3975 replies to this topic

[Overtax]

So, this is happening as well.

 

Giedo van der Garde demands a Sauber seat in court.

 

http://www.heraldsun...3-1227249857089

 

I have to say he is determined.

[balmybaldwin]

So, this is happening as well.

 

Giedo van der Garde demands a Sauber seat in court.

 

http://www.heraldsun...3-1227249857089

 

I have to say he is determined.

Well that's guaranteed that he'll never drive in top level motorsport again!

[SenorSjon]

He seemed to have won a previous Swiss case that Sauber has to give him a seat. Since Sauber can't pay him back, they might as well give him the seat.

[TheRacingElf]

Will be a friendly atmosphere in the Sauber garage if that happens

[taran]

According to Dutch newspaper Telegraaf, Guido van de Garde has started legal action against Sauber in Australia. He is demanding a Sauber drive for the race in Melbourne because he signed a contract with the team before it signed Nasr and Ericsson. The case will be heard on Monday.

 

 

While I dislike legal actions in F1, perhaps its time teams learn they too have to honour signed contracts?

[RedBaron]

Sauber needed money, without their 2 news drivers there would be no seat to sit in. So he wouldn't have a race drive either way.

 

I read that his name no longer appears in the Sauber line up and there's no mention of him on their website. He probably just wants his name to appear as third driver or something along those lines, maybe he has endorsement deals based on him being an F1 driver or in a teams line-up and he will lose those deals if he doesn't get his name up there.

[A3]

I think this is the source:
http://www.adelaiden...c-1227249857089

[SealTheDiffuser]

According to Dutch newspaper Telegraaf, Guido van de Garde has started legal action against Sauber in Australia. He is demanding a Sauber drive for the race in Melbourne because he signed a contract with the team before it signed Nasr and Ericsson. The case will be heard on Monday.

 

 

While I dislike legal actions in F1, perhaps its time teams learn they too have to honour signed contracts?

 

only thing it will do is drive Sauber into bankcrupcy

Edited by SealTheDiffuser, 05 March 2015 - 10:00.

[Francesc]

So, this is happening as well.

 

Giedo van der Garde demands a Sauber seat in court.

 

http://www.heraldsun...3-1227249857089

 

I have to say he is determined.

 

This line is very funny:

Mr van der Garde, 29, is a journeyman driver who joined Sauber last year as a test driver after racing for Caterham F1 team in 2013.

 

[Jake360]

He does like his legal action doesn't he! He took Caterham to court a couple of years back after not being given testing mileage... and lost!

[Francesc]

He does like his legal action doesn't he! He took Caterham to court a couple of years back after not being given testing mileage... and lost!

 

And Force India too!

Edited by Francesc, 05 March 2015 - 10:05.

[Arundo]

only thing it will do is drive Sauber into bankcrupcy

 

Sauber wants to play hard, lawsuits are part of that if you fire your contracted drivers.

[saudoso]

According to Dutch newspaper Telegraaf, Guido van de Garde has started legal action against Sauber in Australia. He is demanding a Sauber drive for the race in Melbourne because he signed a contract with the team before it signed Nasr and Ericsson. The case will be heard on Monday.

 

 

While I dislike legal actions in F1, perhaps its time teams learn they too have to honour signed contracts?

Contracts have exit clauses. If a driver is ditched, he is compensated. Now if the contract didn't have any, the driver knew he could be ditched at will and for free. Good luck with that.

[Jake360]

And Force India too!

 

Whoops that's who i was thinking of!

[taran]

I think this is the source:
http://www.adelaiden...c-1227249857089

 

Very interesting, thanks.

 

And apparently, Sauber has already been ordered to reinstate vd Garde by the Arbitration Institution in Switzerland. It seems likely that Sauber is going to have to cough up serious money to make vd Garde go away since they need their current pay drivers.

[Juan Kerr]

He does like his legal action doesn't he! He took Caterham to court a couple of years back after not being given testing mileage... and lost!

In a world where people take each other to the high courts for schoolyard name-calling and rumour-mongering its a bit rich singling him out as some sort of person obsessed with suing people.

[GoldenColt]

Pacta sunt servanda. Nothing wrong with him doing that.

[TheRacingElf]

The problem with this is that we don't know what was in the contract.. Maybe he has every right to go to court or maybe he is just a frustrated douchebag, we just don't know the details.

 

The thing I do know is that I don't like the way this Kaltenborn lady is running the team though

[SenorSjon]

And he already won a Swiss case against Sauber. So Sauber is violating a court order when not placing him in the car. I guess Sauber can't refund the sponorship funds VdG brought in 2014. And with Manor looking serious, Sauber can write of that piece of the FOM-pie as well.

 

What a difference a few years make in a team's reputation.

[ensign14]

I think this is the source:
http://www.adelaiden...c-1227249857089

 

Mr van der Garde wants the court to force Sauber to give one of it's two starting drives in the upcoming grand prix at Albert Park.

 

 

Christ.  On.  A.  ****ing.  Bike.

[taran]

The problem with this is that we don't know what was in the contract.. Maybe he has every right to go to court or maybe he is just a frustrated douchebag, we just don't know the details.

 

The thing I do know is that I don't like the way this Kaltenborn lady is running the team though

 

I lost my respect for her when she sacked Sutil and vd Garde with a text message. I can understand that Sauber needs money but that just shows serious lack of class.

So   to vd Garde for standing up to a her.

[Vesuvius]

Also Adrian Sutil had a valid contract for 2015, but he and his sponsors didn´t do all the things that were on the contract, so contract was terminated and same thing was rumoured to happend with Van Der Garde, that he and his sponsors didn´t meet all the terms on the contract, this is what was told at the end of the 2014, when Monisha Kaltenborn said that the situation is very simple and it´s clear who will drive their cars 2015.

[Francesc]

Kaltenborn is a disaster really. Peter Sauber better sack her, and put someone competent on his place, or he will lose his team in less than a year.

[SenorSjon]

Also Adrian Sutil had a valid contract for 2015, but he and his sponsors didn´t do all the things that were on the contract, so contract was terminated and same thing was rumoured to happend with Van Der Garde, that he and his sponsors didn´t meet all the terms on the contract, this is what was told at the end of the 2014, when Monisha Kaltenborn said that the situation is very simple and it´s clear who will drive their cars 2015.

In her view it is very simple:

Sutil: $$

VdG: $$$$

Nasr: $$$$$$$$$$

Ericsson: $$$$$

 

If you read the article, in VdG case the court already decided Kaltenborn wasn't right.

[Ragnar668]

Van der Garde originally took his claim to the Arbitration Institution in Switzerland - the country in which Sauber is based - which sided with the driver.

[Vesuvius]

Kaltenborn is a disaster really. Peter Sauber better sack her, and put someone competent on his place, or he will lose his team in less than a year.

the problem is, that things like this happends...has happend before and will happend from now on. Even on team like Williams and beloved Frank Williams has done similar big mistakes.

[Vesuvius]

In her view it is very simple:

Sutil: $$

VdG: $$$$

Nasr: $$$$$$$$$$

Ericsson: $$$$$

 

If you read the article, in VdG case the court already decided Kaltenborn wasn't right.

 

 

if you read the article again, then you would know that it wasn´t court that decided so, it was  Arbitration Institution in Switzerland.

[Elba]

All very predictable, Giedo signs a contract for 2015, Nasr comes along with more money, Sauber chooses Nasr, Giedo sues and Sauber will come up with some form of (financial) compensation.

Giedo's sponsor and father in law has a history of litigation and very deep pockets

[Ragnar668]

All very predictable, Giedo signs a contract for 2015, Nasr comes along with more money, Sauber chooses Nasr, Giedo sues and Sauber will come up with some form of (financial) compensation.

Giedo's sponsor and father in law has a history of litigation and very deep pockets

Doesn't mean he can't be right

[SenorSjon]

if you read the article again, then you would know that it wasn´t court that decided so, it was  Arbitration Institution in Switzerland.

 

Well, if the arbitration institiion (which probably was appointed in the contract to verdict on any struggles) has sided with the driver, what does it say about Sauber? Not adhering to contracts doesn't go very well with most sponsors. Imagine if you pay $5m for the engine cover, contracts are signed, etc. but a month later someone bids $6m and his name is plastered over yours, but you still payed the $5m? 

 

I reckon VdG's sponsorship package for '14 included money for the seat in '15. A test seat alone is worth less money.

[dau]

Christ.  On.  A.  ****ing.  Bike.

Come on, noones perfect. And its not even that bad, maybe you should losen up a bit before you brake something.

[Vesuvius]

Well, if the arbitration institiion (which probably was appointed in the contract to verdict on any struggles) has sided with the driver, what does it say about Sauber? Not adhering to contracts doesn't go very well with most sponsors. Imagine if you pay $5m for the engine cover, contracts are signed, etc. but a month later someone bids $6m and his name is plastered over yours, but you still payed the $5m? 

 

I reckon VdG's sponsorship package for '14 included money for the seat in '15. A test seat alone is worth less money.

 

 

 

let´s wait and see what will happend with this case, if the source that claimed that VDG and his sponsors violated some terms of the contract, are true than it could be a different case...but if not, then it will be difficult for Sauber, of course depends on what actually was promised on contract for VDG.

[SenorSjon]

That claim was ridiculed by Sutil as well. Try and find sponsors is not very legally binding unless fixed numbers were given. And on sponsor level, Sauber lost more sponsors than they gained, so Sutil could reverse the blame as well.

[taran]

let´s wait and see what will happend with this case, if the source that claimed that VDG and his sponsors violated some terms of the contract, are true than it could be a different case...but if not, then it will be difficult for Sauber, of course depends on what actually was promised on contract for VDG.

 

Obviously, we don't know what was in the contract etc. but if arbitration (which would have all these details) decides for a party, then I don't think a court will find very differently. More likely is that Monisha calculated vd Garde wouldn't take her to court and risk his reputation with other teams.

 

But vd Garde is 29 and has little to lose. He won't get another drive anyway.....so might as well force Sauber's hand.

[Lotusseven]

Old article: Sauber boss Monisha Kaltenborn says team comfortable over 2015 driver decision (25/11/14)

 

For the members/people as didn´t know:

 

Monisha Kaltenborn   "From 1990 to 1995 she studied for a Law degree at the University of Vienna, and then completed amasters' degree in International Business Law at the London School of Economics in 1996. Whilst still a student in Vienna, she worked for the United Nations Industrial Development Organization and the UN Commission for International Trade Law, and on completion of her studies she worked for various legal firms: first in Stuttgart with Gleiss Lutz; then back in Vienna with Wolf & Theis; and finally for the Fritz Kaiser Group in 1998–1999."

[SealTheDiffuser]

Sauber wants to play hard, lawsuits are part of that if you fire your contracted drivers.

 

he won't get the drive anyway, just compensation

[Fastcake]

There is an FIA contract board, that could force Sauber to run van der Garde if he had a valid contract. Has he gone through them yet? Stopping competitors running F1 through the courts is the entire reason it was set up.

Kaltenborn is a disaster really. Peter Sauber better sack her, and put someone competent on his place, or he will lose his team in less than a year.

Kaltenborn should be sacked for prioritising the survival of the team over a couple of drivers?

[Elba]

Doesn't mean he can't be right

I didn't mean to imply he wasn't, quite the contrary I think he probably is.

Trawled back and saw that already in November he announced legal action, seemingly some contract was signed in June and money was paid to Sauber which made Giedo and his sponsors believe he was entitled to a 2015 race seat.

 

My speculation: Giedo and legal team claim breach of contract and of course damages, parties cannot agree on the amount of compensation, van der Garde and legal team now put the pressure on by suing in Australia. I guess Sauber might be a bit more forthcoming now with the Aussie court case hanging over their heads.

[taran]

Old article: Sauber boss Monisha Kaltenborn says team comfortable over 2015 driver decision (25/11/14)

 

For the members/people as didn´t know:

 

Monisha Kaltenborn   "From 1990 to 1995 she studied for a Law degree at the University of Vienna, and then completed amasters' degree in International Business Law at the London School of Economics in 1996. Whilst still a student in Vienna, she worked for the United Nations Industrial Development Organization and the UN Commission for International Trade Law, and on completion of her studies she worked for various legal firms: first in Stuttgart with Gleiss Lutz; then back in Vienna with Wolf & Theis; and finally for the Fritz Kaiser Group in 1998–1999."

 

Excellent credentials....

 

But in every high profile legal case, there is one set of (expensive/good/experienced) lawyers that lose and one (expensive/good/experienced) set that wins.....My money would't be on Sauber if they already lost arbitration. Don't expect to see vd Garde driving a Sauber but probably a nice Ferrari bought with the money they were forced to pay him....

[Diablobb81]

I demand a drive too.

[ensign14]

Legally speaking, what vdG wants to get is an injunction in Australia to enforce the Swiss arbitration.  It’s difficult to challenge arbitration decisions, especially as the CAS has a decent reputation. 

 

It’s also difficult to get an injunction as you’re telling Party A that they must employ someone they don’t want to.  The usual remedy for that is damages.  Plus it affects Nasr or Ericsson as one of them loses out despite being innocent.

 

But damages are difficult to prove here.  VdG can rightly say that he is losing a near-unique chance that cannot be compensated.  And on top of that he loses the chance to impress leading teams (unlikely as that is) and lever himself into a paid drive.

 

The upshot will be interesting.  If Sauber hasn’t the dosh to buy out vdG, vdG might injunct them from racing in toto.  Preventing Sauber from breaching his contract.

 

But an Australian injunction only works in Australia.  For Malaysia, he would have to start again in Malaysia, using the Swiss and Australian decisions as justification for an easy win.  The Australian court might order a worldwide injunction but vdG would still have to get the Malaysian court on side to enforce it.

 

Basically, everything at Sauber has gone the up of the tits ever since they did the deal with Chelsea.

Edited by ensign14, 05 March 2015 - 11:08.

[Ragnar668]

I didn't mean to imply he wasn't, quite the contrary I think he probably is.

Trawled back and saw that already in November he announced legal action, seemingly some contract was signed in June and money was paid to Sauber which made Giedo and his sponsors believe he was entitled to a 2015 race seat.

 

My speculation: Giedo and legal team claim breach of contract and of course damages, parties cannot agree on the amount of compensation, van der Garde and legal team now put the pressure on by suing in Australia. I guess Sauber might be a bit more forthcoming now with the Aussie court case hanging over their heads.

announced in November...and only take action now, less then two weeks before the start of the season
extra pressure or......what?

[Jimisgod]

Is there an F1 Rejects site for failed team managers? Monisha would be top of that list.

Embarrassing how far Sauber has fallen.

[Sash1]

There is an FIA contract board, that could force Sauber to run van der Garde if he had a valid contract. Has he gone through them yet? Stopping competitors running F1 through the courts is the entire reason it was set up.


Kaltenborn should be sacked for prioritising the survival of the team over a couple of drivers?

 

If the arbitration in Switzerland was put in the contract as the institution to turn to, it overrules whatever non legal FIA contract board. Usually in European countries these arbitration comissions are legally binding (I am part of one).

 

Will be interesting to see what happens. Good chance that he will win. And what the court orders. Financial compensation or give him the seat. When he gets the seat, Sauber is breaking the contract with either Nasr or Ericsson and will be in deep ****. If they have to pay they are in deep **** too, because the next thing might be a direct seizure of assets -as we know, they don't have cash-.

[SenorSjon]

announced in November...and only take action now, less then two weeks before the start of the season
extra pressure or......what?

You don't know the amount of legal writing in the background in the past months. Seeing how Monisha handles things, I am not suprised this is happening.

 

 

Old article: Sauber boss Monisha Kaltenborn says team comfortable over 2015 driver decision (25/11/14)

 

For the members/people as didn´t know:

 

Monisha Kaltenborn   "From 1990 to 1995 she studied for a Law degree at the University of Vienna, and then completed amasters' degree in International Business Law at the London School of Economics in 1996. Whilst still a student in Vienna, she worked for the United Nations Industrial Development Organization and the UN Commission for International Trade Law, and on completion of her studies she worked for various legal firms: first in Stuttgart with Gleiss Lutz; then back in Vienna with Wolf & Theis; and finally for the Fritz Kaiser Group in 1998–1999."

 

I know she has a law degree, but most lawyers have that, yet in every case half of them loses.

 

 

@Sash1

I bet they then seize the FOM prize money due from 2014.

Edited by SenorSjon, 05 March 2015 - 11:14.

[sopa]

Contracts have exit clauses. If a driver is ditched, he is compensated. Now if the contract didn't have any, the driver knew he could be ditched at will and for free. Good luck with that.

 

This.

At best van der Garde can get some compensation unless he already has been paid. But there is no way he is going to race in Australia! Lol.

[Sash1]

announced in November...and only take action now, less then two weeks before the start of the season
extra pressure or......what?

 

Only when the team is in Australia and has announced the driver for the weekend it is possible to take them to court (they are on Australian territory and acting out contracts) and prove your point (the people they put in the cars are announced and present).

[Elba]

announced in November...and only take action now, less then two weeks before the start of the season
extra pressure or......what?

No they first went to a Swiss tribunal but you are right this Aussie court case is probably just about putting on the pressure.

Lucky for Giedo Sauber just received a 10 million advance from Bernie 

[sopa]

 

I know she has a law degree, but most lawyers have that, yet in every case half of them loses.

 

 

Well, that's inevitable isn't it? In F1 also 21 drivers lose and only 1 wins. Does it mean only 1 driver is a good driver?

[dau]

There is an FIA contract board, that could force Sauber to run van der Garde if he had a valid contract. Has he gone through them yet? Stopping competitors running F1 through the courts is the entire reason it was set up.

I think i read somewere that the Contract Recognition Board is only for disputes regarding a driver having contracts with more than one team - such as when VDG forgot about his contract with Super Aguri and went to Spyker - not for teams having contracts with more than two drivers. Can't find it now, but that would explain VDG going to the Swiss Arbitration Institution and now the Victorian Supreme Court instead.