139 replies to this topic

[HP]

Why this new method? Measuring fuel pressure at different points. At latest to be implemented by the China grand Prix.

 

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/118066

 

Have there been any rumours about engine manufacturers (or teams) trying to come up with a creative interpretation of the rule? Which of the current engine configurations could lend to such abuse?

 

Will any team suffor from this?

 

Questions, questions.

[matd81]

Well these directives seem to only come about when one team is well ahead of the rest don't they? Exhaust Blown Diffuser, Engine Mappings etc...
I'd be pretty confident it's a Merc thing..

[AndersTallinder]

So somebody is pushing fuel through the rule sensor at maximum allowed rate, even when off throttle, and collecting it in a reservoir behind the sensor and then pumping it into the engine from there - faster than the rules allow - when it's needed? Sounds like it'd give a huge illegal boost, so likely Mercedes based on speed, but also that sounds like it would require some track specific mapping based on which corners you're off throttle... didn't Red Bull get something wrong with the mapping and the engine was giving the drivers huge boosts and sometimes almost no power at all? Maybe their boost reservoir isn't getting filled enough in some corners?

Edited by AndersTallinder, 15 March 2015 - 04:16.

[matd81]

Thinking back, there was a topic about Lewis Hamiltons footwork, that he is staying on throttle through the braking zone.
I know the FOM graphics don't always line up, but it does make sense if you had a "reservoir" or some sort, to fill it into a corner

[matd81]

Could also be a reason the Merc customer teams are so far off them, they don't know how to use it, or that it even exists

[asdf24]

There is nothing to suggest that Mercedes gp is using this exploit

[AndersTallinder]

^ We'll know who it is when we see who has a sudden drop in pace in China.

[AlonsoMcHonda]

Thinking back, there was a topic about Lewis Hamiltons footwork, that he is staying on throttle through the braking zone.
I know the FOM graphics don't always line up, but it does make sense if you had a "reservoir" or some sort, to fill it into a corner

that's for balancing the car under braking mate

[l8apex]

I think it is less sinister and more simple than a reservoir post sensor, which would be illegal.

I think the ultrasonic sensor can simply be tricked to allow more fuel flow based on the chemical makeup of the fuel.

There is a reason fuel development is playing a major roll after a period of maturity, perhaps the fuel development is simply for the sensor.

[GrumpyYoungMan]

It could just as easily be aimed at Ferrari, Honda or Renault and not aimed a Mercedes... (Has it occured to anyone (FIA) that maybe there is nothing "grey" on the Mercedes... they are simply doing the best job at the moment...)

 

We all know that Ferrari ran at a higher fuel flow rate last year in testing... and Red Bulls antics last year at Australia...

[OO7]

It could simply be the F.I.A being proactive in closing down avenues that could be used to cheat in the future.

[GrumpyYoungMan]

It could simply be the F.I.A being proactive in closing down avenues that could be used to cheat in the future.

That was kind of my thought too... maybe a tip off about a possible revenue?

[george1981]

It sounds like the FIA are worried that teams might put accumulators into the fuel pipe line. I'm not sure if these are currently allowed. There are lots of good engineering reasons to included accumulators in hydraulic lines, but it could make it easier for a team to cheat the fuel flow rate requirement.

[Mackey]

Could this explain the huge differences between Qualy times and race fastest laps? I know times should be slower in the race, but there´s like 4 seconds difference for some teams. 

[GrumpyYoungMan]

Could this explain the huge differences between Qualy times and race fastest laps? I know times should be slower in the race, but there´s like 4 seconds difference for some teams. 

I would say it is more down to the fuel limit... and making the tyres last...

[kissTheApex]

It could simply be the F.I.A being proactive in closing down avenues that could be used to cheat in the future.

That would be a first!

[pdac]

Does it really matter? They are addressing something that is obviously of concern. If it's a performance enhancer that someone is taking advantage of then we'll see some teams doing somewhat poorer than expected in future races.

[Clatter]

It could simply be the F.I.A being proactive in closing down avenues that could be used to cheat in the future.

That would be nice, but I doubt it. I think a team/s has brought this to their notice and that's why they are reacting,  otherwise it would have been done during the close season and not with this degree of urgency.

[Clatter]

Does it really matter? They are addressing something that is obviously of concern. If it's a performance enhancer that someone is taking advantage of then we'll see some teams doing somewhat poorer than expected in future races.

It does if a team is actually suspected of using this. In that case they would have been cheating and I'd love to know who, for how long and how big an advantage they may have had. Of course it might be something all teams are doing and the FIA have only just realised.

[Rhardrks]

There is nothing to suggest that Mercedes gp is using this exploit

 

Considering every other engine manufacturer is 2 seconds+ a lap slower, I think we can rule all of them out.

[pdac]

It does if a team is actually suspected of using this. In that case they would have been cheating and I'd love to know who, for how long and how big an advantage they may have had. Of course it might be something all teams are doing and the FIA have only just realised.

 

But you'll probably have a good idea who, if anyone, it was from their loss of performance in China.

[OO7]

That would be nice, but I doubt it. I think a team/s has brought this to their notice and that's why they are reacting,  otherwise it would have been done during the close season and not with this degree of urgency.

Yes, that is a possibility.  But it doesn't mean, as some have suggested, that a team or teams are actually using such methods to circumvent the regulations.

[V8 Fireworks]

I read somewhere that they basically added a reservoir after the fuel flow meter. Meaning that in low power phases they pump more fuel than the engine actually needs (but within the flow allowance), save the excess fuel in a reservoir located behind the flow meter, and in high power phases - when they would be limited by the flow allowance - they add additional fuel from the reservoir, unnoticed by the fuel flow meter. Quite a logical thing to do actually and a gaping hole in the regulations, once again.

 

The rumour concerns the Ferrari and Mercedes teams, and if true, is an incredible allegation. 

 

 

Related to power units:

Based on this article, apparently Ferrari and Mercedes have gained an advantage by finding the way to ignore fuel flow restriction, to increase fuel flow rate. So by Chinese GP based on FIA request, fuel pressure will be measured at various points in all of the power units to allow FIA to monitor the fuel flow through the system in more depth.

 

Source: http://tecnicaformul.../#ixzz3V3G3QO8B

Translation with mighty google translateor    : https://translate.go...t-text=&act=url

 

As we know, the cars are monitored by the FIA supplied fuel flow meter.  The allegation is the storage of fuel downstream of the meter; for use under hard acceleration.  Supposedly the FIA are onto it and requiring the teams to supply more extensive fuel pressure data for FIA monitoring....

Edited by V8 Fireworks, 22 March 2015 - 13:13.

[Scuderia312]

Rubbish topic, there is nothing about that on Twitter.

[Risil]

Who said anything about Twitter?

[SealTheDiffuser]

isnt this "old" news

 

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/118066

 

FIA issues new directive to measure fuel pressure (for GP China implementation)

 

also:

 

https://translate.go...t-text=&act=url

[V8 Fireworks]

The article quotes that Ferrari, Mercedes and Honda use 500 bar injectors, while Renault uses 250 bar injectors.  The suspicion is that headroom of the higher pressure allows for fuel to be stored momentarily than reapplied at high pressure.

 

The above (the pressure of the injectors) is a fact that surely can be easily verified to check the authenticity of the article? 

[V8 Fireworks]

isnt this "old" news

 

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/118066

 

 

Sorry I missed that article but it's certain an intruiging topics (as all clampdowns on potential cheating in F1 are!)

 

 

This will allow the FIA to monitor the fuel flow through the system in more depth rather than relying purely on the single FIA-homologated fuel-flow sensor that all cars must carry in their fuel tank.

This could potentially allow closer monitoring of technical regulation 5.10.5, which states that "any device, system or procedure the purpose and/or effect of which is to increase the flow rate after the measurement point is prohibited".

 

There must be a suspicion for FIA to suddenly crackdown on this matter

 

 

But as the fuel flow sensor is in the fuel tank, there is some distance between it and the fuel injectors, as indicated in the diagram below.

There, you could potentially accumulate fuel during periods of low demand from the engine.

This could subsequently be pumped into the engine at a greater pressure and/or fuel-flow rate than stipulated by the regulations.

This greater fuel flow would increase engine power, which is currently restricted by fuel-flow regulations. - Scarbs

 

Edited by V8 Fireworks, 22 March 2015 - 13:26.

[itsademo]

lets not forget its not cheating as they have not exceeded the flow rate as the rules dictate

They allegedly just saw a loop hole and exploited it just like many other teams have always done.

 

and lets not forget it still makes not one iota of difference to the fact merc are just plain faster into through and out of the corner

besides if this was even remotely true how come we see lewis with some of the lowest fuel consumption figures rather than the highest

certainly if you were running more fuel when accelerating due to an extra chamber in the fuel system that would show up in fuel consumption figures

as you would still use the same when not accelerating and more when decelerating (filling up this mythical chamber)

[pdac]

I can't remember the number of times teams have been accused (and, indeed, proven) to be bending/breaking the rules. The point is there are rules, which should be adhered to, and techniques used to enforce those rules. All teams have, and will continue to, work towards adhering to the enforcement process rather than the rule. Personally, I dislike this, but it's nothing new. As pointed out, when the FIA feel that a non-conformant car is passing it's tests, they will add/amend the tests.

[Mackey]

I understand this can be a big advantage in Qualifying or moments in the race like the start or when overtaking.

Edited by Mackey, 22 March 2015 - 13:36.

[Baddoer]

Thats pure cheating because Red Bull is unrelated.

[Nicktendo86]

Very clever stuff. I class it very much as cheating, they are trying to use more fuel than allowed and trick the fuel flow meter, similar to red bull designing bodywork to pass deflection tests but bend on track. Hope the FIA get on top if it or get rid of the silly fuel flow regs.

[SenorSjon]

The sensible thing to do is just ban the fuel flow meter and be done with it.

[paulogman]

hope they close that loophole so renault is only 85 hp down instead of 100! maybe Horner will shut up...

[SenorSjon]

I guess Ferrari would feel it more and the Merc has another second gained... yay. Is it 2016 yet?

[OO7]

'Is this just a speculation in the paddock? It is possible, but since China will see if something will change in the peak power of more thirsty for petrol than in the past existing engines.'

[YoungGun]

Can someone help me understand, isn't this the same fuel that is allotted in the 100kgs that is simply being conserved and used at a different time?

[SanDiegoGo]

i heard the rumours concerned honda and renault. i have no proof and i'm just making it up. can i haz my own thread?

[ExFlagMan]

I'm sure there where stories about post flow meter fuel storage/pump pressure following the Australian GP last year. Seem to recall RB might have been claiming it as a reason why they failed the flow-meter rate rule.

Edited by ExFlagMan, 22 March 2015 - 13:57.

[OO7]

Can someone help me understand, isn't this the same fuel that is allotted in the 100kgs that is simply being conserved and used at a different time?

Yes.  The regulations limit fuel flow to 100kg/h, but with this system in place, teams exploiting it would be able to exceed that fuel flow limit, without the F.I.A homologated sensors being able to detect the excess flow.

[Wuzak]

I'm sure there where stories about post flow meter fuel storage/pump pressure following the Australian GP last year. Seem to recall RB might have been claiming it as a reason why they failed the flow-meter rate rule.

 

RBR claimed that the fuel flow meter in Ricciardo's car wasn't acting properly and so decided, unilaterally, to trust their own injector maps instead. The FIA instructed RBR to reduce the fuel flow as their data was showing it as too high, but RBR chose to ignore this and paid the penalty.

[Afterburner]

F1 needs this to be true and to have an impact on the pecking order after the disaster that was Australia. Wishful thinking says it'll expose the folly of the flow regs and get them abolished altogether.

[Wuzak]

Very clever stuff. I class it very much as cheating, they are trying to use more fuel than allowed and trick the fuel flow meter, similar to red bull designing bodywork to pass deflection tests but bend on track. Hope the FIA get on top if it or get rid of the silly fuel flow regs.

 

"Tricking" the fuel flow meter is expressly forbidden in the rules. If any manufacturer is actually doing it there could be quite severe punishment.

[paulogman]

so the only reason redbull suck is because of this? lol

[JHSingo]

There's only one thing for it. Disqualify Mercedes from both championships.

 

[ExFlagMan]

If they are not exceeding 500bar injector pressure then they are within the rules - if Renault only use 250bar then that is a design decision they must have made for some reason known to them

Edited by ExFlagMan, 22 March 2015 - 14:21.

[SenorSjon]

That would mean 8 cars without engine. Then hope Manor can find the batch file to start the car, otherwise the grid would be very small.

[redreni]

Can someone help me understand, isn't this the same fuel that is allotted in the 100kgs that is simply being conserved and used at a different time?

 

Yes, it's not a way of exceeding the fuel allowance for the race. But the regs also mandate a maximum instantaneous fuel flow rate.

 

The race fuel allowance alone would prevent teams from just pumping more and more fuel into the engine throughout the race, because then they would run out of fuel, but the reason for the instantaneous fuel flow limit was to prevent people using loads of fuel early on to gain track position, gambling on a SC which may never come, and then being dangerously slow at the end. It's possible the manufacturers also didn't want to allow the engines to run full rich in qualy due to concerns about reliability and possibly even safety, as we would then see appreciably higher top speeds in qualy, when fuel saving doesn't matter.

 

The effect of having both a race fuel use limit and an instantaneous fuel flow limit is that, at most tracks (though not all), you can't use fuel at a significantly higher rate than what will get you to the end within the regulatory limit. If everyone put all the fuel they're allowed to into the car at the start, at most tracks, nobody would have to save any fuel. Of course, teams put less fuel in to save starting weight, and then end up having to save fuel anyway, so in that sense the regulation doesn't actually work the way it's supposed to.

 

Regarding the issue of whether this is cheating or not, the regulations and technical directives are very clear that there's a limit to how fast fuel can go into the engine, they're very clear on how this is measured, and they're very clear that any system the purpose or effect of which is to increase the flow after the measurement point is illegal.

 

And it should be noted that, as with Red Bull's hand-adjustable ride height system, it's the mere presence of such a system on the car that is illegal. The FIA doesn't have to prove that it's been used. So the teams can't say "how do you know we're exceeding the fuel flow limit in races when your flow meter says we're not?"

 

The FIA doesn't have to show that they were exceeding the fuel flow limit. If there's a resevoir of fuel between the flow meter and the engine that can be used to selectively supplement the flow of fuel into the engines at certain times, and held in reserve at other times, that's a system that can trick the fuel flow meter and that's not allowed to be on the car at all, and any car that is found to be able to do that is in breach of the regulations.

Edited by redreni, 22 March 2015 - 14:40.

[OO7]

If they are not exceeding 500bar injector pressure then they are within the rules - if Renault only use 250bar then that is a design decision they must have made for some reason known to them

The allegation is not that the pressure limit (500 bar) is being exceeded, rather that fuel is being accumulated upstream of the fuel flow sensor.  This would allow the collected fuel to be injected at more than 100kg/h, which breaches the regulations governing fuel flow.