67 replies to this topic

[Beri]

Then they would never catch up with the SC.

 

There are solutions for that. For example: At a SC situation, all drivers proceed with 50kmh to the start and finish straight and are being instructed by race control where they are not allowed to warm up the car by weaving and such and eyeball what is safe to do. At 50kmh this is something even an 80yo grandma could do. Then if they are passed the incident, they proceed down the rest of the lap with 50kmh and bunch up on the starting positions in the order you arrive with the race leader standing on the Pole Position. If the last driver is standing still, the drivers may follow the SC which is waiting at pit exit. SC dictates the speed that is allowed to be driven, like it is now. Drivers will be told again which sector/corners they are not allowed to weave or warm up the car. During the SC period when the recovery has been completed, the lapped drivers may overtake, in a similar fashion to now, before the SC ending period and the race again commences.

This all will significantly take down the amount of time it costs to catch up with the SC, like how it is nowadays, even with an imposed 50kmh limit. It also will secure the safety of both drivers and marshalls. And it will allow for a faster deploy of the marshalls and/or recovery vehicles and thus the SC period taking less time and/or laps to complete so we get to see more laps of racing.

[ANF]

I entirely agree, but it is deeply unfortunate that such a critical detail is misremembered, as it has very significant implications for who should be deemed at fault for the incident.

Another unfortunate thing is that many people still don't understand that Bianchi sustained such serious brain injuries because his helmet hit the tractor.

 

English Wikipedia has plenty of details about the accident, but nowhere does it say that his helmet hit the tractor.

 

So here it is again, from the FIA accident investigation:

"Bianchi’s helmet struck the sloping underside of the crane. The magnitude of the blow and the glancing nature of it caused massive head deceleration and angular acceleration, leading to his severe injuries." https://www.fia.com/.../accident-panel

[balmybaldwin]

It wasn't. I've seen this misremembered more than I'd expect in recent years. Bemusing!

I stand corrected it was under double yellows wasn't it.  Gasly's near miss was though

Edited by balmybaldwin, 28 February 2024 - 13:58.

[Ruusperi]

For years I have advocated for Code 60 (or Code 30 or whatever they consider safe speed for track workers and tractors to enter the track) to be used in F1.

Once the incident-site is cleared, Code 60 is updated to VSC for 1 lap with delta times in effect in order to allow the drivers to warm up the tires.

Then it's back to green.

[pdac]

Then they would never catch up with the SC.

 

What's more important? The safety of everyone trying to clear up the incident or the need for the cars to maintain tyre temperature so that they can easily go racing again once the incident is cleared? It would appear that the latter is the priority. Otherwise, just bring the first cars to a near standstill until the pack is compressed enough.

[Leatherface]

For years I have advocated for Code 60 (or Code 30 or whatever they consider safe speed for track workers and tractors to enter the track) to be used in F1.
Once the incident-site is cleared, Code 60 is updated to VSC for 1 lap with delta times in effect in order to allow the drivers to warm up the tires.
Then it's back to green.

That's what I suggested earlier, use a VSC to get their tyres back up to temp.

[Clatter]

What's more important? The safety of everyone trying to clear up the incident or the need for the cars to maintain tyre temperature so that they can easily go racing again once the incident is cleared? It would appear that the latter is the priority. Otherwise, just bring the first cars to a near standstill until the pack is compressed enough.

 

I don't care about the warming of the tyres, but when there is a SC, the workers are much safer when they the cars are all backed up in a bunch. Even safer would be to red flag while they sort the mess out. I don't like the VSC because with the field spread out, the track workers are having to constantly keep an eye out for cars.

[Sterzo]

A speed limiter definitely offers safety advantages. How about two stages, with a "catch up the safety car" limited speed and a "now they're formed up" lower limit?

[Clatter]

A speed limiter definitely offers safety advantages. How about two stages, with a "catch up the safety car" limited speed and a "now they're formed up" lower limit?

 

What there should be is a hard, low, speed limit through the yellow zones. Get rid of the nonsense rules where a slight lift is considered enough.

[Myrvold]

If I remember it correctly; the airbags wouldn't deploy fast enough with the technology in that day and age to be of any meaningful advantage during a high speed crash. Meaning that the head of the driver would be traversing forward during a crash and the airbag deployment would be too late and wouldn't cushion the head but instead knock the head back with too much force. Resulting in likely more injuries to be deemed safe.

 

I wonder if this would be possible now though? The MotoGP airbags seems to be effective enough.

[F1 Mike]

I wonder if this would be possible now though? The MotoGP airbags seems to be effective enough.

Maybe

But the difference with bikes is there's usually a slight delay between them getting in trouble and the impact. They often come off the bike before they experience an impact, allowing plenty of time for the airbag to deploy.

In car accidents it's quite different in that regard

[Myrvold]

Maybe

But the difference with bikes is there's usually a slight delay between them getting in trouble and the impact. They often come off the bike before they experience an impact, allowing plenty of time for the airbag to deploy.

In car accidents it's quite different in that regard

 

But they don't go off too easily either. As the moment it goes off, the riders are out. They still crash and continue. I must admit, I haven't read up on the technology, but there must be something related to an impact for it not to go off when it's not needed.

[pdac]

A speed limiter definitely offers safety advantages. How about two stages, with a "catch up the safety car" limited speed and a "now they're formed up" lower limit?

 

I say, if you're going to have two stages, they are as follows:

1. All cars are immediately limited to the final (low speed)
2. The pit lane exit is closed (cars can come in, but cannot leave)
3. The safety car comes out at a much much lower speed so every car that comes up behind the safety car has to reduce to a virtual stand-still3.
4. Other cars are still free to travel at the speed limit set, but will soon catch up with the very slow bunch and have to slow themselves
5. Once all cars are bunched up sufficiently, the safety car will speed up to allow the cars to cruise around at the limit set
6. The pit lane exit is now re-opened
7. When the safety car comes in, cars are free to overtake, but all cars are still speed limited (so overtaking can only happen if the car in front slows to below their limit)
8. Once a car passes the start line, it's speed limiter is deactivated

If that means that they all end up with cold tyres, so be it. If it means that some of the cars end up with cold tyres, so be it. Doing this will bunch up the pack in a way that is safer for the track-side workers. Closing the pit exit will stop the crazy dash to get a free tyre change (which has got to be an unsafe activity). Keeping the speed limiter whist allowing overtaking will stop the ridiculous (and unsafe) practice of the lead driver slowing to nothing, before speeding up to get a run on the rest.

 

Having said all of that, I think it would be better all round to just red-flag it and wait until it's all clear, then have a standing restart.

Edited by pdac, 28 February 2024 - 23:41.

[Beri]

I wonder if this would be possible now though? The MotoGP airbags seems to be effective enough.

 

A more important angle is that I suspect it isnt needed anymore thanks to HANS. Albeit the downside of HANS is that it has led to an increase in back injuries during crashes.

[GrumpyYoungMan]

I think the one thing that really needs to be looked at is trackside vehicles, the tractors for clearing stricken cars, they really need some form of protection around their sides, front and back. Another accident like Bianchi's would be completely unacceptable.

100% but equally some of the blame does land on the driver(s)...

Edited by GrumpyYoungMan, 29 February 2024 - 08:30.

[southernstars]

I mean, the FIA also admitted they knew a typhoon was going to park itself on the track on Sunday afternoon for five days before it did, and yet refused to move the race earlier in the day because ~UK broadcast rights~.

[Ruusperi]

I mean, the FIA also admitted they knew a typhoon was going to park itself on the track on Sunday afternoon for five days before it did, and yet refused to move the race earlier in the day because ~UK broadcast rights~.

The conditions weren't even that bad.  Before Sutil's crash at lap 40 the race had been pretty much incident-free. And mind you, they were on inters. So definitely drivable conditions.

[PayasYouRace]

I mean, the FIA also admitted they knew a typhoon was going to park itself on the track on Sunday afternoon for five days before it did, and yet refused to move the race earlier in the day because ~UK broadcast rights~.

Why do you single out the UK broadcast?