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#1 kayemod

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Posted 09 March 2015 - 13:01

When the latest copy of Motor Sport arrived, as always, the first thing I looked at was the contents page. What caught my eye was an interview with Gordon Coppuck, and having worked with the man many years ago, this was the first thing I turned to. I was a little surprised by a few of the comments, not Gordon's but from the writer, Rob Widdows. I was puzzled by "...rarely mentioned when motor racing's most influential designers are discussed..." and several other phrases in the same vein. As anyone who knew Gordon would agree, apart from being a really nice guy, he was modest and unassuming to a fault, never one to shout about what he was doing, unlike a few of his peers, but in most people's opinion at the time, one of the top guys in his field, his employers all held him in very high esteem, McLaren (the original version) especially.  Rob Widdows usually knows what he’s writing about, so I was surprised by his “forgotten man” tone. Maybe Gordon isn’t often talked about these days, but neither are Gerard Ducarouge, Tony Southgate, Maurice Philippe etc, but he certainly was at the time he was active, I know that Colin Chapman for one, really admired his M23 design, and McLaren’s execution of it. Gordon must be almost 80 now, and my only regret about RW’s too short piece is that it probably means that we won’t be getting a “lunch with” feature on Gordon, a few more of his reminiscences would have been great. I’m not suggesting anything as crass as a “top 10 of racing car designers”, but I’m sure that most TNFs would include the Coppuck name in it, his record of winning cars alone should put him there, what do the rest of you think?



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#2 arttidesco

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Posted 09 March 2015 - 13:29

I had the privilege of being taken around the McLaren factory by Mr Coppuck one Saturday a matter of weeks after James had sealed the deal in Japan. I remember being struck by how matter of fact Mr Coppuck seemed about it all, as in all in a days work :up:



#3 PCC

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Posted 09 March 2015 - 14:20

...I’m sure that most TNFs would include the Coppuck name in it, his record of winning cars alone should put him there, what do the rest of you think?

I'm sure you're right, but in a way your question proves Rob Widdows' point. If the topic were Colin Chapman, or Mauro Forghieri, or Gordon Murray, you wouldn't need to ask what everyone thought. If anyone were brave enough to attempt a TNF search, I expect the name Coppuck would come up a lot less frequently than those. Not because he was any less good, but because he is talked about less.



#4 PCC

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Posted 09 March 2015 - 14:24

I know that Colin Chapman for one, really admired his M23 design, and McLaren’s execution of it.

Do you know to what extent Coppuck was involved in McLaren's Indy project? Because that was a pretty fine piece of machinery too...



#5 f1steveuk

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Posted 09 March 2015 - 14:47

That will be journalism then!



#6 kayemod

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Posted 09 March 2015 - 15:45

Do you know to what extent Coppuck was involved in McLaren's Indy project? Because that was a pretty fine piece of machinery too...

 

He worked on the M6 & M7A with Robin Herd, and after Robin left McLaren, Gordon did the M8, M6GT, later M7s, M10, M12 etc, sometimes with Jo Marquart, but as far as I know the M15 & M16 500 winners were all down to him, as was the less successful M24. The F1 M23 & M26 were both credited to Gordon as well, so as the MS article points out, the only man to design the both F1 champion and the Indy 500 winner in the same year, and he achieved that twice. Quite a record.



#7 Michael Ferner

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Posted 09 March 2015 - 18:53

The M23 is still my favourite car of all time, it was THE F1 car when I was growing up! But the M24, iirc, was designed by John Barnard, wasn't it?

#8 kayemod

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Posted 09 March 2015 - 19:37

The M23 is still my favourite car of all time, it was THE F1 car when I was growing up! But the M24, iirc, was designed by John Barnard, wasn't it?

 

Indycars are more your area than mine Michael, but as far as I know, Gordon did the design work on all M16s up to the M16D, John Barnard was credited with the final M16E version which raced in 75/76. I think that by the time the M24 raced JB had gone over to Chaparral to do the 2K, which changed everyone's thinking. In concept, the M24 was based on the M23 design, which was of course all Gordon's, but JB may well have had some input into the M24, I can't remember when he moved on.



#9 retriever

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Posted 09 March 2015 - 21:22

Gordon Coppuck really deserved considerably more column inches than what was alloted in the Widdows article.  As Kayemod states this will probably mean that he will not feature in a 'Lunch with' article which is a real shame especially more so as Alastair Caldwell was featured recently in that series.



#10 larryd

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Posted 10 March 2015 - 16:44

I've never been particularly impressed by Mr Widdows's writing in MS, and this piece on Gordon Coppuck does nothing to alter my opinion.

 

Having said that, I see no obstruction to Simon Taylor doing a "Lunch With" at some time in the near future, and very much look forward to reading it.



#11 Nigel Beresford

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Posted 10 March 2015 - 18:44

Indycars are more your area than mine Michael, but as far as I know, Gordon did the design work on all M16s up to the M16D, John Barnard was credited with the final M16E version which raced in 75/76. I think that by the time the M24 raced JB had gone over to Chaparral to do the 2K, which changed everyone's thinking. In concept, the M24 was based on the M23 design, which was of course all Gordon's, but JB may well have had some input into the M24, I can't remember when he moved on.

 

Indeed, JB left McLaren for VPJ in 1975, as detailed in "The DFX Files" in Motorsport of March 2013, so he'd have had no input to the M24. Although outwardly similar, the construction of the chassis' of the M23 and the M24 was very different indeed. I can't remember who was responsible for the car (John Baldwin?) but John Barnard wasn't. Whatever the specifics, Gordon, as Chief Designer, was probably still ultimately responsible for all the products of the Colnbrook D.O.

 

It remains a great shame that Gordon does not get the credit for a phenomenal career which, as has been noted by kayemod, yielded such successful and fantastic cars. I can assure you though that, amongst the McLaren Old Boys he is absolutely revered. He was one of my absolute heroes growing up, and was always ready to take the time to provide advice on what to do at school and college in order to pursue my ambitions of emulating him in some very modest way as an engineer in racing. I'm sure under the modest, quiet exterior he had (has) a fiercely competitive drive, but he continues to be one of the nicest people you could meet and is the polar opposite of some of the  self promoting Chief Technical Officers (or whatever pompous title) of recent times whose CVs don't contain a scintilla of comparable success.  



#12 Mallory Dan

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Posted 10 March 2015 - 21:24

Is it fair to say his reputation was tainted, unfairly I think, by the failure of his GE M28 and M29 models?  Anyone who could design a classic like the M23 deserves great praise. That classic won in 4 consecutive seasons, and should have won at least 1 GP in '77 too which would have made it 5.  



#13 TIPO61

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Posted 11 March 2015 - 03:08

Anybody 'got a little love' for Steve Nichols, the  seemingly forgotten American McLaren designer? Not a bad track record while there. Check him out.



#14 blackmme

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Posted 11 March 2015 - 16:10

Is it fair to say his reputation was tainted, unfairly I think, by the failure of his GE M28 and M29 models? Anyone who could design a classic like the M23 deserves great praise. That classic won in 4 consecutive seasons, and should have won at least 1 GP in '77 too which would have made it 5.


I think you are absolutely right, the 26 was a great car but overtaken by a fundamental step change in F1, the 29 was a pretty decent F1 car just not a great one. Which brings us to the M28, a car that was fundamentally too ambitious in terms of its construction method and aero form. But let's face it Gordon is in pretty good company there in terms of Mclaren designers producing one dog isn't he?

Gordon Coppuck produced one of the truly classic F1 cars and one that was a match for the best that every other team in the 70's could throw at it from the Lotus 72 via the best of the transverse Ferrari's through to the Lotus 78. That is an outstanding record.

Regards Mike

#15 Charlieman

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Posted 11 March 2015 - 17:20

In response to the Lotus 79, most F1 designers delivered a poor design. Most designers had previously failed to understand the Lotus 78, so catching up was slow for a while.

 

Patrick Head understood the Lotus 79 and designed a much better car. An incredible car.

 

Coppuck and Southgate, Len Terry and Maurice Phillipe -- well they knew how to make stuff. Only one copied.



#16 kayemod

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Posted 11 March 2015 - 17:52

Is it fair to say his reputation was tainted, unfairly I think, by the failure of his GE M28 and M29 models?   

 

Surely you aren't letting Gordon off over the M30?

 

Charlieman above is right, and the M28 & M29 were only relative failures, the M29 wasn't that bad a car, and all top designers turn out average cars from time to time. Colin Chapman conceived more than a few lacklustre cars, the Types 63, 64, 70, 74, 76, 77, and 80 to name a few, but it's never harmed his reputation as one of the greatest-ever designers/engineers. Similarly, consider Gordon Murray and the original BT46 and the BT55. The surface cooling idea on the first one was so utterly misconceived that a schoolboy studying physics could have told him it wouldn't work, but apparently no schoolboys worked at MRD.  Despite those two, almost everyone would rate Murray very highly indeed, as they should Gordon Coppuck.



#17 Charlieman

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Posted 11 March 2015 - 19:05

Rob: "The surface cooling idea on the first one was so utterly misconceived that a schoolboy studying physics could have told him it wouldn't work..."

 

It wasn't bonkers; it was just too far ahead of practicality,



#18 kayemod

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Posted 11 March 2015 - 19:16

Rob: "The surface cooling idea on the first one was so utterly misconceived that a schoolboy studying physics could have told him it wouldn't work..."

 

It wasn't bonkers; it was just too far ahead of practicality,

 

No, it was hopeless. The BT46 would have had to have the surface area of a double-decker bus for it to have had even a small chance of success, he was calculating on total textured surface area rather than the physical size of the panels, which is what he should have been doing. Elementary my dear Murray.



#19 Charlieman

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Posted 11 March 2015 - 21:06

As a student, I read about the Mustang wing plane and cooling. Very smart engineers wrote papers about the aircraft, failing to understand that drag is largely proportional to engine cooling. Perhaps Gordon Murray made that mistake. He worked it out differently with the BT46B of course.

 

But Rob is right. There is no quick fix to cool an engine.



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#20 PeterElleray

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Posted 11 March 2015 - 23:16

As a student, I read about the Mustang wing plane and cooling. Very smart engineers wrote papers about the aircraft, failing to understand that drag is largely proportional to engine cooling. 

And you're saying that you think applies to a race car?



#21 kayemod

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Posted 13 March 2015 - 15:45

Reading the news from Melbourne, I wonder what McLaren would give for an M28 or M30 equivalent right now?

 

It all reminds me of the famous Gilles Villeneuve quote, "When you see Ferrari's resources, you wonder how they can ever lose a race. When you experience the politics, you wonder how they can ever win one". I'm not sure if the team's current problems are the result of politics or just sheer incompetence, but I'm sure they could tempt Gordon Coppuck back if they tried hard enough. No wonder they've been unable to hang on to a title sponsor, but apologies if this has strayed too far into RC territory.



#22 opplock

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Posted 13 March 2015 - 16:25

Apologies for going OT but the Alastair Caldwell lunch has been mentioned. I was rather surprised by the list of his classmates - Howden Ganley, Graeme Lawrence, Jim Palmer, Pete Kerr among a list of NZ motor racing greats. One in particular surprised me - Steve Millen as I didn't recall him competing until the 70s. A google search revealed that whereas the DOB of the others listed are around 1940-1942, Steve Millen was born on 17th Feb 1952.



#23 Doug Nye

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Posted 14 March 2015 - 16:57

"It remains a great shame that Gordon does not get the credit for a phenomenal career which, as has been noted by kayemod, yielded such successful and fantastic cars. I can assure you though that, amongst the McLaren Old Boys he is absolutely revered. He was one of my absolute heroes growing up,...under the modest, quiet exterior he had (has) a fiercely competitive drive, but he continues to be one of the nicest people you could meet and is the polar opposite of some of the  self promoting Chief Technical Officers (or whatever pompous title) of recent times whose CVs don't contain a scintilla of comparable success."

 

Absolutely seconded. I have always been a great Coppuck fan, and remain so to this day - he just became somewhat overshadowed when the Age of Egos embraced Formula 1 engineering.

 

DCN 



#24 Doug Nye

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Posted 15 March 2015 - 09:36

Apologies for going OT but the Alastair Caldwell lunch has been mentioned. I was rather surprised by the list of his classmates - Howden Ganley, Graeme Lawrence, Jim Palmer, Pete Kerr among a list of NZ motor racing greats. One in particular surprised me - Steve Millen as I didn't recall him competing until the 70s. A google search revealed that whereas the DOB of the others listed are around 1940-1942, Steve Millen was born on 17th Feb 1952.

 

Hmm.  Something curious is apparently happening here...  So far as I understand it, Alastair Caldwell's schoolmates are rather unlikely to have included Pete Kerr (older, had left school already, and did not go to school in Hamilton) - nor Graeme Lawrence (who came from Wanganui and didn't attend school in Hamilton) - nor Steve Millen (from a younger generation and also did not attend school in Hamilton).  In contrast, Howden Ganley and Jim Palmer were certainly both Hamilton Boys High School pupils, but neither recalls Alastair ever being in the same class as them.  Slight memory muddles can afflict us all.

 

DCN 

 

(NB - correction above - Pete Kerr, not Phil Kerr as I inadvertently wrote first time round - sorry about that...)

 


 

Edited by Doug Nye, 19 March 2015 - 09:18.


#25 kayemod

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Posted 15 March 2015 - 09:55

 

Hmm.  Something curious is apparently happening here...  So far as I understand it, Alastair Caldwell's schoolmates are rather unlikely to have included Phil Kerr (older, had left school already, and did not go to school in Hamilton) - nor Graeme Lawrence (who came from Wanganui and didn't attend school in Hamilton) - nor Steve Millen (from a younger generation and also did not attend school in Hamilton).  In contrast, Howden Ganley and Jim Palmer were certainly both Hamilton Boys High School pupils, but neither recalls Alastair ever being in the same class as them.  Slight memory muddles can afflict us all.

 

DCN

 

Alastair Caldwell is a remarkable character with quite a record, but you won't often find his name along with "self doubt" in the same sentence.



#26 opplock

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Posted 15 March 2015 - 11:53

 I seem to recall that Lawrence moved from Wanganui to Hamilton in the late 60s. Never let the facts get in the way of a good story? If Motorsport need people to do a plausibility check on these articles I'm sure many on this forum will volunteer. 



#27 Charlieman

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Posted 15 March 2015 - 14:34

And you're saying that you think applies to a race car?

For any particular design of duct and heat exchanger, drag is largely proportional to heat transfer. See Steady Flow Energy Equation. Some designs are more "efficient" than others, but we can assume that all of the top 1970s F1 cars deployed something different with similar efficiency (measured using cooling, weight, complexity, drag etc as factors).

 

Gordon Murray's surface cooling design was interesting but it didn't work on the primary measure of cooling the engine. Perhaps a calculator error or misreading of the specs? If somebody manages to get surface cooling to work in the future, it may deliver marginal cooling/drag benefits which have to offset complexity and vulnerability.



#28 PeterElleray

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Posted 15 March 2015 - 19:33

For any particular design of duct and heat exchanger, drag is largely proportional to heat transfer. See Steady Flow Energy Equation. Some designs are more "efficient" than others, but we can assume that all of the top 1970s F1 cars deployed something different with similar efficiency (measured using cooling, weight, complexity, drag etc as factors).

 

Gordon Murray's surface cooling design was interesting but it didn't work on the primary measure of cooling the engine. Perhaps a calculator error or misreading of the specs? If somebody manages to get surface cooling to work in the future, it may deliver marginal cooling/drag benefits which have to offset complexity and vulnerability

 

Well thanks for the reference to the Steady Flow Energy Equation....

 

What i questioned was if you were suggesting that the drag on a racing car was largely proportional to engine cooling? Thats the way i read your post, and i have to say that this is completely wrong, as a look at a typical aero package for say, Monaco , or Monza, will highlight. The same car carries a vastly different total level of drag but cools the same BHP...

 

If you are saying that the drag in a cooling duct is proportional to the cooling required, then, in an ideal text book scenario, you would be closer, but the cooling drag on a race car, whilst not insignificant, is by no means the dominant component of overall drag, nor can you realistically split it up from what goes on around the duct and the interaction up and downstream, and very rarely does it follow the form shown in a text book.

 

If ever there was ever a time  when different f1 cars  were more likely to employ  different cooling systems with significantly different efficiencies, it was in the 1970's...

 

At the time Gordon was quoted as saying that he had been advised that the system would only work if the surafce area approached that of 'a London bus'... and that when the surface area of the fins was calculated, the total very nearly did... Therein lies the wrong assumption, i think,  the area that should have been used was the plan area of the fin stack , not the total surafce area of the fins themselves.

 

Peter



#29 Charlieman

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Posted 15 March 2015 - 20:51

If you are saying that the drag in a cooling duct is proportional to the cooling required, then, in an ideal text book scenario, you would be closer, but the cooling drag on a race car, whilst not insignificant, is by no means the dominant component of overall drag, nor can you realistically split it up from what goes on around the duct and the interaction up and downstream, and very rarely does it follow the form shown in a text book.

 

I do not consider cooling drag as the biggest drag on a 1970s car. I agree with you, Peter, that ducts and vents make a lot of difference. A designer or engineer can do stuff.


If ever there was ever a time  when different f1 cars  were more likely to employ  different cooling systems with significantly different efficiencies, it was in the 1970's...

Agreed.



#30 PeterElleray

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Posted 15 March 2015 - 21:34

I do not consider cooling drag as the biggest drag on a 1970s car. I agree with you, Peter, that ducts and vents make a lot of difference. A designer or engineer can do stuff.


 

Agreed.

Good, i'm glad we agree - so can we also agree that the drag of a racing car is NOT largely proportional to engine  cooling ?  :confused:

 

Peter



#31 Charlieman

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Posted 19 March 2015 - 00:17

Work it out, Peter. At the top of the thread I talked about cooling drag but you created an argument about absolute drag. 

 

The Steady Flow Energy Equation is very nifty and pertinent. 1970s and 1980s car designers presumed laminar flow -- no computer could predict much more. So the SFEE remains useful.



#32 PeterElleray

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Posted 19 March 2015 - 08:54

Work it out, Peter. At the top of the thread I talked about cooling drag but you created an argument about absolute drag. 

 

The Steady Flow Energy Equation is very nifty and pertinent. 1970s and 1980s car designers presumed laminar flow -- no computer could predict much more. So the SFEE remains useful.

If i could have done that from your posts then i wouldnt have had to ask you the question!

 

Anyway, i worked for Gordon (Coppuck) in the mid 1980's, and had tremendous respect for him both as a person and as a racing car designer.

 

he was very down to earth and straightforward, all of the work i saw was empirically derived rather than straight from an engineering text book, and that seemed to serve him well over a long peiod.

 

I wish i had spent a bit more time trying to tease McLaren stories out of him, but it seemed neither approriate nor polite at that time.

 

Peter