230 replies to this topic

[JHSingo]

Serious question, that I'm not just asking to stir anything up.

Say Hamilton wins the championship this year (which he probably will), do you think people will start saying he has to move to an underperforming team and 'rebuild' them, to become a true great, like they did for Vettel? I recall Hamilton saying a while ago he wanted to 'do a Schumacher.' Well, simple fact of the matter is that he hasn't rebuilt Mercedes, he's simply reaping the rewards of the work done by the likes of Brawn and co. long before he was ever there.

Be interested to hear what you all think...

[mod note: this was originally posted in the Hamilton vs Rosberg thread. I have split the discussion as that was not the appropriate place for it and also to allow more people to respond than the thread regulars. By all means critique the question if you want but please keep it polite and report any trolling instead of accusing people of trolling- SophieB]

Edited by SophieB, 14 March 2015 - 17:17.
Split topic

[GoldenColt]

Serious question, that I'm not just asking to stir anything up.

 

Yeah, that's why you say this:

 

 

Well, simple fact of the matter is that he hasn't rebuilt Mercedes, he's simply reaping the rewards of the work done by the likes of Brawn and co. long before he was ever there.

 

 

Quite a lame attempt to actually stir things up imo.

Edited by GoldenColt, 14 March 2015 - 12:23.

[Fatgadget]

Serious question, that I'm not just asking to stir anything up.

 

Say Hamilton wins the championship this year (which he probably will), do you think people will start saying he has to move to an underperforming team and 'rebuild' them, to become a true great, like they did for Vettel? I recall Hamilton saying a while ago he wanted to 'do a Schumacher.' Well, simple fact of the matter is that he hasn't rebuilt Mercedes, he's simply reaping the rewards of the work done by the likes of Brawn and co. long before he was ever there.

 

Be interested to hear what you all think...

I think you are! That is just absurd  ..Hamilton doesn't have to do anything over and above  what we all see...So he hasn't rebuilt Mercedes..so what? Did Nando rebuilt Renault? Did Senna likewise MaxLaren? and ditto Vettel at Redbull?..Schumacher/Toad/Brawn/Bryne  was just one of those unique once in a lifetime scenarios hardly likely ever to be replicated  again.

[JHSingo]

and ditto Vettel at Redbull?..Schumacher/Toad/Brawn/Bryne  was just one of those unique once in a lifetime scenarios hardly likely ever to be replicated  again.

 

No, but my point was that Vettel was regularly criticised for winning his championships 'too easily' in a dominant car. There has been this caveat that we can't truly judge how great a driver he is, until he turns Ferrari around. That's what a lot of people were saying after 2013 anyway...

 

So, does the same apply for Hamilton?

[JHSingo]

Quite a lame attempt to actually stir things up imo.

 

So, you believe he HAS, in actual fact, rebuilt Mercedes, or what?

[monolulu]

It's a bit early to talk about what Lewis will do after winning his 3rd WDC he hasn't won a race this year yet! Nico's had a bad Quali but don't discount him I'm sure Lewis won't. One thing you can be sure of the season won't be simple "things" always seem to happen to Lewis whether his fault or not.

[JHSingo]

^^People are free to criticise whatever... 'there has been a caveat'???  Sorry you are being a bit  wooly being specific might help!...Which people you on about?..You included I take it! 

 

Come on. The press, this forum. After last year, everyone was quick to criticise him, saying that he'd only won the championship because of dominant cars, and needed to win somewhere other than Red Bull, in not the most dominant car, to be considered a true great.

 

Just curious whether the same will be said for Hamilton, or for whatever reason, the situation is different?

[PAGATRON]

How does a driver 'rebuild' a team exactly?

[OO7]

No, but my point was that Vettel was regularly criticised for winning his championships 'too easily' in a dominant car. There has been this caveat that we can't truly judge how great a driver he is, until he turns Ferrari around. That's what a lot of people were saying after 2013 anyway...

 

So, does the same apply for Hamilton?

Vettel had very strong cars but a relatively weak team mate (thus no real competition) and received a great deal of success and praise due to this fact.  As soon as he had to face a stronger team mate his dominance wilted and this has been the main criticism of Vettel, not team building or lack thereof.

[P123]

No, but my point was that Vettel was regularly criticised for winning his championships 'too easily' in a dominant car. There has been this caveat that we can't truly judge how great a driver he is, until he turns Ferrari around. That's what a lot of people were saying after 2013 anyway...
 
So, does the same apply for Hamilton?

Not really, no.

[JHSingo]

Not really, no.

 

Why?

[Fatgadget]

How does a driver 'rebuild' a team exactly?

Schumacheresque! 

[P123]

Why?

Because I don't believe drivers 'rebuild' teams. And from what I remember, what people liked to question about Vettel was how he would do in a less competitive car or against a different teammate. I think we've seen that with Hamilton already. And we'll see it again because Merc won't be as dominant forever.

It's a bit early for that talk anyway before any races have been run. He's got a fight against Nico to win, and whilst the gap may be big today it won't be like that always.

Edited by P123, 14 March 2015 - 13:52.

[CHIUNDA]

Serious question, that I'm not just asking to stir anything up.

 

Say Hamilton wins the championship this year (which he probably will), do you think people will start saying he has to move to an underperforming team and 'rebuild' them, to become a true great, like they did for Vettel? I recall Hamilton saying a while ago he wanted to 'do a Schumacher.' Well, simple fact of the matter is that he hasn't rebuilt Mercedes, he's simply reaping the rewards of the work done by the likes of Brawn and co. long before he was ever there.

 

Be interested to hear what you all think...

 

 

As I recall it, his move from McLaren was to an under performing Mercedes? That box is already ticked.

 

 

Plus I think he has pretty much earned his respect being the only champion on the current grid that has won the title in more than one team. From my perspective, anything else he earns from here on is pretty much bonus. I don't think it is necessary to do a Schumacher to be great for the basic reason that many great drivers of times past never did a Schumacher and many times are more rated than him anyway.

 

That said, the season is only two days old, the first race has not even been won ... this is a discussion best left for later in the year when its clearer that he is going for his 3rd WDC. From what I can see, Lewis is not confident he is going to dominate Nico this season. He says in the post qualifying interview that he wasn't sure where his mind was at until today. His in-car demeanor during qualifying was also not so confidence inspiring. He was more fidgety than usual. Frankly, i was surprised by that quali performance. So let's give him a few more races before we get into this "true great" discussion. 

Edited by CHIUNDA, 14 March 2015 - 15:51.

[surbjits]

With all due respect I don't see how Hamilton halped rebuild the team to a large degree considering brawn and co had put into place a structure with the aim of dominating the 2014 regs. Without Hamilton, Nico still wouldve comfortably won last years championship which speaks volumes

[sennafan24]

 Well, simple fact of the matter is that he hasn't rebuilt Mercedes, he's simply reaping the rewards of the work done by the likes of Brawn and co. long before he was ever there.

Whilst Schumi reaped the rewards of having Ross Brawn joining Ferrari, and later on having bespoke Bridgestone tyres.

 

Schumi did not re-build Ferrari single handily, he was part of a process. As is Lewis at Mercedes. Just that Lewis did not have to wait as long as Schumi to get his mitts on a dominant car. Still, Lewis was there in 2013 before the car became dominant, so he was part of the growing process. 

 

A driver does not re-build a team. A team re-builds a team.

[RaySpace]

This team-rebuilding stuff is just piffle, and using it for Lewis-Seb comparisons is somehow even worse!  It's disingenuous to challenge an entire fanbase to account for a niche (and seldom-heard) criticism of another driver .

 

Vettel's credibility gap (for those who see one) is mainly about the lack of overall competition he faced, being trounced by new boy Ricciardo simply reminded us of that. It wasn't that Vettel 'didn't build a team up' (Red Bull went from good to dominant with him there, so that doesn't even make sense  ).

 

As for Lewis and Nico, the idea behind hiring such quick guys is that they would make the difference whilst Merc fought their way back up. In reality the team leapfrogged the rest, so instead we have an intense team rivalry and this rather intense thread.

 

Last year had so many swings back and forth (and some of the best wheel-to-wheel battles for the WDC I've ever seen) that I'm just glad they're going at it again     

Edited by RaySpace, 14 March 2015 - 15:23.

[travbrad]

Say Hamilton wins the championship this year (which he probably will), do you think people will start saying he has to move to an underperforming team and 'rebuild' them, to become a true great, like they did for Vettel? 

 

I don't think that was actually the "requirement" put forth by most people who doubted Vettel.  They just wanted to see him against another top driver more than anything, to see how he really compared.  It can be quite revealing as we saw last year with Alonso vs Raikkonen and even Vettel vs Ricciardo (and very few people even thought Ricciardo was a top driver before 2014)

 

There have naturally been less doubts about Hamilton in this regard, since his rookie season in F1 he was up against a 2x WDC (who is still regarded by many as THE best driver in F1).  Kovalainen was pretty weak, but then he had another WDC teammate in the form of Button, and now Rosberg (who himself would be WDC now if not for Hamilton)

 

No reasonable person ever thought Vettel wasn't a top quality driver.  They just weren't convinced that he is THE best driver in F1, and it turns out that wasn't such a crazy thing to believe (see 2014)

[peroa]

He already did it, 2012>2013.

[GrumpyYoungMan]

Does Hamilton need to move to a worse team to be considered a true great?

No.

 

That is all I am saying so I don't start a flaming cyber forum war... lol

Edited by GrumpyYoungMan, 14 March 2015 - 17:46.

[sennafan24]

Silly title.

 

What bad team did Senna move to after becoming Champion?  Yeah he had a few years where McLaren were not the best team (1992/1993), but that came after 4 years where they either had the best car (1988/1989). or the 2nd best car (1990/1991)

 

Lewis had the same from 2009-2012. None of those years did McLaren have the best car. Even in 2007/2008, it is arguable the Ferrari was stronger.Lewis is not Senna. But, Lewis's body of work is outstanding when you consider context. I think Lewis is well on his way to being considered a true great.

[trogggy]

Say Hamilton wins the championship this year (which he probably will), do you think people will start saying he has to move to an underperforming team and 'rebuild' them, to become a true great...?

I'm sure people will say it, yes.  You, for one.

[surbjits]

Schumacher/Toad/Brawn/Bryne  was just one of those unique once in a lifetime scenarios hardly likely ever to be replicated  again.

 

not just that, but also because ferrari hadn't won a championship for so long and had been in the sport for a very long time making it all the more special, and also the manner in which it was won (fierce rivalry with a couple of teams leading up to it)

[micktosin]

Nope, you want to know why?

1 He has proven himself as a worthy champion against multiple credible competitors.

2 His move to Mercedes in 2013 ticked the boxes of a worse team compared to 2012 McLaren, and no one could've foreseen Mclaren would be worse off in 2013.

3 He has shown great leadership skills and patience amidst the team struggles in 2013. 

4 He has won multiple races in a non dominant car (2010,2009#12)

 

In these context, it should be perfectly clear why people doubted vettel and why it doesn't apply to Lewis  .  

Edited by micktosin, 14 March 2015 - 17:53.

[1Devil1]

He already did it, 2012>2013.

 

He did? he jumped into a rocket ship, that's it. or did Vettel jumped into a worse team in 2009 ? Happy for him, but the rise of Mercedes was done and dusted before he went to the team, they would have won without him, and I never rated that move as ballsy, these rumors that Mercedes could be so good with their engine started way before he signed his contract - it was risky, but all cards on the tables indicated a team fighting for championships. And to answer the question: No: his status is pretty good right now, a move to a different team would maybe add an extra something but, as someone said his team mates were good enough, to make this argument a bit over the top

Edited by 1Devil1, 14 March 2015 - 17:53.

[superden]

FFS. No. Just, no.

[hollowstar]

He already did

[sennafan24]

FFS. No. Just, no.

I love how concise your posts are 

[mercedessurearepopularnow]

Be interested to hear what you all think...

Yeah, it'll be about as interesting as the title fight this season, and probably just as one-sided. 

[Watkins74]

Anyone with 3 WDC's are in the great category in my book.

 

JMO

[Asterion]

He already did

Yup.

[jonpollak]

what a load of garbage...

Part of being great is putting yourself in a situation that gives you the best chance to win.

 

Jp

[Newbrray]

Another hamilton thread - I guess the season must have started again and some have awoken from the winter slumber (Some things never change)

Edited by Newbrray, 14 March 2015 - 18:10.

[EcurieEcosse69]

To be called a "GREAT" race driver in the lofty realms of those that have reached that pinnacle in  F1 requires time and a recognition by all....fans and foes... Lewis is not close to that status yet.

Edited by EcurieEcosse69, 14 March 2015 - 18:22.

[senna da silva]

To be called a "GREAT" race driver in the lofty realms of those that have reached that pinnacle in  F1 requires time and a recognition by all....fans and foes... Lewis is not close to that status yet.

 

Lewis is a two time Formula 1 World Driver's Champion. I believe that alone qualifies him as a "great".

There are only sixteen people who have ever accomplished that feat.

[Button4life]

No, his teammates were Kov, Button, Alonso and Rosberg. 2 WDCs and 1 potenial WDC. He has proved against them to be a great driver.

Edited by Button4life, 14 March 2015 - 18:46.

[ninetyzero]

But he did go to a worse team, Mercedes. At the time everyone thought that him leaving McLaren for Mercedes was mental, but now he needs to 'go to a worse team'? I'm sure the negotiations with Manor are ongoing...

[Anonas]

Funny topic, I remember people saying in 2012 he should move to Mercedes and if he won a WDC then he could be considered to be one of the greats like Schumacher did at Ferrari.

Edited by Anonas, 14 March 2015 - 18:55.

[LuckyStrike1]

Always this old chestnut .... 

 

F1 Championships are won in the best car in the best team, simple as that. 

 

And champions doesn't become great champions and proving themselves by moving around and winning i multiple teams. 

 

Vettel is a four time WDC and doesn't need to prove anything by winning a fifth title for another team. If he does do it, he will at that time drive the best car in the field. With or without competition from a somewhat equally good team in the field. 

 

Lewis Hamilton is a two time champion and if he so stays at Mercedes for the next 10 years, winning either none title or 10 more he still is a two time champion in 2008 and 2014 and those titles are just as much worth then as they are now. 

 

So no. He doesn't need to move anywhere. If he does a great job he is a great driver. And him as well as Vettel already have proved they are great drivers no matter what they do from here to eternity. And the rest are just small non meaning degrees of greatness we pundits can throw around because we have a need to discuss something now and then. 

[viceroy1]

Serious question, that I'm not just asking to stir anything up.

Say Hamilton wins the championship this year (which he probably will), do you think people will start saying he has to move to an underperforming team and 'rebuild' them, to become a true great, like they did for Vettel? I recall Hamilton saying a while ago he wanted to 'do a Schumacher.' Well, simple fact of the matter is that he hasn't rebuilt Mercedes, he's simply reaping the rewards of the work done by the likes of Brawn and co. long before he was ever there.

Be interested to hear what you all think...

[mod note: this was originally posted in the Hamilton vs Rosberg thread. I have split the discussion as that was not the appropriate place for it and also to allow more people to respond than the thread regulars. By all means critique the question if you want but please keep it polite and report any trolling instead of accusing people of trolling- SophieB]

Edited by viceroy1, 14 March 2015 - 19:02.

[derstatic]

Don't think so. Hammy proved himself from the word go that he can take on and beat a class teammate, and then more after that. He also managed this under different rules, just like other recent greats like Schu and Alonso have. Comparison with Vettel is difficult because he had a very superior car and relatively weak teammates. Sure Webbo was good but not among the very best. With new rules and a less dominant car he never looked like beating Ricciardo. If he can beat Kimi like Fred did he's got a stronger case.

As for Hammy he's done all that and fir me that makes him one of the greats.

[P123]

This is a topic now....

OK, as for the 'question' in the title of the topic it appears one season of Hamilton 'dominance' has inflicted some sort of selective amnesia on many. He's already done that 'move', from a team with the equal best car in 2012 to a team that finished 5th in the WCC.

This is quite a contrast to this topic- http://forums.autosp...-of-his-career/

And the great fallacy of the premise in the OP is that drivers rebuild teams. Silly Mercedes, signing all those tech guys...

[JoseM]

Yes he does. He needs to go to Ferrari, to emulate Michael.

[Newbrray]

This is a topic now....

OK, as for the 'question' in the title of the topic it appears one season of Hamilton 'dominance' has inflicted some sort of selective amnesia on many. He's already done that 'move', from a team with the equal best car in 2012 to a team that finished 5th in the WCC.

This is quite a contrast to this topic- http://forums.autosp...-of-his-career/

And the great fallacy of the premise in the OP is that drivers rebuild teams. Silly Mercedes, signing all those tech guys...

 

 

so true   

[BRG]

He should move to Manor immediately.

[RedBaron]

Unless Hamilton switches to Manor by the Chinese GP and wins the WDC at the end of the year I would consider his championships void and the number 44 will forever stand as a symbol of failure.

[Atreiu]

What have you been waching?
With his single dominant car he won the title and 11 races. with every other he was a race winner and showed incredible speed, wons races and also won a title. All of his teammates were race winners, two were WDCs.
He can only be blamed for not being a paragon of consistency, but if you think he needs a worse cars to estabilish himself you are clearly mistaken.

Edited by Atreiu, 14 March 2015 - 19:13.

[RubberKubrick]

No, but my point was that Vettel was regularly criticised for winning his championships 'too easily' in a dominant car. There has been this caveat that we can't truly judge how great a driver he is, until he turns Ferrari around. That's what a lot of people were saying after 2013 anyway...

So, does the same apply for Hamilton?

As if Hamilton is considered great only because of 2014.

He is mainly because of fighting with the, besides himself, absolute best driver in F1 as teammate when he was a rookie and, despite that, coming out on top in the WDC table.

And furthermore, he is mainly because of winning many many times in not the single-best car of a weekend (ca. one third of his entire amount of wins: Hockenheim08, Shanghai08, Hungary09, Singapore09, Belgium10, Shanghai11, Nürburgring11, Canada12, Hungary12, Austin12, Hungary13).

[GoldenColt]

He did? he jumped into a rocket ship, that's it.

 

I don't remember the W04 to be a "rocket ship" or am I missing something?

[1Devil1]

This is a topic now....

OK, as for the 'question' in the title of the topic it appears one season of Hamilton 'dominance' has inflicted some sort of selective amnesia on many. He's already done that 'move', from a team with the equal best car in 2012 to a team that finished 5th in the WCC.

This is quite a contrast to this topic- http://forums.autosp...-of-his-career/

And the great fallacy of the premise in the OP is that drivers rebuild teams. Silly Mercedes, signing all those tech guys...

 

Because he moved from McLaren to Mercedes here already did that move, with a big rule chance on the line? He did not went to a backmarker or something else, he went to a team, which bought tons of engineers, with a lot of money, championships were bound to happend. everybody knew, the packing order would be different in 2014. what is so ballsy, about that move, to go to a team, that has the best resources ? Mercedes won a race in 2012, got poles, was super fast in qualifying - Yes he took some risks, but this is not a move like Alonso to McLaren, or Schumacher to Ferrari back in the days... Perfect choice for his career, but don't let it make like he needed to wait years for the recovery of a team, he, like Vettel, jumped ship at the right moment. As someone said, that's part of a great driver. Which positions was Red Bull in 2008 before Vettel went to the team ? There is a different to go to a team which is on the raise then go to a team which is down for years. And as said, I don't think he need to go to a midfield team to become a legend, he did enough already to be regarded as top20, top10

Edited by 1Devil1, 14 March 2015 - 19:15.