honda was in a position to imitate them. Honda didn't want to make the same mistake they did in 2006, and homologate an engine which was reliable but lacking in performance.

[BillBald]

Call me crazy, but they can win in 2015.

 

 

Call me crazy too but I think we can finish a race in 2015.

 

 

Now without kidding, I've no idea if the car is able to win a race.

 

OK, you're both crazy, but the car might be able to win anyway.

[AustinF1]

If you can avoid making the air hot, you won't need to cool it down as much.

 

It's not hard to understand. Less cooling = less weight, less drag, smaller packaging and more downforce.

 

The reason the other teams did it differently, is because they assumed that a long shaft would always give problems.

 

Merc showed it could work reliably, but only Honda was in a position to imitate them. Honda didn't want to make the same mistake they did in 2006, and homologate an engine which was reliable but lacking in performance.

No, it's not hard to understand, and surely there's an advantage there. That still doesn't convince me that the split turbo by itself is the huge advantage so many assume it is.

[Button4life]

 

 

Everyone wants awesome success right now, and that's somewhat understandable, but we might all enjoy the ride a lot more if we take a 2-year view rather than considering this year a failure if no championships are won. I think it's going to be a lot of fun watching this team figure things out and improve.

I agree with this. Hopefully we can do a Red Bull and will this year be the 2009 of Red Bull. Building a good base and keep improving every year. I think everyone prefers a fast car that is unrealible over a car that's realible but slow. For this you need patience as you can't do and learn everyting in 1 minute. It takes time. I've 3 T's for that

Things

Take

Time

[extremeday]

I admit I´ve been bored with F1. Those dominating years with Red Bull, last extremely dominating year with Mercedes, it was only Hamilton against Rosberg, or Hamilton against Hamilton. I was waiting for last year, waiting for Red Bull dominance to finish and I got Mercedes. This year I am waiting for Ricciardo and for McLaren, I can see potential in both cases. I don´t want Ricciardo or McLaren to dominate, I don´t want anybody to dominate, I want them to be fighting for the tittles with some others. Few years ago people were saying that F1 would be in Vettel hands, he won´t have any opposition because nobody will be as good as he is, people said, great predictions. Just the thought of that possibility, one driver dominating everything for years, was frustrating for me. Then Ricciardo was Vettel teammate, then he started beating Vettel, then I thought maybe there was something there, then he beat Vettel. This year McLaren-Honda have great expectations, they fail and fail but expectations keep rolling, they have a good looking car with an aggressive design, they are thinking of the big prize when they are still trying to complete a few laps in testing days, then I think that maybe there is something here.

 

I want someone to compete against Mercedes. Ferrari don't impress me although they have improved, I think they don't take enough risks and I like this kind of risks. Williams don't impress me either, neither the team nor the drivers. I only have Red Bull and McLaren, I like their designers, their approach to win and their drivers. Ironically I want Red Bull to win again.

 

Can’t you see the positive things this Mclaren-Honda project has? Really good designer, ambition, aggressive design, experienced and talented drivers and strong will for winning?

 

I watched this car and thought it was a beauty, but most people in this forum thought it was awful. I see several positive things about this project but most people are pessimistic. At least people don´t say that Ricciardo is an overrated driver with few chances of winning in the future.  

[AustinF1]

...

 

Things

Take

Time

 

 

 

...

 

Things

Take

Time

 

...

 

Agreed.