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UK prepared early 1965 Saloon car Ford Mustangs (BRSCC)


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#51 RS2000

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Posted 11 March 2015 - 19:55

Tony Gorst rally driver? (Winner N. Wales Car Club Cambrian Rally 1959).



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#52 pete53

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Posted 11 March 2015 - 20:40

"Lest but not least: Do anybody know what happened with the Gawain Ballies car after he stopped racing with it (it was sold)?????"

 

Tony Gorst raced the car a couple of times at Oulton but I believe Richard Bond bought the car in the latter part of 1966 - he drove it at the Oulton Gold Cup meeting Saloon event in September.


Edited by pete53, 11 March 2015 - 20:41.


#53 ERIKZ

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Posted 12 March 2015 - 00:01

Autosport magazine notes the Jackie Oliver Mustang as the ex-Ken Baker car and it was green?  Has there been any descision on if Jackie Oliver ran two different Mustangs since one of the models looks to have larger fender well mods?  Makes you wonder if the 758H Mustang, the initial prototype Mustang, is the Gwaine Baille Mustang since Scuderia Filipinneti had DPK4B (Pius Zund), DPK5B was Mike Salmon's car, DPK6B was run by Roy Pierpoint, DPK7B was run by Skip Scott/Holman Moody at the end of 1964 (Nassau) and at Daytona in February 1965 and then it was off to Canada for magazine testing by "Canadian Track and Traffic" against the Comstock Racing Notchback.....DPG3B is noted to have been refurbished by Alan Mann after the 1964 Liege-Sofia rally and driven by Alan Mann at Brands Hatch.....there is a photo of the so called white Mustang at Silverstone with the exact same body mods, paint scheme and hood scoop on the car when Alan ran the car at Brands but the plate is DPJ8B:

 

http://www.racebears...21-157ca7bde0d2

 

So what happened to DPG3B?

 

Also, during the mid-point of 1965 did the plates on the Alan Mann cars travel to a new batch of  white and double blue stripe Mustangs run under the Alan Mann banner at several of the ETCC (June/Nurburgring, June/Zolder (there was a spare Alan Mann red Mustang in the pits using the ABP325B plate swapped from the Ickx Mustang?), August/Karlskoga, August/Zandvoort) , and a few of the BSCC (June/Crystal Palace, July/Silvestone) races....at least they look to be new cars instead of repainted red ones.



#54 PonysiteEd

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Posted 12 March 2015 - 07:30

Hi Erik, I think in Alan Mann book is written that Alan Mann does not remember why they were painted blue/white. Actually that was a common practice to use american racing cars in white/blue livery over here to identify them better, at least in some countries. UK cars in racing green etc. It may have been a time of transition at that period.
It makes sense that they got painted with the Neerpasch team.

 

John Grant told me that swapping door numbers and plates was sort of sports back then to pretend cars to journalists like with the #83 changing from DPK7B to DPK6B for all the mag reports, since DPK7B was not available after the TDF.
I think seeing the full video TDF 64 coverage, I had once spotted even a changed door plate on the participating cars, but it might be better not to follow that up:-).
Your linked picture seems to verify that, playing with licence plate stickers to ease import/export of untaxed cars. A common practice btw, that other racers played as well. The french TDF car had to be raced with belgium plates, since Ford France had a problem at that time.

 

DPG3B looked like this below after the crash. The lights turned off and Bo was blind in the night. Taking off and down the sideroad. John Grant says, it was written off. And from memory I think he said, it was left on the site, but that may have to be confirmed.

Merwin_DPG3B_liegeb.jpg


Edited by PonysiteEd, 12 March 2015 - 07:44.


#55 PonysiteEd

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Posted 12 March 2015 - 07:42

BTW to confuse the story a bit more..actually in Passinos rallye program papers 5 Mustangs were delivered overseas together with the 2 Liege cars , one going to a Herb Nobb. If that rings any bell for somebody? DR?
Alan Mann said he got 2 out of those 5 only, confirmed by John Grant. The TDF cars came later.



#56 PonysiteEd

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Posted 12 March 2015 - 08:00

And here is another pic of the survivor from Liege (curiously enough without headbeams) at Brands Hatch and without licence plate. Alan Mann told me drove this car only in this livery at the delayed Boxing Day event (due to snow). But you can spot the plexi side windows. Ken Bakers car far right.

alanbrandshatchweb.jpg



#57 ERIKZ

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Posted 12 March 2015 - 09:09

Thanks Wolfgang.....it's clear as mud now.....lots of plate swaping going on, makes tracking down which car is which very difficult.  I've attached links to some of the other photos that I was talking about earlier concerning the plate issue and the change in color to the American Team colors of white/blue stripes (you'll note that the chipped painted areas on the front valance panels do not look to have any red paint showing....and the same thing goes for the crowded underhood shot....from the looks of it, the Mustangs looked to have been mostly disassemblied body panel wise for a complete respray in the USA theme).

 

https://revslib.stan...log/rr756ts2144

 

https://revslib.stan...log/dk391dj0098

 

https://revslib.stan...log/nr828rv6992



#58 JanAlsemgeest

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Posted 12 March 2015 - 10:10

-The Jackie Oliver Mustang .... was green?
-758H is the Gwaine Baille Mustang?
-Scuderia Filipinneti had DPK4B (Pius Zund)
-then it was off to Canada for magazine testing by "Canadian Track and Traffic" against the Comstock Racing Notchback
-they look to be new cars instead of repainted red ones.

Dear Eric, normally I would thanks people for their input but let me say first that the facts you mentioned (the correct ones!) were all known to me. The other ones I have remarks on. All my research is mainly based on genuine photo's (they thell always the true), respected magazines, selecting true information in books and the internet. In that direction of importance to me. I always try to verify facts one way or another. Certain "general used facts" turned out to be wrong or based on no evidence (known) at all.
About your remarks:
Is there any other proof Oliver's car was "green"? I never heard or read about it.

I never said 758H is Baillies car. I think the Pius Zund Mustang does have the genuine DPK-4B licence plate but not more than that. NOT the genuine forth (corrected!) spare TDF car (DPL-4B?). As far as a know Mr. Alan Mann never mentioned officially one of the TDF cars went to Pius Zund.
I think the Pius Zund car is one of the pilot production run hardtops. The reasons mentioned earlier. I could add to this as a plausible evident that it had the black dash crash pad. On page 137 of Mustang Genisis (Robert A. Fria) is stated that all Mustangs where planned with Black dash pads only. The change to a pad colour matching the interiour was made late in the design project so it was plausible that coulered matching dash pads were not available for the proto run (pilot test) Mustangs.
I could add that I personally think Mr Alan Mann followed an order to scrapp the prototype car (after returned the car to UK) and used parts (roof? good, fenders, extensions, windows, etc). to repair the crashed Bosse Lungtfeldt DPG-3B. There is not much proof for that (other than that the repaired Boxing Day car also had a hood without the F O R D lettering.....).
Coincident? All other AMR cars had FORD lettered hoods.....

Regarding the Comstock story: Did you read it? The first 3 words are the most important.
The rest I find rubbish (I doubt if the they tested the car as the rear axle modifications made to the TDF cars are highly positive described in all other TDF car road tests...) Maybe Shelby, H&M or Comstock forgotten to tighten the various bolts after inspection of the DPK-7B modificatons...

What happened to DPG-3B?
Repared and sold with number plate DPJ-8B. Confusing, yes but it's to late to complain for that...

All 3 white blue ETCC cars were repainted red cars (as far as I can see).

For the question which AMR Mustang is ABP-325B I have a theory but to less evident. Therefor I better could not post it.

Nevertheless, thanks for the reply.

Edited by JanAlsemgeest, 09 February 2019 - 15:31.


#59 pete53

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Posted 12 March 2015 - 10:58

And here is another pic of the survivor from Liege (curiously enough without headbeams) at Brands Hatch and without licence plate. Alan Mann told me drove this car only in this livery at the delayed Boxing Day event (due to snow). But you can spot the plexi side windows. Ken Bakers car far right.

alanbrandshatchweb.jpg

As a matter of interest this picture was taken at the 1965 Boxing Day Brands meeting. You can see the DR Fab Mustang is now fitted with wide wheels, and was driven by Jackie Oliver on this occasion.



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#60 JanAlsemgeest

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Posted 12 March 2015 - 11:13

BTW to confuse the story a bit more..actually in Passinos rallye program papers 5 Mustangs were delivered overseas together with the 2 Liege cars , one going to a Herb Nobb. If that rings any bell for somebody? DR?
Alan Mann said he got 2 out of those 5 only, confirmed by John Grant. The TDF cars came later.

It's not confusing. That the story I did refer in my 7 March post. Herb Nobb? I have to go through my files.

Edited by JanAlsemgeest, 12 March 2015 - 11:29.


#61 bradbury west

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Posted 12 March 2015 - 11:23

For those who might be interested, I recall that there is a detailed test and write up, including performance figures,  of ZE1050, one of the Monte Ford Falcons, tested my Motorsport in their March 1964 issue

Roger Lund



#62 tjmann

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Posted 12 March 2015 - 13:16

Yes definitely!



#63 JanAlsemgeest

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Posted 12 March 2015 - 15:02

Yes definitely!


Me too, Roger! Thanks!

#64 ERIKZ

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Posted 12 March 2015 - 18:44

To Jan:

 

What's the first race that you have noted for the Jackie Oliver Mustang?  I see that Jackie Oliver and Keith Schellenberg were both in Mustangs at the August 15, 1965 Croft Spring Grove Championship (August 20, 1966-Autosport issue). 



#65 JanAlsemgeest

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Posted 12 March 2015 - 20:09

Erik, In Mustangs?? No GT cars?
I really have no idea. I do not have all copies of the magazines. I will have to check my files to see what information I already gathered. Put it on my to-do list.
best regards, Jan

Edited by JanAlsemgeest, 13 March 2015 - 11:05.


#66 JanAlsemgeest

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Posted 14 March 2015 - 10:47

And here is another pic of the survivor from Liege (curiously enough without headbeams) at Brands Hatch and without licence plate. Alan Mann told me drove this car only in this livery at the delayed Boxing Day event (due to snow). But you can spot the plexi side windows. Ken Bakers car far right.

alanbrandshatchweb.jpg

 

 

As a matter of interest this picture was taken at the 1965 Boxing Day Brands meeting. You can see the DR Fab Mustang is now fitted with wide wheels, and was driven by Jackie Oliver on this occasion.

 

Could it be the (1rst!) 1965 Boxing Day meeting that was stopped because of all the ice on the circuit (23-24 dec 1964)?

On the postponed Boxing Day race of January 31 1965 the Alan Mann Mustang can be seen with the fender headlight exensions (E.g. see the image in the Motor racing magazine of March 1965, page 128). That meeting Alan Mann won as well (first Mustang victory on a UK circuit............).



#67 PonysiteEd

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Posted 14 March 2015 - 14:01

Could it be the (1rst!) 1965 Boxing Day meeting that was stopped because of all the ice on the circuit (23-24 dec 1964)?

On the postponed Boxing Day race of January 31 1965 the Alan Mann Mustang can be seen with the fender headlight exensions (E.g. see the image in the Motor racing magazine of March 1965, page 128). That meeting Alan Mann won as well (first Mustang victory on a UK circuit............).

Alan is quoted in the Tony Dron book that he used the car at the qualifications on Christmas eve 1964 there, but it showed some engine problems. Not sure if "qualifications" for the Boxing day were done as what looks like a normal race start like here.

 

In the background of the pic without headlights you don't see any ice on this pic, so I guess this is the qualification day and/or a "fun run". Still mysterious that there are so many cars visible in the background for a fun run. Makes only sense if typically many attended qualification runs. Insider knowledge is appreciated.
 



#68 pete53

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Posted 14 March 2015 - 16:56

Just to clarify one or two points. I am not sure about practice for the '64 Boxing Day meeting, but the event itself was called off because of ice and snow on the circuit. The rearranged meeting at the end of January was apparently extremely cold but dry. As mentioned Alan Mann won the Saloon race in the Mustang, whilst Ken Baker gave the fastback Mustang its debut, but it retired.

 

The 1965 Boxing Day meeting was also very cold but went ahead as scheduled. Photos taken on the day show quite a thick frost on the outfield and infield - there is a picture on the cover of the Feb 1966 Motor Sport which shows the Felday sports racer with very white frosted grass surrounding the track.



#69 PonysiteEd

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Posted 14 March 2015 - 19:14

Getting to the details: here is a close-up pic of the actual  January, 31th 1965 Boxing Day event (Autosport Feb, 5th, 1965). Different scenario in the tigth front row, so could be still only soon after the start or 1st round maybe .

Makes sense that the Mustang got in those 4 weeks time after Christmas eve some more detailing and rebuild (note the front valance without a cut-out)  after the  practice run (?), the DPJ8B plate here however seems to be the original one.  (instead of the sticker on the linked DPJ8B Silverstone pic from racebears.uk, which has again another front valance) .

 

DPJ8B_BoxingDayJan1965.jpg
Ken Bakers car indeed hit a Mini as reported in that Autosport issue.


Edited by PonysiteEd, 14 March 2015 - 19:17.


#70 JanAlsemgeest

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Posted 14 March 2015 - 21:45

The valance without cut out could be an optical illusion as they placed (partially) a white cardboard before the radiator to keep the engine temp. high on those cold January day (I think). Please check yourself.

Edited by JanAlsemgeest, 14 March 2015 - 21:46.


#71 ERIKZ

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Posted 15 March 2015 - 00:28

So is it Ron Fry behind the wheel on DPJ8B/DPG3B....(Silverstone 1968)? 

 

http://www.racebears...21-157ca7bde0d2

 

Didn't Jacky Ickx run a red colored Mustang in at least two events.....one event with the DPK6B plate and one event with the ABP325B?  Which Mustang did Keith Schellenberg run?  Is the photo below the Basil van Rooyen Mustang?  Bill Shaw is noted as running a white Mustang in 1966 also.

 

http://www.racebears...f2-7b702bba6460

 

Jan don't forget to take in to account for accidents that these Mustangs were involved in for some of the body and badges changes along the way?



#72 JanAlsemgeest

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Posted 15 March 2015 - 09:09

Didn't Jacky Ickx run a red colored Mustang in at least two events.....one event with the DPK6B plate and one event with the ABP325B? Which Mustang did Keith Schellenberg run? Is the photo below the Basil van Rooyen Mustang? Bill Shaw is noted as running a white Mustang in 1966 also.

Jan don't forget to take in to account for accidents that these Mustangs were involved in for some of the body and badges changes along the way?

Jacky Ixck did not race in the red car if I'm correct. The ETCC cars were white Blue. Mr Alan Man sometimes used one (or 2) of his Mustangs for Local drivers. Most ABP325B was the car for that.
In the book Live of Chance clear list is of all the races. For myself the ETCC race car history of is clear.

Eric, indeed I did take this in account and therefore it is the most important to me what the details are in the first appearance. That's counts.
But if, for example, a race car does not have the chrome side sculptures and later it does have than I'm curious what happened (you don't going to drill 6 extra holes in a "race" car necesarry to mount it because it looks better. It can but it is no normally practice.

Further I hope that the post will be used related to the questions ask in the beginning and following those answers.
Thanks everybody for their input

Edited by JanAlsemgeest, 15 March 2015 - 18:49.


#73 john wood

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Posted 16 March 2015 - 14:06

I saw Jackie Oliver's light blue Mustang twice in 1966 at events which I don't think have been mentioned previously:
Crystal Palace 6th August BRSCC meeting race number 143
Croft 14th August W.D. & H.O. Wills Trophy meeting race number 88
Nick Georgano's 'Encyclopaedia of motor sport', p.454 shows a photo of Oliver's car at the Crystal Palace meeting racing with Roy Pierpoint's Falcon and Doc Merfield's V8 Cortina in heavy rain.

I also saw Keith Schellenberg's Mustang at Croft on 30 August 1965 - registration number DPJ 8B, race number 16. The car was painted white with twin longitudinal black stripes and black wheels. He raced his Cobra and Bentley on the same day.

He also took part with the (same?) Mustang in a hillclimb at Harewood on 26th November 1966; the programme for this meeting can be seen at:
http://harewoodhillh...V-Hillclimb.pdf

Edited by john wood, 11 March 2024 - 08:54.


#74 pete53

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Posted 16 March 2015 - 14:47

So is it Ron Fry behind the wheel on DPJ8B/DPG3B....(Silverstone 1968)? 

 

http://www.racebears...21-157ca7bde0d2

 

Didn't Jacky Ickx run a red colored Mustang in at least two events.....one event with the DPK6B plate and one event with the ABP325B?  Which Mustang did Keith Schellenberg run?  Is the photo below the Basil van Rooyen Mustang?  Bill Shaw is noted as running a white Mustang in 1966 also.

 

http://www.racebears...f2-7b702bba6460

 

Jan don't forget to take in to account for accidents that these Mustangs were involved in for some of the body and badges changes along the way?

That is definitely the Van Rooyen Mustang - taken at Brands during the Guards Trophy meet. Bill Shaw did race a Mustang but only fairly briefly. He certainly raced the car at the Motor Show 200 meeting in Oct 1966. I don't think that is the Ron Fry Mustang - or not as he drove it. I have found a front-on photo of Fry's Mustang in Motoring News ( 8 Aug 1968) and it looks to have a fairly standard front ( minus bumper and number plate) with the Mustang badge still in place. If you zoom in I think the name on the side indicates it being Brian Cutting's car.


Edited by pete53, 16 March 2015 - 15:07.


#75 ERIKZ

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Posted 16 March 2015 - 16:17

Thanks Pete and John on the Mustang updates for the Schellenberg and Rooyen cars.  I have the Schellenberg Mustang involved in a minor accident at the August 15, 1965-Croft, Eng.-BARC-Spring Grove Championship races.  Ron Fry is noted to have just purchased his Mustang right before the July 1968 Silverstone Invitational Saloon Race.

 

Erik



#76 JanAlsemgeest

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Posted 16 March 2015 - 18:07

Thanks John, Pete, Erik for all the input.
I will check the details a.s.a.p.
Erik: you were right, Jacky Ickx indeed raced the red Mustang as wel in the Belgium Championship Saloon cars. First with DPK-6B, later with the ABP-325B.
Interesting, thanks. Now fill it in in my time-table.
Keep on posting, e-mailing Jan.alsemgeest@gmail.com :-)

Edited by JanAlsemgeest, 17 March 2015 - 09:25.


#77 David Wright

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Posted 19 March 2015 - 22:06

There is an article on the DR Racing Mustang in the June 30th 1967 edition of Autosport, written by Jackie Oliver.

 

This article states for the 66 season Ken Baker imported a Mustang saloon car shell, to use with the previous year's Fastback who's bodyshell wasn't allowed in the British Saloon Car Championship.  It also states the same car was used with improvements in 1967.



#78 bradbury west

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Posted 19 March 2015 - 22:31

ISTR that Autosport also carried a track test of a Falcon Sprint, done by Paddy McNally. I will try and locate it after Goodwood this weekend.

Roger Lund



#79 JanAlsemgeest

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Posted 23 March 2015 - 09:20

Brands Hatch, Kingsley & Windsor Hotel Meeting, Sunday April 24th 1966:

#161 H. Marsden, Ford Falcon, 4727 c.c., White/Blue

RGDS RLT

The topic applies to Ford Mustangs. Ford Falcons are (very) nice indeed but not applicable to answer our (my) questions.
Best regards, Jan

Edited by JanAlsemgeest, 25 March 2015 - 17:47.


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#80 JanAlsemgeest

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Posted 25 March 2015 - 20:39

"Last but not least: Do anybody know what happened with the Gawain Ballies car after he stopped racing with it (it was sold)?????"

Tony Gorst raced the car a couple of times at Oulton but I believe Richard Bond bought the car in the latter part of 1966 - he drove it at the Oulton Gold Cup meeting Saloon event in September.


Dear Erik, could you supply more info of Tony Gorst? I did search and I could not find that he raced with a Ford Mustang in that period (1965 till 1968?). I found that he raced with an Lotus Cortina....
That's not help (I concentrate on Mustangs).
Thanks in advance.

#81 pete53

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Posted 25 March 2015 - 21:26

Dear Erik, could you supply more info of Tony Gorst? I did search and I could not find that he raced with a Ford Mustang in that period (1965 till 1968?). I found that he raced with an Lotus Cortina....
That's not help (I concentrate on Mustangs).
Thanks in advance.

Gorst definitely raced the Mustang on at least three occasions in 1966 - all at Oulton Park. May 7th 3rd place. 28th May 1st. 4th June 2nd.  Gorst appeared to be very much a one circuit specialist.

There is a photo of him the car in the 13th May edition of Autosport.

 

https://www.flickr.c...03/16744273429/

 

Oulton Park 7th May 1966.


Edited by pete53, 25 March 2015 - 21:47.


#82 group7

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Posted 26 March 2015 - 00:33

did not one of the ex TDF Mustangs, driven by Skip Scott & Charlie Hayes run as a GT350 proto, under the Essex Wire banner at the the Daytona 2000 race in 1965 ? also didn't Robin Smith suffer a medical issue and crash one of the ex Alan Mann Mustangs at Silverstone, early 1968 ? was that car written off ? my apologies if this is off topic or has been brought up in this thread before !

 

group7 in Canada


Edited by group7, 26 March 2015 - 01:17.


#83 JanAlsemgeest

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Posted 26 March 2015 - 06:48

Thanks Pete! That's useable information.
You made my day.

@group7: those details are known to me and can be found on the site from Wolfgang: www.ponysite.de

Edited by JanAlsemgeest, 26 March 2015 - 06:49.


#84 pete53

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Posted 26 March 2015 - 10:05

did not one of the ex TDF Mustangs, driven by Skip Scott & Charlie Hayes run as a GT350 proto, under the Essex Wire banner at the the Daytona 2000 race in 1965 ? also didn't Robin Smith suffer a medical issue and crash one of the ex Alan Mann Mustangs at Silverstone, early 1968 ? was that car written off ? my apologies if this is off topic or has been brought up in this thread before !

 

group7 in Canada

Robin Smith was killed in his Mustang at Silverstone in April 1968 ( the same weekend as Jim Clark died at Hockenheim). There was some suggestion at the time that he had suffered heart failure / blacked out  immediately prior to the crash as it was reported  that the car went straight on into the bank at Woodcote without there being any apparent attempt by the driver to slow down. The car was very badly damaged but what became of it I don't don't know.


Edited by pete53, 26 March 2015 - 10:05.


#85 AAGR

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Posted 01 April 2015 - 09:13

For tjmann :

 

I have PM'd you. Please reply.

 

AAGR



#86 Simon Hadfield

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Posted 01 April 2015 - 13:56

There is a very learned and scholarly article in the current issue of Mustang Monthly quoting a gentleman who has undertaken the most impressive investigation into the very beginnings of Mustang production. There he suggests that all the cars sent to Alan Mann were pre-production cars - ie not the very first hand built cars but the cars built to prove the production lines.  It is a most interesting article.



#87 JanAlsemgeest

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Posted 01 April 2015 - 17:57

There is a very learned and scholarly article in the current issue of Mustang Monthly quoting a gentleman who has undertaken the most impressive investigation into the very beginnings of Mustang production. There he suggests that all the cars sent to Alan Mann were pre-production cars - ie not the very first hand built cars but the cars built to prove the production lines. It is a most interesting article.

Indeed Simon.
Robert A. Fria did wrote the book "Mustang Genisis". It is a very nice and detailed book which described the whole process which result in the populair Ford Mustang. I could recommend it to all automotive fans.
I already has this book and quote part of it in earlier posts (he stated that the first idea was that all production Mustangs would get Black dash pads only).
The first Mustang that was sent to Alan Mann was a so called "pilot car" (see page 144). All others were (pre) production cars.
Thanks for remind us.

Edited by JanAlsemgeest, 01 April 2015 - 18:35.


#88 tjmann

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Posted 02 April 2015 - 08:42

Indeed Simon.
Robert A. Fria did wrote the book "Mustang Genisis". It is a very nice and detailed book which described the whole process which result in the populair Ford Mustang. I could recommend it to all automotive fans.
I already has this book and quote part of it in earlier posts (he stated that the first idea was that all production Mustangs would get Black dash pads only).
The first Mustang that was sent to Alan Mann was a so called "pilot car" (see page 144). All others were (pre) production cars.
Thanks for remind us.

 

Is this magazine sold in shops in the UK or do you have to subscribe?



#89 Alan Cox

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Posted 02 April 2015 - 13:14

Is this magazine sold in shops in the UK or do you have to subscribe?

http://www.themagazi...ang Monthly.htm



#90 PonysiteEd

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Posted 03 April 2015 - 08:22

Tom - to set this a bit back on track.
Bob Fria relied in his book - in quoting "a report says" in his book on my then already published interview with Alan Mann and John Grant about the pilot car indicating it as the 5S07_100003 car. It is obvious then that his other collected documentation does not show clearly the hand-assembled cars VIN by VIN nor their usage. We had been in touch over that when he was writing his book.

John Grant (ex-mechanic of Alan Mann) remembering and stating repeatedly after several visits "3" on the pilot car.  The pre-production car 100003 was a convertible and used at the New York World fair. Thus a number 3 could only be an Alan Plant hand-assembled pilot car. There is no documentary proof for that. Could be still it was 100030 (which is on papers sent to Alan Mann aside from the #25 and #26 Liege cars, but sent earlier by plane to get the suspension tests done in February 1964 based on the Monte experience and to prepare the rallye program that Ford had in mind. Makes at least sense.

Lee Holman rembered #30 when I met him last years, but he takes a lot from suggestive e-mails, which he piles on his table, so the 30 is a piece of memory that also needs to be put in context.

Tom, if you have any paperwork in addition in your box about the early February 1964 car, that would be perfect to clarify the myth about the Alan plant hand-assembled pilot or #30  (or any other) preproduction car.


Edited by PonysiteEd, 03 April 2015 - 08:23.


#91 JanAlsemgeest

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Posted 03 April 2015 - 10:43

Many thanks for clarifying the issue..
This is valuable information for all of us.

#92 JanAlsemgeest

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Posted 01 November 2015 - 15:38

I think the Pius Zünd Mustang does have the genuine DPK-4B licence plate but not more than that. As far as a know Mr. Alan Mann never mentioned officially one of the TDF cars went to Pius Zünd.
I think the Pius Zünd car is one of the pilot test hardtops. The reasons mentioned earlier (see my post of 11 March). I could add to this as a plausible evident that it had the black dash crash pad. On page 137 of Mustang Genisis (Robert A. Fria) is stated that all Mustangs where planned with Black dash pads only. The change to a pad colour matching the interiour was made late in the design project so it was plausible that coulered matching dash pads were not available for the proto run.

I see the news that Wolgang found the 4th TDF mustang (check "Breaking News" on http://www.ponysite.de/index.htm ). He will suply details later after he publish his findings.
It makes more sence that the Pius Zünd Mustang indeed is the Mustang Pilot car that was sent to Alan Mann early in 1964. That is a relief for me as I was always sure that the Jack Brabham car was not a "K" code Mustang (2018 correction: My memory was wrong! It wàs a K-code car!!!). Good news for all of us. Now I can more focus on the remaning non K-code Alan Mann Mustangs.

I'm still need more info so if someone got details one way or annother, please reply.

Edited by JanAlsemgeest, 09 February 2019 - 15:51.


#93 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 01 November 2015 - 21:58

Having glimpsed through this thread I feel like so much racing in the UK lots of smoke and mirrors were used. Changing numberplates and VIN or ID plates was so common. Cars were crashed and shells changed using the ID of the old one. Actually illegal but seemingly never enforced.

At near 50 years I bet the memory is A very selective B very suspect anyway.

This has happened every where in the world with Production cars as well as 'proper' racing cars too.

Read Alan Browns site re open wheel IDs



#94 group7

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Posted 02 November 2015 - 04:37

there are a couple of pictures of Pius Zund in the "Filipinetti" Mustang (DKK4B)  at Gaisberg climb september '65 on an Austrian site I've found. I cannot post here, nor for the life of me can I  do a link right to the pics on the the site  :confused:  here.  :stoned:

 

   edit:   http://www.technischesmuseum.at  finally here is a link, with the language barrier, it is not easy to navigate. but put gaisbergrennen1965 in the search box, and you should go to the pics. sorry about all these complications. there are some quite amazing images there !

 

Mike (group7)


Edited by group7, 02 November 2015 - 04:46.


#95 JanAlsemgeest

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Posted 02 November 2015 - 09:23

there are a couple of pictures of Pius Zund in the "Filipinetti" Mustang (DKK4B) at Gaisberg climb september '65 on an Austrian site I've found.

Mike (group7)


Dear Mike. Great pictures! "Some" not known to me. Thanks!
This is what we looking for. Thanks again. Jan


Edited by JanAlsemgeest, 02 November 2015 - 11:49.