547 replies to this topic

[V8 Fireworks]

 

“The FIA have a torque sensor on every engine. They have a power output that they can see which every power unit is producing.

“They have the facts. They could quite easily come up with some form of equalisation.”

- Horner, http://www.speedcafe...gine-disparity/

 

Horner seems to be forgetting that F1 racing is a competition.   

[LuckyStrike1]

 

Horner seems to be forgetting that F1 racing is a competition.   

 

 

 

That's actually exactly what he remembers, and he is right now competing. 

[SanDiegoGo]

well, he's full of ideas lately, isn't he?

[Murl]

well, he's full of ideas lately, isn't he?

 

 

I'd love to hear his ideas on some forms of equalisation, of budgets and FOM income for example.

[Scuderia312]

He can also run a team in GP2 or GP3 or FP3.5 if he is so keen to have equal power unit, as far as I know all drivers have the same engines in these categories.

[Sardukar]

 

Horner seems to be forgetting that F1 racing is a competition.   

 

 

But its not a competition, teams can't freely make changes to the engines like they could to aero (to copy red bull) in the past.

[P123]

Lets first of all have a fairer distribution of income, to the teams and among the teams.

[OO7]

But its not a competition, teams can't freely make changes to the engines like they could to aero (to copy red bull) in the past.

Ferrari seem to have done pretty well.

[Rasputin]

I think Horner is desperately fighting to keep his job and team alive, as I fear that Mateshitz is about to give up on this charade called F1.

[Peter Perfect]

I'm sure it (i.e. FIA stepping in to make 'clarifications')  will happen at some point soon. As Horner points out it's happened many times before to rein in a dominating team, most recently RB themselves.

[P123]

But its not a competition, teams can't freely make changes to the engines like they could to aero (to copy red bull) in the past.

They can actually change quite a lot. As 007 alluded to, look at the leap Ferrari have made, and that's without full use of the token scheme. Should there have been aero parity when that was Red Bull's strength? For all the ego of Newey, Horner and Red Bull in general, and the constant jibes at Renault, they seem not have made a particularly great car this year.

[Nonesuch]

There are dozens of racing series where everything is equalized. F1 has been moving more and more in that direction for the past ten years. Not, I would argue, to its benefit.

 

These guys may be team principals, but they have very little principals of their own. They'll do anything to gain an advantage or to brush away their disadvantage. This is no way to come up with a solid set of technical and sporting regulations.

 

Red Bull is in an interesting position, though. Does their funder care enough to spend the next few years building their way back to the top, or is their marketing effort in F1 approaching its end?

[P123]

I'm sure it (i.e. FIA stepping in to make 'clarifications')  will happen at some point soon. As Horner points out it's happened many times before to rein in a dominating team, most recently RB themselves.

They tried it last season with the banning of the FRIC systems, when the belief was that it was one of Mercedes strengths over the rest of the competition.

[GrumpyYoungMan]

He (Horner) wasn't moaning when he was winning - Bad loser.

[Sunnyy]

The only solution is change the regs and bring it back to aero dependant regs. 

[GrumpyYoungMan]

The only solution is change the regs and bring it back to aero dependant regs. 

no, No and NO!

Edited by GrumpyYoungMan, 15 March 2015 - 10:25.

[GrumpyYoungMan]

They tried it last season with the banning of the FRIC systems, when the belief was that it was one of Mercedes strengths over the rest of the competition.

This - Could this be aimed at them?

Edited by GrumpyYoungMan, 15 March 2015 - 10:27.

[itsnoe30]

The FIA should allow unlimited design/testing of engines for a year or two. And get rid of the 4 engines for entire season rule for this year. That way other manufacturers can catch up and it won't negatively affect the smaller teams with little budget.

 

You can't punish Mercedes for making the best engine. But you should allow others to catch up.

Edited by itsnoe30, 15 March 2015 - 10:29.

[PaulTodd]

He (Horner) wasn't moaning when he was winning - Bad loser.

No but the FIA did change the rules a bit to slow them down.

[Peter Perfect]

They tried it last season with the banning of the FRIC systems, when the belief was that it was one of Mercedes strengths over the rest of the competition.

 

Good point, I'd forgotten about that. Doesn't mean they'll stop there though.

[Sunnyy]

No but the FIA did change the rules a bit to slow them down.

 

 

They banned Mercs Fric - did not work. They changed the nose did not work. They are trying every little thing to destabilise Merc.  The point is they are clueless as to what to do with Merc - its not just the engine. 

[AlexS]

A capitalist afraid of competition is always a socialist.

[Knot]

Ferrari seem to have done pretty well.

 

If you think getting your ass kicked by 33 seconds is doing pretty well, then there's nothing more you have to add to this discussion.

[stewie]

Didn't see him complain when they won 4 years on the trot....

[Mat13]

What he should be asking for is for in season development to be allowed on engines. That's the sporting solution- FIA enforced 'equalisation' is dragging one team down to match the others, which is a backwards way to do it. Although easier and cheaper than the other teams having to do their job better, though.

[GrumpyYoungMan]

What he should be asking for is for in season development to be allowed on engines. That's the sporting solution- FIA enforced 'equalisation' is dragging one team down to match the others, which is a backwards way to do it. Although easier and cheaper than the other teams having to do their job better, though.

But by allowing in season developments the gap may get bigger....

 

and we all know what happened the last time engine equalization was allowed!

Edited by GrumpyYoungMan, 15 March 2015 - 10:38.

[maverick69]

I've got a funny feeling that DM is threatening to pull the plug...... 

[tmekt]

They banned Mercs Fric - did not work. They changed the nose did not work. They are trying every little thing to destabilise Merc.  The point is they are clueless as to what to do with Merc - its not just the engine. 

The nose change was for aesthetics. There isn't some big FIA conspiracy to hamper Merc's development.

 

Other teams trying to do it, of course. It's a competition and if rules are changed by the commission everybody has to obey, including Mercedes. Mercedes is free to try to influence the opinion just as much as Horner is.

Edited by tmekt, 15 March 2015 - 10:42.

[itsnoe30]

But by allowing in season developments the gap may get bigger....

 

and we all know what happened the last time engine equalization was allowed!

It may get bigger, but it's unlikely. And either way, it's worth the gamble if they wanna make the season/racing exciting.

Edited by itsnoe30, 15 March 2015 - 10:39.

[GrumpyYoungMan]

I've got a funny feeling that DM is threatening to pull the plug...... 

Let him - F1 is bigger than 1 (2) teams...

 

Is he a bad loser as well?

[krapmeister]

They can actually change quite a lot. As 007 alluded to, look at the leap Ferrari have made, and that's without full use of the token scheme. Should there have been aero parity when that was Red Bull's strength? For all the ego of Newey, Horner and Red Bull in general, and the constant jibes at Renault, they seem not have made a particularly great car this year.

Don't really know how you can say that tbh - considering the problems with the Renault/Honda PU's then it's too hard to say atm just how good or bad the Red Bull/STR and McLaren chassis' are...

[Exb]

The FIA should allow unlimited design/testing of engines for a year or two. And get rid of the 4 engines for entire season rule for this year. That way other manufacturers can catch up and it won't negatively affect the smaller teams with little budget.
 
You can't punish Mercedes for making the best engine. But you should allow others to catch up.

This is a problem - Ferrari have improved a huge amount - but nowhere near enough to challenge Mercedes (and with the engine tokens it means Mercedes can develop the exact same amount of the power unit as those trying to catch up) there is a good chance they will never close the gap!
Renault don't appear to know HOW to improve - with the limited tokens they can decide what bit to change but the lack of testing means they have to guess at a solution and if it doesn't work they are stuck with it - take this year, they have changed 2/3rd of their allowed tokens and yet Red Bull are saying they don't see an increase in power and reliability is actually worse than this time last year (which is unbelievable when you think back to the state they were in last year). The problem is by the time they ran the upgraded engine in Jerez it was way to late to do anything about it and now they are stuck with it for the year.

I don't know the answer - remove the restrictions and allow testing and eventually they will all end up with similar performance if they throw everything at it (although in the short term there is every chance Merc will go further ahead as they seem to have the best grasp of these engines) BUT that would send costs through the roof and out of all the engine manufacturers Renault seem the ones that don't want to put as much money in. Mercedes already did that from the off and they are now reaping the rewards.

[Knot]

and we all know what happened the last time engine equalization was allowed!

 

Yeah! All the engines were equal. V-10 were on par at the end, so too were the V-8's.

 

Now F1 has 4 engines that cost many, many times more than an unlimited supply of V-10's cost.

[DerFlugplatz]

Christian, do you want some cheese with that w(h)ine?

[wj_gibson]

No one forced RBR to use Renault engines.

[F1Champion]

I remember when Horner was being praised after a race and how he said that the other teams should put up or shut up and its their job to catch up with Red Bull. He has to accept his own words. He never conceded anything so why should the other teams? You think Ferrari wants engine parity at this moment after leapfrogging Renault powered teams?

[Mat13]

But by allowing in season developments the gap may get bigger....

and we all know what happened the last time engine equalization was allowed!

It may well do, but only up to a point- there is a ceiling to what an engine can do, regardless of how you bolt it together. My point is, is that if Horner was really interested in the competition, is that he should be asking for the opportunity to catch up, rather than having Mercedes slowed down.

[Donkey]

Ferrari were the ones whinging last year demanding to go back to V8 NA engines but they were still obviously developing their V6 turbo behind the scenes and did a fairly good job of improving it (as demonstrated by the Sauber jump in performance as well). Ok there is still a gap to the Mercedes engine, but hopefully it will decrease (assuming Ferrari spend their tokens wisely).

 

Renault on the other hand just didn't find as much performance from their engine as Ferrari did. Having said that, the Toro Rossos were very competitive this weekend with the Renault engine so I suspect some of the performance loss for RBR is coming from the chassis itself (as weird as it sounds for a team which designed the ultimate aero/chassis package for 4/5 years in a row).

Edited by Donkey, 15 March 2015 - 10:51.

[sanchez854]

Mclaren and Honda are in much worse situation but neither they are complaining about it or blaming each other for their current shape. 

 

Even my fish has better memory than Horner. He was very happy when Sebastian win every race from p1 and even back then they never treated equally to their both drivers, now he is talking about "parity"

 

I call this just whining.

Edited by sanchez854, 15 March 2015 - 10:47.

[Dalin80]

Didn't see him complain when they won 4 years on the trot....

 

He did actually! Constantly. Every opportunity he was whining about how much power the merc engine had and every time he mentioned it it went up slightly.

[Timstr11]

 

Tobias Grüner AMuS ‏@tgruener  5m

5 minutes ago

Red Bull hits out at Renault & FIA. Marko: "We consider leaving F1 if cost-value-ratio ist not right" AMuS (German): http://ams.to/RB-AUS 

 

 

Good. Renault are looking to buy a team Mr Marko!

Edited by Timstr11, 15 March 2015 - 10:49.

[Wingcommander]

Tough luck.

[superden]

Nobody moans when they are winning.

[wrighty]

I think this is an illegal in-season [Berniev2.0] mode test by CHorner, Red Bull should be sanctioned by the FiA.

Edited by wrighty, 15 March 2015 - 10:50.

[maverick69]

Horner is also doing his dirty dishes in public: http://adamcooperf1....etrograde-step/

[Razoola]

One way sort of parity could work is a team swapping current World championship points for development tokens. There would be problems with such a system however but its something teams could think about.

[northanmonkee2]

Thing is Williams , lotus and force India use identical engines albeit some with different fluids and software/maps , and they are no where
In pace to merc , it can't all be about the power outage ie bhp or torque , Some advantage must be a very good chassis with
Very good aero , de tuning merc engines to close the field up won't affect pecking order at the top , but it will push Williams lotus
And force India further back . I am sorry but Horner isnt coming across very well , starting to sound like a very poor loser

It's not Mercedes fault that Renault engines are basicly not fit for purpose , Ferrari have made improvements
And will continue to improve maybe at some point in the future getting parity or close enough that it's negligble

[Murl]

Red Bull is in an interesting position, though. Does their funder care enough to spend the next few years building their way back to the top, or is their marketing effort in F1 approaching its end?

 

 

Losing is not part of their marketing plan.

 

They do seem entrenched in F1, I can't see them wanting to leave.

F1 has to understand the importance of Red Bull remaining a winning brand, it's for the health of the sport.

[OO7]

If you think getting your ass kicked by 33 seconds is doing pretty well, then there's nothing more you have to add to this discussion.

If you cannot see that Ferrari have made some significant improvements to their PU in relation to Mercedes, then there's nothing more you have to add to this discussion.

Edited by OO7, 15 March 2015 - 18:15.

[maverick69]

Good. Renault are looking to buy a team Mr Marko!

 

Good riddance.

 

They were gifted a seat at the top table without any history - and (IMHO) cheated their arses off for years with no significant sanction.