15 replies to this topic

[Barry Boor]

Those of us with long grey beards will be aware that the 1960 Italian Grand Prix was a rather peculiar race.

Brabham had already clinched the championship so the British constructors opted not to risk their cars and drivers on the 'notorious' banking. (Funny how they changed their minds with flimsier cars in 1961, but that's another matter).

The entry for that race at Monza was strange to say the least but I wonder how many of you realise that no less than five drivers took part in their first and last World Championship races on that day?

Fred Gamble, Arthur Owen, Alphonse Thielem, Piero Drogo and Vic Wilson never started another championship Grand Prix.

I guess there may be a couple of 1960s South African races where that might apply but for European races, it was quite unusual.

[Jack-the-Lad]

I believe it was also the last World Championship race to be won by a front engined car (Ferrari/Phil Hill).

[Tim Murray]

I think you're right, Barry. Looking through the list on StatsF1:

http://www.statsf1.c.../gp/nombre.aspx

it would seem that, although there are a fair number of drivers who made just one start in one of the South African GPs, they spaced themselves out (Johnstone and Lederle in '62, Blokdyk and Niemann in '63, etc).

[dgs]

Other Grand Prix's have had more one off drivers.

 

1952 GERMAN: 8 drivers - Aston, Balsa, Brudes, Klenk, Niedermayr, Peters, Reiss, Schoeller

 

1953 GERMAN:  Adolff, Bauer, Fitzau, Karch, Loof, Nuckey

 

1960 ARGENTINE: also had 5 drivers - Bonomi, Chimeri, Creus, Estofano, Laretta

 

A few of these drivers tried to qualify for other GP's (but failed) but that also applied to Vic Wilson at 1966 Belgian GP

[uechtel]

In those times the participation in an event was much a question of individual policy by the organisers. Some did accept virtually 'everybody', some only entries from works teams. I think the Dutch did actively invite the teams they wanted to take part.

 

For the 1960 Italian GP I understand that the organizers invited some drivers to fill up the grid, who would not even have asked for an entry if the British teams had announced to take part. Maybe they choose some British and international drivers to break the "boycott".

 

This is slightly different to the situation at the German races in 1952 and 53 where the organizers wanted to present local heros to the spectators and not to forget the races were part of the German national championship. Also the circuit was long, so they could accept more cars than elsewhere. And for some of these "locals" I suspect that not all of them did really have the intention to make the full distance.

 

For the 1960 Argentine GP it is obvious that there may have been similar intentions. Not all the teams did make the long journey, so there was space for some local guys to show up. 

[Gary Davies]

And of course, this...  

 

 

... made its first appearance in the hands of von Trips.

[Barry Boor]

No, no, Gary, it had already run earlier in the year.

It was a pure F.2 car in both its races in 1960 but I believe the chassis is basically the same one that Ginther drove at Monaco in F.1 form - the first rear-engined Ferrari.

[Gary Davies]

[Roger Clark]

No, no, Gary, it had already run earlier in the year.

It was a pure F.2 car in both its races in 1960 but I believe the chassis is basically the same one that Ginther drove at Monaco in F.1 form - the first rear-engined Ferrari.

All three of its races?

[Alan Cox]

I think it should be Alfonso Thiele, Barry. And yes, I do have a grey beard

[Barry Boor]

I got the Alfonse from Darren Glpin's site, Alan.

I thought it was Alfonso at first but then changed it when I looked him up on GEL Motorsport.

[nexfast]

I got the Alfonse from Darren Glpin's site, Alan.

I thought it was Alfonso at first but then changed it when I looked him up on GEL Motorsport

 

More likely Alphonse at birth (see here, the site looks solid: http://www.specialfo...-Alphonse-Peter) . Interesting pictures (in color) of the 1960 Italian GP here:

 

http://formula-f.com...php?topic=255.0

[fbarrett]

As of a few years ago, Fred Gamble was still living in Aspen, Colorado.

[Jerry Entin]

Fred Gamble is now living in Hawaii, where he enjoys surfing daily.

 

all research: Willem Oosthoek

[GPevolved]

I don't know if this helps at all, but here is a writeup that I did on the 1960 Italian GP at Monza....

 

It focuses on the controversy around the organization of the race.

 

http://gpevolved.com...960-italian-gp/

 

Hope this helps.  Let me know if there are additional questions and I will dig up my handwritten notes when I wrote the piece (it has been some time).

[robjohn]

Even the British GP often had one-start drivers – in 1954 no less than three: Les Thorne, John Risely-Prichard and Bill Whitehouse. But five, that is hard to beat.

 

As for the rear or mid-engined Ferrari, it ran earlier with the 1477cc F2 engine at Solitude – in the same chassis used with the 246 engine at Monaco, as Barry said, though there were changes to the suspension, transmission and bodywork. It later ran in the F2 Modena GP too, so could be said to have had four races that year. But yes, Monza was its only F1 championship race in that form. The 1961 Sharknose was quite different.

 

Ferrari originally planned to use the 246 engine at Monza but when the British teams withdrew it decided to make the race another test run for the 156. Nothing in that field was going to beat the three standard 246s.

Rob B