230 replies to this topic

[jjcale]

tldr; no.

 

But, it's a worthy topic for debate. The demographic here doesn't really help the prospects of a rational discussion about it. For eg. half of the f1 fans on reddit are under 24. And with polls we've seen here, some half of the members here are bleeding heart Hamilton fans.

 

He's already an all time great. The best wheel to wheel racer the sport has seen since Montoya and before that probably was Mansell and Piquet. But he has had the silver spoon and been inconsistent over in his career. Some black marks on his record too. Losing a title due to inexperience. Being run so close by Massa. Beaten over a season by Button. Opening a whole lot of unnecessary gates. Having difficulty finding his zone mentally and letting himself go with outbursts at the press and his peers etc. But he's in the form of his life at the moment. When the pressure built last year he held strong and even stepped up a gear. When he has to, he delivers what's needed. Just like Vettel and Alonso.

 

...

 

Can people please stop saying this .... he lost once over the course of a season (in his entire career - including pre F1) .... and since getting to F1 he has been statistically the most consistent driver since Fangio (some of that is the cars - but he has a better record than his team mates collectively by far - so its not just the cars) .... go look up the stats. I am tired of linking to them in every thread like this. 

 

And he got the cars cause he won everything below F1 in dominant fashion and came to F1 a year or two later than should because Ron was so anal about him winning the category before promoting him to the next one.... so by the time he got to F1 he was able to beat the reigning 2xWDC over the course of a season ....and was only not allowed to win the WDC because of Spygate. (.... ok that last bit is IMHO)   

[DILLIGAF]

No.

 

Topic should probably be in the stupid question thread.

Edited by DILLIGAF, 15 March 2015 - 07:39.

[hollowstar]

2 titles with two different teams...! Like it or not, he already is an all time great.

[Masteroftheuniverse]

In the immortal words of the great Kevin Nash

 

"I'm the **** I told ya"

 

Don't get it.

[SanDiegoGo]

Don't get it.

 no ****.

[krobinson]

It's a disgrace to compare him with Patrese but it clearly shows that you know nothing about this sport. In 2010 Alonso didn't do anything special. He had the 2nd fastest car especially in the latter half of the season and made much more mistakes than Hamilton did that year and contrary to what you have wrote, Senna had one of his worst years in 1992 and got beaten to 3rd by Schumacher in a much inferior car even Berger came close to him.

 

The great Martin Brundle showed just how great the Benetton was that year. It was a better car than the McLaren in races due to fuel economy.

 

Vettel only really dominated the end of 2013. 2010/ 12 could have went to a number of drivers.

.

The only reason 2010 and 2012 were so close were because of how much better the main rivals of Vettel were compared to him. Alonso in that Red Bull car would have wrapped up the title with 3-4 races to go.

 

[SanDiegoGo]

2 titles with two different teams...! Like it or not, he already is an all time great.

 

Word.

[motorhead]

Anyone in the grid could have done what this Merc duo did last year and today. Lewis is a great driver, but the fact is still that in last years WDC he had only one rival

[Knowlesy]

I think Hamilton has nothing much to prove really, same as Alonso. He has won in dodgy cars, won titles for two different teams and beaten off world champion teammates. He shows consistent evolution and improvement. Hard to say what more he could do really.

He is simply a genuine great.

[Knowlesy]

Anyone in the grid could have done what this Merc duo did last year and today. Lewis is a great driver, but the fact is still that in last years WDC he had only one rival

Which is more than many have had.

Schumacher, Mansell, Vettel for example had zero rivals (at times), dominant cars with genuinely average teammates.

Edited by Knowlesy, 15 March 2015 - 08:15.

[hollowstar]

Anyone in the grid could have done what this Merc duo did last year and today. Lewis is a great driver, but the fact is still that in last years WDC he had only one rival

It's not Lewis' fault other teams weren't up to the task. It can't be held against him. Otherwise, we could say Alonso had no rival in 2005 as the McLaren broke down in every race. Schumi had no opposition in 2001 (Kimi was too young), unrivaled in 2002 and 2004 so anyone else could have won these titles. He only deserves 4 titles, but actually he cheated for 2 of these so he really isn't great. Let's not even mention Vettel's Newey-mobiles for 4 consecutive years. And obviously anyone would have won the title in the BGP01. It's so easy to disminish any title anyone has ever won. Way too easy.

Edited by hollowstar, 15 March 2015 - 08:12.

[Szoelloe]

LH is coming from a worse team. He was considered as a great when he moved to Merc.

[velgajski1]

This thread should be renamed to 'Disgruntled Kimi and Alonso fanboy group therapy'.

[MastaKink]

I think Hamilton has nothing much to prove really, same as Alonso. He has won in dodgy cars, won titles for two different teams and beaten off world champion teammates. He shows consistent evolution and improvement. Hard to say what more he could do really.

He is simply a genuine great.

 

Agree with everything you wrote but this. Not his fault though, the dodgiest car he's had was the first half of 2009 and that was too dodgy for a realistic shot. 

[DarthWillie]

Yes, titles in cars this dominant have been challenged the last couple of years, so no change there.
The he won with different teams argument is by that token invalid.
Up till now there are some great drives, no argument there, but also two very poor wdc, neither one should have gone to the wire

[Markn93]

I think Lewis needs to push his car to a race win to be considered a great.

[GoldenColt]

I think Lewis needs to push his car to a race win to be considered a great.

 

But there would be other cars with more weight you know. Easier to push a Mercedes.

[hollowstar]

I think Lewis needs to push his car to a race win to be considered a great.

Bycicle bycicle bycicle
He needs to ride his bycicle

[Knowlesy]

Agree with everything you wrote but this. Not his fault though, the dodgiest car he's had was the first half of 2009 and that was too dodgy for a realistic shot.

Dodgy is probably strong. Inconsistent. Cars that his teammates are all at sea in, let's say.

That said, he dragged impressive speed out of that genuinely dodgy early season 2009 car at times. Melbourne that year was amazing.

[johnmhinds]

Hamilton joined this team before it was winning races and built it up around him into an unbeatable championship winning team.

What more do you want him to do?

[Speedoholic]

Does Alonso need to make better career decisions to be considered a true great?

[Knowlesy]

How does a driver 'rebuild' a team exactly?

This does irk me as well.

I am pretty sure de Montezemolo and Todt, plus a sackful of dollars, rebuilt Ferrari for example. They hired Schumacher and his team from Benetton followed to work with an already massive and well funded workforce.

But the narrative always has to make things seem more heroic than that I suppose. Unnecessarily so, the achievements by that team were so impressive.

[velgajski1]

Yes, titles in cars this dominant have been challenged the last couple of years, so no change there.
The he won with different teams argument is by that token invalid.
Up till now there are some great drives, no argument there, but also two very poor wdc, neither one should have gone to the wire

 

That is your view. I think 2008. was one of the best titles ever won in F1 history, certianly better than any of Alonso or Kimi titles.

[OO7]

I've found it quite ironic how folk consider Vettels titles unworthy but hamiltons worthy.

Vettel's title are completely worthy, he is an excellent driver.

[OO7]

Alonso's 2012 is far better than any season Hamilton has driven. In a car that never had the raw pace of the McLaren and Red Bull he was 3 points away from the title. Hamiltons in the same year had the fasest car and went missing for most of the first half of the season after Button beat him to win in Australia.

Alonso had a great 2012.  He had a fantastic team (despite his car not being the best), a car which was fantastic in the wet, the support of a subordinate team mate and very good reliability which enabled him to take advantage of hamstrung competitors ahead.

[RubalSher]

Agree with everything you wrote but this. Not his fault though, the dodgiest car he's had was the first half of 2009 and that was too dodgy for a realistic shot. 

 

I think what he is saying is that he won in Hungary 2009 despite the car being dodgy.

[RubberKubrick]

Seb dominating Bourdais is no surprise, there's a reason why Bourdais is not in F1. But for him to qually 4th says everything, in the wet that STR was a beast that day. Oh and lest we forget that Bourdais started from the pitlane, which explains him being a lap down quite easily, don't you think?

Not only that, it (the ToroRosso) must've been an enormous beast that weekend, because no ToroRosso driver since then could even repeat the fourth place in qualifying of a not that amazing par-average F1 driver that Bourdais was.

To such an extent was the quality of the ToroRosso in those weather frame conditions at that track.

[slideways]

Can people please stop saying this .... he lost once over the course of a season (in his entire career - including pre F1) .... and since getting to F1 he has been statistically the most consistent driver since Fangio (some of that is the cars - but he has a better record than his team mates collectively by far - so its not just the cars) .... go look up the stats. I am tired of linking to them in every thread like this. 

 

And he got the cars cause he won everything below F1 in dominant fashion and came to F1 a year or two later than should because Ron was so anal about him winning the category before promoting him to the next one.... so by the time he got to F1 he was able to beat the reigning 2xWDC over the course of a season ....and was only not allowed to win the WDC because of Spygate. (.... ok that last bit is IMHO)   

 

When I talk about consistency I'm not talking about his stats against teammates. I'm talking about his personal performances compared against what I believe his potential to be each race or season (I try to look at all drivers this way). Compared to long runs of form that some others have shown, Hamilton has been up and down. But this isn't necessarily always a bad thing. In my experience/opinion these guys can peak higher when they get in the sweet spot than the ones that can hit 95% week in week out. We saw that the second half of last year and again today imo. He has matured a lot and smoothed out the dips we've seen in the past. Rosberg was hugely disappointing today though. Falling asleep at the restart like that and not even mounting a challenge. Not a particularly strong statement to the world.

[MastaKink]

I think what he is saying is that he won in Hungary 2009 despite the car being dodgy.

 

It wasn't dodgy by then though, they'd turned the corner in Germany. 

[OO7]

I'm a Hamilton supporter and to be quite honest I quite enjoy when topics like this crop up, because when they do it invariably means Lewis is driving very well and succeeding in F1.  We've seen questions and myths posed, that have cast aspersions:

 

1) on his ability to win from other than Pole.

2) his ability to conserve tyres.

3) his ability to preserve his car.

4) his ability to work hard.

5) his ability to win in a car that wasn't the best.

6) his mind management.

7) his ability to conserve fuel.

 

and so on and so forth.  Yet questions continue to pop-up and he continues to knock them down.  Long may that continue.

[Gilles4Ever]

From the rules:

 

We have also taken the decision to ban the general driver threads. They have evolved beyond their original remit to track items of interest only to that driver and have been used to variously discuss areas outside of motorsport, on track incidents involving that driver, teammate battles and for many other discussions well outside of the topic. Threads can still be started to discuss issues affecting a single driver, but this must be with a specific remit or point of discussion, such as the possibility of them racing in a particular series or team.

 

The thread has become a general driver thread, the  discussion does not abide by the rules any longer so it is locked.