Jump to content


Photo
- - - - -

Why didn't south korean had a active motorsports culture?


  • Please log in to reply
24 replies to this topic

#1 ronsingapore

ronsingapore
  • Member

  • 103 posts
  • Joined: November 14

Posted 27 February 2015 - 03:32

Why didn't south korean had a active motorsports culture?

 

I mean Japan was 40 yrs back what S.Korea is now today and its car companies participated in motorsports.



Advertisement

#2 teejay

teejay
  • Member

  • 6,129 posts
  • Joined: May 09

Posted 27 February 2015 - 03:36

Because win on Sunday sell on Monday is no longer a real thing in 2015.



#3 V8 Fireworks

V8 Fireworks
  • Member

  • 10,824 posts
  • Joined: June 06

Posted 27 February 2015 - 03:38

Because win on Sunday sell on Monday is no longer a real thing in 2015.

 

):   "Everyday" cars are still fun   ;)

 

 

There are high tariffs and a dislike for Japanese cars, for one thing.  :|  Sporty Korean cars are a a fairly recent development.....


Edited by V8 Fireworks, 27 February 2015 - 03:39.


#4 hittheapex

hittheapex
  • Member

  • 1,193 posts
  • Joined: July 14

Posted 27 February 2015 - 04:22

It's a good question. After all, South Korea's era of rapid economic growth and development began around 10 years after Japan's. Despite some similarities in development between the countries, as societies they are not as similar in my view.

 

i think the biggest factors were the priorities of the carmakers. Even now, there are not really any Korean sports cars apart from the Coupe, which then became the Genesis Coupe, but until recently was never close to a pure sports car.

 

By contrast, 1965 saw the release of the Honda S800 and the Toyota 2000GT. Since then we had things like the 240Z, NSX, Supra and direct works involvement in motorsports. Furthermore, the construction of circuits gave aspiring fans and drivers a place to watch and participate in their new hobby. The Suzuki and Fuji circuits were built in the early 1960s, followed by Tsukuba in 1970. Even South Korea's GT series has between a third and 50% of its meagre 8 or 9 races in Japan or China.

 

As teejay said, "win on Sunday, sell on Monday," isn't what it was. I still think it has some value, otherwise we wouldn't see so many manufacturer teams in touring car series, WEC and F1. Japan arguably got directly involved at the peak of that idea and South Korean firms have never had the same interest or commitment as the Japanese. On a purely emotional and interest based sense, it's hard to explain, no easier than explaining why England plays cricket with an interest that most other European nations do not. It's ironic because generally, South Korean drivers are much more aggressive and reckless on the road than the Japanese. I often think that my taxi drivers would be right at home in a racing car.



#5 muramasa

muramasa
  • Member

  • 8,479 posts
  • Joined: November 08

Posted 27 February 2015 - 04:38

Why didn't south korean had a active motorsports culture?

 

I mean Japan was 40 yrs back what S.Korea is now today and its car companies participated in motorsports.

Because population was not big enough and there was no cross border activity.

 

My dream is that Super Formula and Super GT will grow and evolve into Asian Series involving korea, china, malaysia, thailand, vietnum, singapore etc etc. But such idea seems to be too liberal in Japan, altho organizers are actually striving for it.

Perhaps we have to have all out war once, like Europe, in order to have Asian Series. :well:

Hope not, we'll sure achieve it without war  ;)



#6 SenorSjon

SenorSjon
  • Member

  • 17,539 posts
  • Joined: March 12

Posted 27 February 2015 - 08:04

I guess the Korean war is a factor in it. Where the rest of the world was getting an autosport culture, they were busy surviving each other. Building racetracks is low priority when you are rebuilding a country. 



#7 ensign14

ensign14
  • Member

  • 61,756 posts
  • Joined: December 01

Posted 27 February 2015 - 08:29

North Korea was probably better off than South until the mid-70s.  Kim Il-Sung was boss at playing the Soviets and the Chinese off against each other and getting subsidies from each.  Whereas South Korea was largely a fascist dictatorship until the early 1980s - it was being awarded the 1988 Olympics that kick-started the economic boom, and move to democracy, in RoK.  So South Korea was always way behind Japan in the past, and I suppose today it's too late to jump in at the highest levels.



#8 Talisman

Talisman
  • Member

  • 7,073 posts
  • Joined: January 05

Posted 27 February 2015 - 09:22

I guess the Korean war is a factor in it. Where the rest of the world was getting an autosport culture, they were busy surviving each other. Building racetracks is low priority when you are rebuilding a country. 

 

Actually I think its about WW2.

 

If you look at global motorsports with the exception of South America the only countries with a deeprooted interest in motor racing participated in WW2.

 

WW2 gave the opportunity for loads of young guys to experience how to maintain and modify complicated mechanical kit, airfields made the perfect race tracks and the adrenaline buzz and risk taking attitude war tends to promote meant there was a healthy supply of racers prepared to risk their lives to win in the years after the war.  Also given how spread out the fighting was at any one time for most of the military especially in the Pacific there was little to do, giving soldiers the time to tinker with their cars and bikes and race them.

 

Japan was poorer than Europe and the US so it took time for racing to take root after the war but there was a healthy motorbike scene already in the 50s, after all that is where companies and teams like Honda and Suzuki cut their teeth before taking aim at the Isle of Man TT.  Cars came later but IIRC the Skyline GTR was developed primarily for the domestic racing scene so clearly there was a healthy scene in the 60's already.

 

South Korea has not had the equivalent history.  The Korean war was shorter and didn't give Korean men the same opportunity to use their kit to race. 

That said I guess a weakness in that argument is that there were plenty of Korean troops fighting in the Japanese military so...

 

Also Korean car companies are branches of massive conglomerates.  Many Japanese ones are too but there is no Korean equivalent of Honda, a company that set out to race from the very beginning.  Given the expense of racing I think the lack of interest from Korean car makers would have had a strong negative effect on the development of motorracing there.


Edited by Talisman, 27 February 2015 - 09:29.


#9 hittheapex

hittheapex
  • Member

  • 1,193 posts
  • Joined: July 14

Posted 27 February 2015 - 09:27

I guess the Korean war is a factor in it. Where the rest of the world was getting an autosport culture, they were busy surviving each other. Building racetracks is low priority when you are rebuilding a country. 

I thought about that too, but Japan was also severely affected after WW2, sharing the consequences of severely damaged cities and food shortages with South Korea. Both Japan and South Korea were beginning to thrive around 20 years after war devastated their countries, the difference was what the Korean and Japanese car manufacturers and other companies chose to produce.

 

North Korea was probably better off than South until the mid-70s.  Kim Il-Sung was boss at playing the Soviets and the Chinese off against each other and getting subsidies from each.  Whereas South Korea was largely a fascist dictatorship until the early 1980s - it was being awarded the 1988 Olympics that kick-started the economic boom, and move to democracy, in RoK.  So South Korea was always way behind Japan in the past, and I suppose today it's too late to jump in at the highest levels.

 

You are right, but I would add that by the mid 1970s South Korea was well on the way to it's rapid growth in terms of the foundations. The relatively smooth and successful transition to democracy in the late 80s after the turmoil earlier in the decade obviously helped the process even further, but the Vietnam War allowed Korean companies to take advantage of U.S. connections and by the mid 70s there was an estimated $50bn (not inflation adjusted) worth of business for Korean companies in the Middle East, mostly construction contracts. The massive inflows of U.S. aid and loans were paying off by the 1970s too, to the extent that the U.S. felt confident enough of South Korea's stability to bargain hard with aid to encourage the South Korean government to implement policies agreeable to the U.S, in particular dissuading Park Chung Hee from developing nuclear weapons.


Edited by hittheapex, 27 February 2015 - 09:30.


#10 chunder27

chunder27
  • Member

  • 5,775 posts
  • Joined: October 11

Posted 27 February 2015 - 10:45

it has very little to do with war.

 

And everything to do with culture

 

The Asian market (Away from Japan), same as the black American and African markets are not about motorsport. They are about value and luxury.

 

It is why there are very aspiring black and ASian kids wanting to do motorsport in the UK and America (it is getting better)

 

It has always been this way for whatever reason. IN the USA black kids are happy to play field sports like basketball, football. But you dont see so may in ice hockey, baseball. You see lots in track, you dont see any in motorsport.

 

Just culture, nothing else



#11 muramasa

muramasa
  • Member

  • 8,479 posts
  • Joined: November 08

Posted 27 February 2015 - 11:11

I thought about that too, but Japan was also severely affected after WW2, sharing the consequences of severely damaged cities and food shortages with South Korea. Both Japan and South Korea were beginning to thrive around 20 years after war devastated their countries, the difference was what the Korean and Japanese car manufacturers and other companies chose to produce.

which is because of difference in market size that is population. South Korea of now has half the population of Japan but in the 50s, 60s and 70s it was like 20 or 30 something millions whereas Japan had 80mil and 100mil people. So Japan had market big enough to grow and self sustain for many things from cars, racing to electronic appliances.



#12 sopa

sopa
  • Member

  • 12,230 posts
  • Joined: April 07

Posted 27 February 2015 - 11:28

Always enjoy these kind of topics. And interesting to read different points of view.

 

South Korea might be located close to Japan, and they might be doing well in terms of economy, but there are still some major differences in tradition. Hyundai is participating in WRC, but obviously there are still no drivers coming up, and in circuit racing they are almost non-existent.

 

Taiwan I believe is also pretty advanced in economy, but nowhere in car racing. However, Malaysia has been sort of active in motor racing in various ways. I guess heavily influenced by oil giant Petronas. So it looks like in addition to culture and history also geographical and natural factors come into play.

 

Then we have Middle East, and although some of these countries are very rich and even host races, the foundation for tradition and culture of motor racing has also not been there.

 

And for me personally one interesting case is Norway. Though good in rallying and traditionally also rallycross, has never been anywhere in circuit racing.



#13 Talisman

Talisman
  • Member

  • 7,073 posts
  • Joined: January 05

Posted 27 February 2015 - 11:31

it has very little to do with war.

 

And everything to do with culture

 

I've been thinking a bit more about this interesting question and I think the war has everything to do with it.  Your post illustrates that in that you pointed out ethnic groups and nationalities that were largely excluded from participation in the war not having developed an interest in motorsport.  War does affect culture deeply, WW2 especially so.  I can tell you that a lot of Japanese food was introduced to Japan by the military within the 30 years or so up to and including WW2 for example, or that the Korean penchant for spice originated from its use by invading Japanese forces 400 years ago to preserve food.

 

Naturally people compare South Korea and Japan because they are so close geographically and have intertwined histories.  However there are fundamental differences in the structure of the economies that have a big impact on national culture.
 

In order for motorsports to flourish you need a desire to race and also a local infrastructure to support it.  In racing this involved not just circuits but the technical expertise to design and build race cars and bikes.

 

The South Korean economy, probably more so than any country in the world is dependent on a handful of massive conglomerates.  IIRC the big companies like Samsung account for over 50% of economic activity there.  Beneath this level there is a lack of small to medium sized often family owned companies that are the real powerhouse in other economies, whether in Japan, the US or Europe.  These small to medium sized companies in Japan and Europe often develop an incredible degree of expertise in niche areas and these are the kind of companies that you need to let a motorsport industry develop.

 

Therefore in South Korea if the conglomerates aren't interested in racing there simply isn't space within the economy for smaller companies to raise capital to provide technical expertise to support motorsport.  In Japan there is, just as there is in Europe.  It says a lot that Hyundai's WRC involvement which is the only significant South Korean racing project I can think of is European based.

 

The war was important in another way.  It massively increased the number of companies in Japan that could design and develop a motor vehicle or its components.

 

Without the war Toyota would still be an industrial weaving company, Honda would not have raised the capital needed to start his company (which also needed surplus small engines left over from the war), Yamaha would still be limited to being a musical instrument company and a multitude of family owned companies throughout Japan would not have been re-orientated towards high end engineering.  The infrastructure needed to support racing wouldn't have developed.


Edited by Talisman, 27 February 2015 - 11:37.


#14 sopa

sopa
  • Member

  • 12,230 posts
  • Joined: April 07

Posted 27 February 2015 - 11:36

One argument in this thread has been that South Korea has been "lagging behind" Japan in terms of post-WW2 development. And unlike Japan, the foundations have long not been there to establish motorsports culture.

 

But... what about foundations right now? By now South Korea has been well established in terms of economy. Have the foundations been set for South Korea to be active in racing in, say, 20-30 years time? Or not, because car manufacturers have a fundamentally different philosophy, which is not going to change, and "at best" they are going to participate in rallying? What about Daewoo or KIA in WTCC? :D How does that sound?


Edited by sopa, 27 February 2015 - 11:38.


#15 V8 Fireworks

V8 Fireworks
  • Member

  • 10,824 posts
  • Joined: June 06

Posted 27 February 2015 - 11:36

The Asian market (Away from Japan), same as the black American and African markets are not about motorsport. 

 

Malaysian "street racers" 

 

 

Yes and no,   :confused:  Crikey dangerous mind you.  :down:  :down:



#16 muramasa

muramasa
  • Member

  • 8,479 posts
  • Joined: November 08

Posted 27 February 2015 - 12:44

One argument in this thread has been that South Korea has been "lagging behind" Japan in terms of post-WW2 development. And unlike Japan, the foundations have long not been there to establish motorsports culture.

 

But... what about foundations right now? By now South Korea has been well established in terms of economy. Have the foundations been set for South Korea to be active in racing in, say, 20-30 years time? Or not, because car manufacturers have a fundamentally different philosophy, which is not going to change, and "at best" they are going to participate in rallying? What about Daewoo or KIA in WTCC? :D How does that sound?

many things of japan are leftovers from and productions for war. Subaru used to be fighter plane maker, Nikon started as optical supply maker for military, Shinkansen's design team was fighter plane designers, etc etc. So Japan had varying technological foundation, all related to military. S Korea didnt have much of it and was a lot more smaller, so had more tendency to be monopoly and less variety post wwii. Also market size wasnt big enough for many things to grow.

Now they have sufficient foundation, they have some own series. But in order to be really active and grow, they'd still need regional cross border interaction. Even Japan motorsports is shrinking and not big enough, that's why most of recent Japanese drivers in F1 made their careers in Europe, not in Japan. Also Japanese population is shrinking, so Japan needs to expand as well. If pan asian series materialize it will be one super exciting motorsport scene. Should take time and not easy tho, but that's my dream.


Edited by muramasa, 27 February 2015 - 12:45.


#17 noikeee

noikeee
  • Member

  • 23,180 posts
  • Joined: February 06

Posted 27 February 2015 - 12:50

One argument in this thread has been that South Korea has been "lagging behind" Japan in terms of post-WW2 development. And unlike Japan, the foundations have long not been there to establish motorsports culture.

 

But... what about foundations right now? By now South Korea has been well established in terms of economy. Have the foundations been set for South Korea to be active in racing in, say, 20-30 years time? Or not, because car manufacturers have a fundamentally different philosophy, which is not going to change, and "at best" they are going to participate in rallying? What about Daewoo or KIA in WTCC? :D How does that sound?

 

I highly doubt it because we're way past the motorsports boom. Interest in motorsports is fading worldwide, people buy less cars and all the main players in motorsport (manufacturers) are already very established. We might see more involvement from Hyundai, Kia etc but they're not going to become more significant than Mercedes, Renault, VAG, PSA, Toyota, Honda etc.



#18 TheWilliamzer

TheWilliamzer
  • Member

  • 1,205 posts
  • Joined: April 12

Posted 27 February 2015 - 13:02

Like the French say "parce que ça été toujours le cas, putain!" which means "well that's what it ever was.."

 

In sport, there's no rules for nations to flourish in a competition! it's just the way it is! Uruguay are 4 million people and China are 1.6 billion, who's better at football?

 

You can't find answers. Traditions are not enough to justify these things :)



#19 muramasa

muramasa
  • Member

  • 8,479 posts
  • Joined: November 08

Posted 27 February 2015 - 13:24

Like the French say "parce que ça été toujours le cas, putain!" which means "well that's what it ever was.."

 

In sport, there's no rules for nations to flourish in a competition! it's just the way it is! Uruguay are 4 million people and China are 1.6 billion, who's better at football?

 

You can't find answers. Traditions are not enough to justify these things :)

there is definitive answers. technological background, historical context and geographical, social and population conditions etc etc. Uruguay is stronger in football but it has its reason, context and background. Also the condition in one country do change overtime. For example I heard that in uk many footballers and musicians used to come from working class but nowadays the doors to these areas are increasingly being limited to those with wealthy background as well.



Advertisement

#20 Talisman

Talisman
  • Member

  • 7,073 posts
  • Joined: January 05

Posted 27 February 2015 - 13:57

Traditions are not enough to justify these things :)

 

I don't think thats true.  Going by your football analogy there are reasons why China underperforms while Uruguay overperforms.  India is so bad it makes China look like a footballing superpower, in fact India woefully underperforms given its size outside of cricket and maybe tennis.  Are there cultural or traditional reasons why India is a cricketing superpower and not a footballing one?  There must be surely?

 

The disparity in attitudes towards motorsport between South Korea and Japan is colossal, there have to be significant structural reasons why.


Edited by Talisman, 27 February 2015 - 13:58.


#21 sopa

sopa
  • Member

  • 12,230 posts
  • Joined: April 07

Posted 27 February 2015 - 20:51

I don't think thats true.  Going by your football analogy there are reasons why China underperforms while Uruguay overperforms.  India is so bad it makes China look like a footballing superpower, in fact India woefully underperforms given its size outside of cricket and maybe tennis.  Are there cultural or traditional reasons why India is a cricketing superpower and not a footballing one?  There must be surely?

 

The disparity in attitudes towards motorsport between South Korea and Japan is colossal, there have to be significant structural reasons why.

 

Regarding cricket British Commonwealth had a huge influence in spreading the sport . If we look at the main powers in cricket, they are and have been mostly former UK colonies.

 

Difficult to answer about football, but unlike cricket it has been a genuine world-wide sport for a long time already. However, there are regions in the world, who have found their niche in something else and so haven't been committed to football that much. Even if it is still there, just on a lower scale.

 

Interestingly some of these countries, about who we can claim aren't "particularly committed" to football, are some of the biggest countries in the world, like China, India and USA. They are big enough nations to feel that they have their own sports and culture and do not need to take over the football (or, er, I mean soccer :p ) mania.

 

In general I agree there is some reasoning behind all major developments. It just takes a bit of effort to dig deep and get closer to understanding. :)


Edited by sopa, 27 February 2015 - 20:56.


#22 Nathan

Nathan
  • Member

  • 6,922 posts
  • Joined: February 00

Posted 28 February 2015 - 00:56

You need race tracks, or raceable roads....

 

I notice Filipinos have a strong passion for motorsports.



#23 ensign14

ensign14
  • Member

  • 61,756 posts
  • Joined: December 01

Posted 28 February 2015 - 09:14

That's fitting, I have a strong passion for Filipinas.



#24 ronsingapore

ronsingapore
  • Member

  • 103 posts
  • Joined: November 14

Posted 02 March 2015 - 03:24

it has very little to do with war.

 

And everything to do with culture

 

The Asian market (Away from Japan), same as the black American and African markets are not about motorsport. They are about value and luxury.

 

It is why there are very aspiring black and ASian kids wanting to do motorsport in the UK and America (it is getting better)

 

It has always been this way for whatever reason. IN the USA black kids are happy to play field sports like basketball, football. But you dont see so may in ice hockey, baseball. You see lots in track, you dont see any in motorsport.

 

Just culture, nothing else

 

I wish that was true, but car racing is very popular among a very small group of Hong Kongers;especially for Japanese cars; unfortunately, Hong Kong's population is so small and the racing scene in Hong Kong is so minuscule, it barely has any impact.

 

Motorbike racing is quite extreme in Malaysia; especially "unofficial" ones, riding on japanese bikes.



#25 ronsingapore

ronsingapore
  • Member

  • 103 posts
  • Joined: November 14

Posted 02 March 2015 - 03:26

many things of japan are leftovers from and productions for war. Subaru used to be fighter plane maker, Nikon started as optical supply maker for military, Shinkansen's design team was fighter plane designers, etc etc. So Japan had varying technological foundation, all related to military. S Korea didnt have much of it and was a lot more smaller, so had more tendency to be monopoly and less variety post wwii. Also market size wasnt big enough for many things to grow.

Now they have sufficient foundation, they have some own series. But in order to be really active and grow, they'd still need regional cross border interaction. Even Japan motorsports is shrinking and not big enough, that's why most of recent Japanese drivers in F1 made their careers in Europe, not in Japan. Also Japanese population is shrinking, so Japan needs to expand as well. If pan asian series materialize it will be one super exciting motorsport scene. Should take time and not easy tho, but that's my dream.

 

But in terms of culture, Japan's culture is somewhat like Galapalagos, I think there was an research article on this.

 

I have been thinking since I started this thread and one possibility is that S.Korea's middle-class does not have enough disposable income to spend consumer dollars on motorsports.