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Joan Richmond's car colour?


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#1 Tripehound414

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Posted 26 February 2015 - 16:11

Hi all,

Thankyou for allowing me to join this forum.

I’m currently doing an art project based on this 1934 photo of Mrs Gordon Simpson and Miss Joan Richmond on Miss Richmond’s car (1921 three litre Ballot racer):-

http://flashbak.com/...-racer-1934.jpg

I am wondering if anyone can tell me what colour their car would have been?

Many thanks.



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#2 Allan Lupton

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Posted 26 February 2015 - 20:49

It doesn't look like the Ballot to me.



#3 275 GTB-4

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Posted 26 February 2015 - 22:22

more likely a works Riley...



#4 D-Type

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Posted 26 February 2015 - 23:16

This picture appears on P41 of MOTOR RACING the golden age by John Tennant.  The Ballot features on P 272 - it is not the same car.  On P40 there is photo captioned "Joan Richmond and Kay Petre overhaul their Riley" which is a different car as well.

Sorry to be so negative..  I'm afraid I don't know enough about the period to suggest what it might be. The flat scuttle and rear-hinged doors might be a clue.



#5 raceannouncer2003

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Posted 27 February 2015 - 06:21

They apparently raced an MG Midget PA at Le Mans in 1935, #56.

 

Vince H.



#6 Catalina Park

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Posted 27 February 2015 - 08:02

I don't think it is a MG PA and I don't think it is Le Mans.

I think it is a Triumph.

#7 Tim Murray

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Posted 27 February 2015 - 08:53

The photo appears on this page of Brooklands photos, so it's probably reasonable to assume that the location is Brooklands. The caption says July 1934:

http://flashbak.com/...machines-17119/

In WB's Brooklands history he mentions Mrs Gordon-Simpson and Joan Richmond both racing Triumphs at around that time, so I'll second Catalina Park's suggestion that it's a Triumph.

(edited after I found I'd been looking at the wrong year in WB's book :blush: )

Edited by Tim Murray, 27 February 2015 - 09:30.


#8 275 GTB-4

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Posted 27 February 2015 - 09:08

The photo appears on this page of Brooklands photos, so it's probably reasonable to assume that the location is Brooklands. The caption says July 1934:

http://flashbak.com/...machines-17119/

In WB's Brooklands history he mentions Mrs Gordon-Simpson racing Ian Connell's Vale, and Joan Richmond driving a Triumph, at around that time, so I'll second Catalina Park's suggestion that it's a Triumph.


Just fabulous... :up:



#9 Vitesse2

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Posted 27 February 2015 - 09:30

Bear in mind that some people did buy sports cars as bare chassis and take them to coachbuilders. Suicide doors are a fairly common feature on both coachbuilt and factory-built models and while it bears a resemblance to some Triumph Dolomite Straight Eights I don't think it actually is one.

 

The thing which ought to be distinctive is that brass or chrome detail just ahead of the door. I looked at a few obvious candidates like the Alvis Speed 20, Triumph Dolomite and Invicta S-type. The bodywork is very similar to the Invicta - but that detail isn't there. One car which does have a similar detail is the British Salmson - but it's angled rather than vertical and the Salmson doesn't have a flat bonnet.

 

However, I think this may fit the bill ...

 

1935-Aston-Martin-Mk-II-Long-Chassis-ope

 

It's a Long-chassis Aston Martin.



#10 Allan Lupton

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Posted 27 February 2015 - 09:36

Yes I'll agree that it's a Triumph, probably the one in this photograph. Although it's hard to see any common detail, the three-bolt windscreen bracket and the forward-located door handle are visible:

016.jpg

 

spelliny not guaranteed!



#11 Catalina Park

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Posted 27 February 2015 - 10:06

I think it would be the Triumph Southern Cross that Eva Gordon Simpson used to win the novices handicap at Brooklands on the 7th July 1934.

#12 275 GTB-4

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Posted 27 February 2015 - 10:32

Yes I'll agree that it's a Triumph, probably the one in this photograph. Although it's hard to see any common detail, the three-bolt windscreen bracket and the forward-located door handle are visible:
 
spelliny not guaranteed!


I have a feeling that that great photo of Joan was taken back in Australia...(yeah we had faux cobblestones here)...just something to bear in mind.

#13 Catalina Park

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Posted 27 February 2015 - 11:06

I have a feeling that that great photo of Joan was taken back in Australia...

Not a chance.

#14 Tripehound414

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Posted 27 February 2015 - 11:22

Many thanks for all your help and info - very interesting and I apologise for my lack of knowledge.
I'm really after the colour of the car. Would it have been british racing green as in the example above?
Many thanks.

#15 Tripehound414

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Posted 27 February 2015 - 11:23

Many thanks for all your help and info - very interesting and I apologise for my lack of knowledge.
I'm really after the colour of the car. Would it have been british racing green as in the example above?
Many thanks.

#16 Allan Lupton

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Posted 27 February 2015 - 17:55

Many thanks for all your help and info - very interesting and I apologise for my lack of knowledge.
I'm really after the colour of the car. Would it have been british racing green as in the example above?
Many thanks.

Understandable that you believed the caption on what appears to be a reputable site!

My feeling is that British Racing Green was not widely used in the early 1930s, even at international events such as Le Mans. In superstitious circles, green was regarded as unlucky.



#17 D-Type

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Posted 27 February 2015 - 20:40

Did Brooklands programmes give colours, even if only 'blue' 'green' etc?  Which begs the question: Who has copies?  National Motor Museum, BARC archives, BRDC archives?



#18 Tripehound414

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Posted 27 February 2015 - 21:05

Thanks Allan Lupton.

 

I'm very new to this subject, but am very eager to learn about the early racing ladies for my art project.

I'm keen to know the colour of that Joan Richmond car, which I am led to believe was originally Malcolm Campbell's?

I knew very little about motor racing, let alone women in the sport, until I embarked upon this project. I have been delighted to learn about such women as Kay Petre, Mrs Victor Bruce, Violette Morris and Helle Nice, and am keen to learn more.

As an artist, I'm specialising in producing colour drawaings of their black and white photographs.



#19 Tim Murray

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Posted 27 February 2015 - 22:01

I'm keen to know the colour of that Joan Richmond car, which I am led to believe was originally Malcolm Campbell's?


The 3-litre Grand Prix Ballot was owned by Malcolm Campbell. Jack Dunfee bought the car from Campbell and raced it for many years before it went to Joan Richmond. In his Brooklands book Bill Boddy (WB) said that the Ballot was blue when Richmond raced it. However, to reiterate, the Ballot is not the car in the photo of Joan Richmond and Eva Gordon-Simpson smoking ciggies.



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#20 Catalina Park

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Posted 28 February 2015 - 01:16

The Triumph in the photo was probably green. There are a few mentions in the Joan Richmond book that the Triumphs were green.

A couple of photos of what appears to be the same car borrowed from the Joan Richmond book...

Triumph01.jpg

Triumph02.jpg

#21 Allan Lupton

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Posted 28 February 2015 - 08:59

The Triumph in the photo was probably green. There are a few mentions in the Joan Richmond book that the Triumphs were green.

In view of this, I'm happy to withdraw my comment about BR green being unlikely. The B&W photos make it seem a dark colour so it could well have been BRG.



#22 LotusElise

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Posted 28 February 2015 - 18:14

Other contemporary racing cars were definitely green, either BRG or that lighter, pea green. If this is a purely artistic venture, then dark red, navy blue or chocolate brown would also look correct for the period.

 

The Ballot would have been French racing blue, as blue was the Campbells' colour as well.



#23 Tim Murray

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Posted 28 February 2015 - 20:23

The Ballot would have been French racing blue, as blue was the Campbells' colour as well.


I suspect you're right, but the car had been green for most of its time with Jack Dunfee, so Joan Richmond would have had to change the colour back to blue.

#24 john medley

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Posted 28 February 2015 - 20:31

I think the car shown is not just a Triumph but the Triumph which  Catalina Park supplies pics of from the Joan Richmond book. The windscreenless windscreen bracket and the forward-opening doors tell us lots. I suspect the pic could have been taken not on the July 1934 day Eva won the Novices Handicap with that crudely-daubed number, but on some other occasion when Joan changed her shirt. Eva's pearls  (visible in both novice handicap pic and the original pic) suggest these pics are on the same day -- and makes the colour puzzle more problematic : too dark to be much other than black (or Lotus Elise's suggestions) in the original,  but too pale in the  Catalina Park underdeveloped pics. Both tiny Eva and tall-ish Joan drove lots of Triumphs, then and later, but a likely car was registered KV8250, a Triumph Southern Cross. Perhaps Triumph experts here have records, including colours? 



#25 Tim Murray

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Posted 28 February 2015 - 21:08

Here are a couple of photos of KV8250, both from June 1934:

http://www.motoringp...+sport&rows=200

http://www.motoringp...+sport&rows=200

#26 Tripehound414

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Posted 03 March 2015 - 11:05

Thanks again for all your help, everyone. I didn't realise how fascinating this reaearch could be :-)



#27 Tim Murray

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Posted 03 March 2015 - 13:07

Tripehound, if you haven't found them already there are many earlier threads here about women in motor sport. Here are a couple on women drivers in general:

http://forums.autosp...s-in-the-1930s/

http://forums.autosp...-women-drivers/

and a couple more on Hellé Nice:

http://forums.autosp...lle-helle-nice/

http://forums.autosp...i-queen-merged/

TNFer Lotus Elise's Speedqueens site is also very useful:

http://speedqueens.blogspot.co.uk/