Bottas has had the beating of Massa in recent races. It's strange because they've been equal for the majority of the year.
Valtteri Bottas vs Felipe Massa 2015
#451
Posted 17 November 2015 - 13:08
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#452
Posted 17 November 2015 - 13:22
i thinks it's because of two things.
at brazil i think why massa struggled is because in recent years he could really ride the curbs and shorten the corners but with the curb changes this year he seemed to struggle.
also another thing to consider is that since the tyre pressure changes in singapore both massa and also hamilton have not been as strong to their teamates as before.(tony dodgins on bbc thought about this) might just be coincidence but mabey it has been been a small factor as we know some drivers are sentitive to changes.
Edited by AlexanderF1, 17 November 2015 - 13:23.
#453
Posted 17 November 2015 - 18:16
i thinks it's because of two things.
at brazil i think why massa struggled is because in recent years he could really ride the curbs and shorten the corners but with the curb changes this year he seemed to struggle.
also another thing to consider is that since the tyre pressure changes in singapore both massa and also hamilton have not been as strong to their teamates as before.(tony dodgins on bbc thought about this) might just be coincidence but mabey it has been been a small factor as we know some drivers are sentitive to changes.
Or, maybe it was just the weather?
I would expect Bottas to be in the ascendancy by now . . . just on age difference.
Last year, in Abu Dhabi, there was only a whisker between the two
Still think Bottas has to step it up a little
#454
Posted 28 November 2015 - 18:25
In the end Bottas turned the qualifying battle around...
Average gap: +0.169 (Advantage Bottas) Median gap: +0.119 (Advantage Bottas) Official qualifying battle: 11-8 (Advantage Bottas)
#455
Posted 28 November 2015 - 21:31
In the end Bottas turned the qualifying battle around...
Last year it was 13 - 6 to Bottas.
This year 11 - 8.
The gap between Hulk and Perez is narrowing in the same way.
Who is turning it around?
#456
Posted 28 November 2015 - 21:35
#457
Posted 29 November 2015 - 08:43
Who is turning it around?
Well VB was compromised early on with the back problem. Since summer Massa has been consistently slower, so to answer your question, it would VB.
But that's academic. What matters is the next season, because in 2017 there might be opportunities to move up the grid for the next generation of drivers. Bottas/Hulk/Verstappen/Sainz/Perez?/whoever will have to perform in 2016, because no one is going to remember let alone care what they did the year before.
#458
Posted 29 November 2015 - 09:59
Massa certainly has to up his game again for next season if he wants to have any chance of remaining at Williams in 2017. Going to be a big ask but his form does seem to come in patches. He'll be great for a few races and then go missing for a few. He has been a lot better than I expected though. I also think Bottas' form has returned after the speculation about his future died down and he was confirmed with Williams again. So expect another mid-season dip from him next year!
#459
Posted 29 November 2015 - 10:48
Massa is declining just as Raikkonen is, unfortunately. Last season Massa performed very well, better than Bottas, though the points standings said otherwise. This season, Massa has only been good in a few races. I think for 2016, he'll decline even more and I doubt he'll drive a Williams for 2017.
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#460
Posted 29 November 2015 - 11:02
Massa certainly has to up his game again for next season if he wants to have any chance of remaining at Williams in 2017. Going to be a big ask but his form does seem to come in patches. He'll be great for a few races and then go missing for a few. He has been a lot better than I expected though. I also think Bottas' form has returned after the speculation about his future died down and he was confirmed with Williams again. So expect another mid-season dip from him next year!
That is Massa for you during his whole career, ups and downs. Despite that he's a fast and very capable driver, not the best but very good. What I don't understand is people who think that if you don't beat your teammate, no matter how good your teammate is, you should be replaced by someone younger.
#461
Posted 29 November 2015 - 11:38
Massa is declining just as Raikkonen is, unfortunately. Last season Massa performed very well, better than Bottas, though the points standings said otherwise. This season, Massa has only been good in a few races. I think for 2016, he'll decline even more and I doubt he'll drive a Williams for 2017.
Bottas was ahead in points, qualifyings, races, podiums, top 5s, points finishes, average qualifying position, average race finish position etc. Sure Massa was strong in the latter part of the season, but that mainly due to the fact that he had newest engines of the bunch because of all of his first lap DNFs. This was even acknowledged by Williams. It was stated that Massa's fresher engines gave him an advantage of more than a couple of tenths per lap.
#462
Posted 30 November 2015 - 01:17
Very close team battle overall, if Massa was to beat Bottas, this was the season to do it, he passed Bottas at one point close to the end in the championship, but when he was expected to be the strongest in some of these final tracks, Bottas turned up the pace when it counted the most and passed him through.
I am a fan of Massa, but now I believe he is losing his edge as a driver, Bottas should gain confidence even more for next year as this year he had to grind it out, being able to finish ahead even with some bad luck on some crucial races. I still don't quite buy the Bottas next champ for sure hype, but he is improving, showing some atitude such as with Kimi and resilience in my view, he could be a champions a la Button, Kimi level..
Edited by Flyhigh, 30 November 2015 - 01:18.
#463
Posted 04 December 2015 - 12:42
I think he's bang average and this season has just re-enforced it.
Massa is on the decline but that's to be expected.
I don't see either delivering Williams a victory, even if they have the car to occasionally challenge.
#464
Posted 04 December 2015 - 13:30
Very close team battle overall, if Massa was to beat Bottas, this was the season to do it, he passed Bottas at one point close to the end in the championship, but when he was expected to be the strongest in some of these final tracks, Bottas turned up the pace when it counted the most and passed him through.
I am a fan of Massa, but now I believe he is losing his edge as a driver, Bottas should gain confidence even more for next year as this year he had to grind it out, being able to finish ahead even with some bad luck on some crucial races. I still don't quite buy the Bottas next champ for sure hype, but he is improving, showing some atitude such as with Kimi and resilience in my view, he could be a champions a la Button, Kimi level.
i think massa was the better driver until singapore , then williams dropped back development or tyre pressure changes took effect(mabey)? and had few dnfs and bottas drove better in the last part of season. people keep saying bottas is average but i think it shows that massa has got better since leaving ferrari rather than bottas being average
#465
Posted 04 December 2015 - 13:47
I think most noticeable about this pair is the fact the in the absolute majority of sessions they are within 0.2" of each other.
#466
Posted 04 December 2015 - 14:25
Massa started this season in really strong form, edged Bottas through most of the first half of the year and seemed like a bit of a driver reborn right up to the second where he got on the podium at Monza. That "I'm too old for this guys" message on the radio, everyone smiling and enjoying his renaissance, question marks over Bottas and his apparent inability to convincingly beat Massa - was Valtteri really the superstar that warranted a Ferrari seat? Good times for Felipe.
Yet by the end of the season Bottas has turned it all around, convincingly beat Felipe in most qualifying sessions and race distances and suddenly Felipe's a driver you'd struggle to put into the season's top ten on merit. His form has tailed off so much, and Bottas has risen to the challenge.
That said, I don't think either of them have been as convincing as they were in 2014. Bottas because he struggled to beat Massa for much of the season, Massa because instead of his flying end to the 2014 season, his form has just fizzled out so much in the last third of the season.
Edited by messy, 04 December 2015 - 14:25.
#467
Posted 04 December 2015 - 15:29
That said, I don't think either of them have been as convincing as they were in 2014. Bottas because he struggled to beat Massa for much of the season, Massa because instead of his flying end to the 2014 season, his form has just fizzled out so much in the last third of the season.
Don't know . . . Williams fizzled out in general towards the end, partly through abandoning development, partly through getting sloppy . . . I think they made both guys look bad. For me, Massa had a better season this year and made very few mistakes. Bottas should be well in the ascendancy right now but . . . there was the back worry at the beginning of the season and then his possibly once in a lifetime career move to Ferrari blocked. Not sure if he's a happy bunny. Four years at Williams was quite enough for Rosberg.
#468
Posted 04 December 2015 - 15:34
#469
Posted 09 December 2015 - 13:41
Bottas edged this one, but sure enough - Massa was close and gave a good run for money. Especially in mid-season Massa had a string of weekends, where he beat Bottas. But Massa's old problem - consistency - strikes every now and then again.
Bottas I still think would make a decent #2 driver for a top team. Massa is a good mid-level talent, and looking at driver ratings throughout the years, just misses out on being a top 10 driver on the grid.
#470
Posted 18 December 2015 - 18:45
http://www.formula1....-supergrid.html
#471
Posted 20 December 2015 - 20:23
I don't think that Massa's improvement in form since his move to Williams has been given much weight, in this vs. discussion.
So much of racing at a high level is mental - and with Massa enjoying a much better situation at Williams, I find it interesting that his good showing against Bottas is often painted as Bottas not being very good after all - rather than Massa having an up-swing in form.
#472
Posted 22 December 2015 - 09:44
I don't think that Massa's improvement in form since his move to Williams has been given much weight, in this vs. discussion.
So much of racing at a high level is mental - and with Massa enjoying a much better situation at Williams, I find it interesting that his good showing against Bottas is often painted as Bottas not being very good after all - rather than Massa having an up-swing in form.
I think it is mostly not give much weight due to Alonso being a superior driver to Bottas.
Yeah, Massa has flashes of speed, but he has always had these. In 2013 he outqualified Alonso 8 (!) times. Bottas is just not as consistently brilliant driver to capitalize on Massa in race trim.
As for 'mental situation' - well yeah, I'd imagine that Massa is a bit happier now in Williams than he was in Ferrari. Nobody likes to get an utter beating from your team-mate. Not to mention Williams has an aura of 'underdog' and even top 6 results there sound good. While in Ferrari - if you don't win, you have failed.