226 replies to this topic

[jimjimjeroo]

http://www.motorspor...in-doubt-490864

Usual drills from RB I guess, threaten to quit to get their own way I guess

[MortenF1]

Most likely a non-story. What would it cost to bail out when they've committed to 2020?

[Risil]

Most likely a non-story. What would it cost to bail out when they've committed to 2020?

 

Hands up who remembers those MotoGP manufacturers that committed for years then pulled out anyway?

[Paco]

Frankly, that's the stance I'd take and what f1 is facing and should be facing. It's absolutely ridiculous to stop and limit development of anything f1... Why would you go racing, spending 100 million dollars plus,identify an issue and not be allowed to fix it without huge significant penalties..utter madness. Yeah I know widget is not working, but I can't fix by the power to be, o I'll just throw away our reputation, 100million dollars and trot along smiling...then next year get a couple things wrong again figure out what's wrong and be stuck again.. Now 200millikn the hole and another year of disgrace..

Edited by Paco, 15 March 2015 - 22:09.

[ExFlagMan]

Bloody plagiarists - threatening to quit has always been the remit of the red team....

[UPRC]

Well with Ferrari looking good so far this year, someone has to complain about pulling out from the sport.

[Paco]

I was embarrassed for f1 in watching this weeks gp.. So sad watching teams be strung along with stupid anti development rules. So not in the spirit of f1... Of show casing technology and drivers driving all out.

Pretty sure MGP detuned their cars cause of the mess that is the grid in the era of limited testing and locked in bad developments..

Edited by Paco, 15 March 2015 - 22:13.

[Ellios]

I'm sure someone posted a financial report that stated Red Bull were making about 20 million a year from F1 after costs were taken out

[paulogman]

Frankly, that's the stance I'd take and what f1 is facing and should be facing. It's absolutely ridiculous to stop and limit development of anything f1... Why would you go racing, spending 100 million dollars plus,identify an issue and not be allowed to fix it without huge significant penalties..utter madness. Yeah I know widget is not working, but I can't fix by the power to be, o I'll just throw away our reputation, 100million dollars and trot along smiling...then next year get a couple things wrong again figure out what's wrong and be stuck again.. Now 200millikn the hole and another year of disgrace..

there was no limit on development of the new power units when the regulations were confirmed.
red Bull at the time were using at the time a tiny kers unit because that's all they wanted. the car was meant to be as light as possible and Newey wanted tight aero.
they just assumed they could continue on in that style but they were wrong and are paying the price.
merc focused on maximizing the package and did the best job.
red Bull can piss off, oh wait, they can't until 2020.
maybe they can buy ferrari engines? although they probably should sort themselves out. I doubt ferrari would allow them to lay all the blame at their door

Edited by paulogman, 15 March 2015 - 22:24.

[EthanM]

there was no limit on development of the new power units when the regulations were confirmed.
red Bull at the time were using at the time a tiny kers unit because that's all they wanted. the car was meant to be as light as possible and Newey wanted tight aero.
they just assumed they could continue on in that style but they were wrong and are paying the price.
merc focused on maximizing the package and did the best job.
red Bull can piss off, oh wait, they can't until 2020.
maybe they can buy ferrari engines? although they probably should sort themselves out. I doubt ferrari would allow them to lay all the blame at their door

 

 

redbull don't build engines. Like McLaren don't build engines.

 

The argument fails one basic test: Red Bull's advantage could always be eroded by a rival TEAM. Redbull is powerless to erode Merc's PU advantage. And further to that their supplier is limited from attempting to.

[chunder27]

The teams that pullde out of MotoGP mirrir those that did the same in WRC, all Japanese, Suzuki, Kawasaki, to go with Subarua dn Mitsubishi in WRC.

 

GP did the same thing, they went from a larger engine to a smaller engine, made the bikes faster  as it put more development into electronics and tyre grip, then they bought the cc limit up again and Suzuki have come back.

 

Rule changes cost teams a massive amount, so it will always favour the best budgets, having been to the lmore place and seen the size of a place that largely only builds F1 engines it is no surprise to me theya re dominating, Ferrari adn Rebault or nowhere near that scale of engine development surely? The team might be better funded maybe, but I have never seen anything liek Brixworth, row upon row of multi million dollar CNC machines staggering considering what theya re maiing

[superden]

Not winning, stamp feet, whinge. Reset, repeat.

[scheivlak]

It's not just  Mercedes vs Renault. It seems that they did a sub par job themselves. I wonder if their car is significantly better than the Toro Rosso.

 

Seems they try to divert attention from the fact that their chassis isn't that special anymore.

[ninetyzero]

If Red Bull were still winning these rumours wouldn't be flying around. Fair weather team.

[Paco]

there was no limit on development of the new power units when the regulations were confirmed.
red Bull at the time were using at the time a tiny kers unit because that's all they wanted. the car was meant to be as light as possible and Newey wanted tight aero.
they just assumed they could continue on in that style but they were wrong and are paying the price.
merc focused on maximizing the package and did the best job.
red Bull can piss off, oh wait, they can't until 2020.
maybe they can buy ferrari engines? although they probably should sort themselves out. I doubt ferrari would allow them to lay all the blame at their door

2020 is bs. Redbull racing is separate from redbull corporate which in itself is protected by many smaller distribution companies..

Easy to stop cutting the cheques, bankrupt the team(s) and move on just as so many billionaires have done in f1 and in many businesses in other industries. People just to get its easy to go bankrupt and then the contact is over.. Just like stupid cost cap ideas where teams would then just create sooo many companies to hide r&d activities and prob profitable r&d companies not unlike Williams r&d company arm which is separate from Williams racing for liability purposes, would not want to get sued at the r&d company an destroy the racing team as a result.

Bernie and company can not force anyone to lose money in f1... No matter the contract. If f1 reputation is ruined, and it very much is.. Redbull could counter sue the fia, Bernie and co. for a breach of contract as well, saying the fia had a negative impact on f1 and in return to rb racing due to stupid rules not letting them develop their engines to parity or address problems is damaging to the brand. They could loses of hundreds of millions of the books show it and put all the blame on f1...

Doesn't mean it's right or correct, but they'd need to hash it out in public court and no way would the fia want secret contract exposed as public record..

Edited by Paco, 15 March 2015 - 23:15.

[Paco]

If Red Bull were still winning these rumours wouldn't be flying around. Fair weather team.

I don't think that's true, even back when they were dominate rumors said lack of competition were concerning to them due to all the rumors of out of spec wings etc..

[MCR]

Seriously, fuk these guys.

 

They are just a bunch of sore losers, get on with it, while they won 8 straight championships the other teams sucked it up in the spirit of competition.

 

Complain and bicker about the rules, but threatening to quit in an attempt to get your own way goes against the spirit of competition.

 

Renault fooked up, it is Red Bulls responsibility to get their own house in order first.

Edited by MCR, 15 March 2015 - 23:21.

[M6Exit20]

What a bunch of children.

Whaaaaa! Mummy! The other boys are mean and won't let us win anymore we want to go home and take our ball with us.

We'll only take part if we get to win everything. 

[kissTheApex]

Good riddance! Don't let the door hit you on your way out!

All manufacturers agreed on frozen power units starting from the first year of a completely new formula, with this silly "token" scheme, and now they're realizing it was a mistake? Cry me a river. I didn't like it when the team I supported did it last year and I like it even less when Red bull does it when they don't even manufacture their own engine.

Edited by kissTheApex, 15 March 2015 - 23:27.

[superden]

You win together, you lose together.

Anything else just makes you look like a c*ck.

[MarkRaishbrook]

What a bunch of children.

Whaaaaa! Mummy! The other boys are mean and won't let us win anymore we want to go home and take our ball with us.

We'll only take part if we get to win everything. 

 

Entirely agree. They sound like spoilt kids.

[Paco]

What a bunch of children.
Whaaaaa! Mummy! The other boys are mean and won't let us win anymore we want to go home and take our ball with us.
We'll only take part if we get to win everything. 

How about being a giving "a chance to win".. As it stands right now and for the foreseeable future if teams are not to allow to develop engines, MGP and Mercedes powered cars will walk away for years with the wins... Simply because limited tokens to get up to speed, Mercedes will continue to have the best engine... So is every other team suppose to just say.. Ok.. No.

This crap about development freezes means teams spending 10-100s of millions trying to find tenths of second in chassis development when seconds are lost due to engine freezes. Probably the stupidest thing I have ver seen in f1... Ever.

[ninetyzero]

I don't think that's true, even back when they were dominate rumors said lack of competition were concerning to them due to all the rumors of out of spec wings etc..

 

Basically they've been whinging since practically day one.

[Nitropower]

Pitiful. They win 4 years in a row with one of the most dominant cars in history at that time, and only one year after and one race with no victories, they threaten with quitting? Well don't let the door hit your arrse! The others have been living with your aero and ebd superiority so many years and they never threatened nothing. Go throw your toys out of the pram in Austria if you can't take it!

[Knot]

DM has always said that if he's unhappy with the way the sport is headed, he'll leave.

 

I don't blame him. FIA come up with ever more inane and childish rules seemingly every year.

 

Besides, RB is primarily a youth oriented brand, with CVC openly stated they want no part of, so why hang around?

 

A lot of you are totally missing the plot. It's not that RBR are losing, it's that competition is effectively banned, and that's what has all of RBR's brass upset with the sport.

[loki]

[turssi]

They had a good run and made their brand name known. Times change, maybe they should dominate FE now that they already did it all in F1.

[Philip Lee KK]

RBR had aero/chassis advantage when they dominated.   And there is no rule preventing other teams to catch up if they are good enough.

 

Now Renault hasn't done a good enough job but they are kind of locked in from developing (other than limited tokens). Unless RBR changes engine supplier, they are likely to continue to be uncompetitive for a while.  

 

I can see why they want to pull out because it is a lot more difficult to catch up as Mercedes can also develop.  The technology is fairly new and will take many years before the law of diminishing returns kicks in.

[superden]

Then pull out. **** off and take your faux interest in sport, your foul, tooth rotting energy drink and your corporate bullsh*t disguised as like, duuude, way extreme to the max coolness with you.

[MCR]

DM has always said that if he's unhappy with the way the sport is headed, he'll leave.

 

I don't blame him. FIA come up with ever more inane and childish rules seemingly every year.

 

Besides, RB is primarily a youth oriented brand, with CVC openly stated they want no part of, so why hang around?

 

A lot of you are totally missing the plot. It's not that RBR are losing, it's that competition is effectively banned, and that's what has all of RBR's brass upset with the sport.

 

You are missing the plot, the rules are the rules, everyone had to abide by the rules in the Red Bull era, and everyone should have to abide by the rules in the Merc era.

 

RBR want exceptions because they are RBR.  They have already been pushing through new rules with development tokens, and are looking to scrap the v6 engines asap simply because they are behind.

 

RBR used to play the 'we play by the rules card' when others where trying to eat into their technological advantage, now it suddenly isn't good enough.  It smacks of hypocrisy.

 

I agree that F1 is too restrictive, but it has been like that for years and there was no stink made when RBR were winning 8 championships in a row.

Edited by MCR, 16 March 2015 - 00:45.

[pacwest]

Red Bull are the Anaheim Mighty Ducks of F1. If they leave another will replace them. 

Williams are still here. Ferrari. McLaren. Mercedes may have a few decades of tenure. They will have doldrums. Red Bull in F1 20 years from now? Laughable. Even Ford left. FORD. Honda gave it up for a while.

 

Red Bull is nothing to me in many ways. Fanboys who have been into F1 for 7 years will think this is some sort of epic change. Nope.

 

For those that don't get the NHL reference, the Ducks entered the NHL after a really shitty kids movie sold a ton of theatre tickets. Disney bought their way into the NHL, they won Lord Stanley's Cup eventually. But their team is still based on a low budget disney movie about kids playing hockey. I take Red Bull seriously, but in F1 there is old money and new money. They aren't old money.

[Knot]

You are missing the plot, the rules are the rules, everyone had to abide by the rules in the Red Bull era, and everyone should have to abide by the rules in the Merc era.

 

That is a rather naive argument of a simpleton.

[noikeee]

Red Bull are like Benetton part 2. They WILL leave, the question is when. Might be tomorrow, might be in 20 years time.

 

I don't think it's happening just yet, but a few more years of not winning and they'll be tempted to. The only teams that are guaranteed of not going anywhere for a long while is Ferrari, McLaren and Williams (and even then, when Sir Frank is gone, Williams might sell to someone) because those are racing teams. All others are either sponsorship PR exercises dependent on success, or temporary personal ego trips by their owner, or real racing teams like McLaren and Williams but with nowhere near their financial stability.

[mtknot]

The rules are just terrible in general. The token system doesn't really cut costs down, they'll just spend a hell more R&D on a single part. Having less engines also forces them to invest more per part...Aero regs are so close to being spec, and boring. Heck even indy has better aero regulations at the moment despite having a spec chassis. 

 

Really no team is able to dig themselves up to fix the deficiencies in their engines. Homologation should really only be applied after there is some parity with the engine spec, or at least some reasonable level of competition. 

Edited by mtknot, 16 March 2015 - 01:38.

[Jimisgod]

They're right, who'd want to pay $300 million a year to take part in the farce we saw yesterday?

[Tsarwash]

They're right, who'd want to pay $300 million a year to take part in the farce we saw yesterday?

What particular farce was that ? I watched the highlights of a slightly dull race. What did you watch ?

[Tsarwash]

 

Besides, RB is primarily a youth oriented brand, with CVC openly stated they want no part of, so why hang around?

 

A lot of you are totally missing the plot. It's not that RBR are losing, it's that competition is effectively banned, and that's what has all of RBR's brass upset with the sport.

The first point is valid, I think. The second point is not, because they are only complaining about lack of competition when they are losing. The same crap as certain other teams have spouted when they are losing and cannot see a way out. I don't remember Williams doing this in the past. 

[Knowlesy]

Farce ffs.

[Muzzyf1]

Im sure horner is beating his own drum but lets face it yesterday was as low as ive seen F1.
i was at the track and i will never go again.

I don't know about other parts of the world but if you hold a genral admission ticket you can forget to watcg anything meaningful of any racing.

Ww ended up watching it on a big screen away from visuals of any live track action.

wow the race was very dull even the two mercs were a no show .

Boring boring boring and I've been watching since 1987.

The highlight of the day was the speed comparison between a amg merc a v8 supercar and an old Minardi 2 seater with a v10.

The sound of the v10 was magical echoing all around albert park wow!

F1 needs to have a long look at itself.

[PassWind]

If Lewis Hamilton was driving a Redbull this thread would be so totally different, the end!

[fZero]

Red Bull have a point this time.

 

These new engine regulations are absolutely idiotic. They cost a fortune, endanger teams survival, and take away the development arms race which is essential to F1.

 

Yesterday was a big hit to the brands of RB, Renault, McLaren and Honda. I'm sure they're not impressed with yesterdays type of advertising.

[Afterburner]

redbull don't build engines. Like McLaren don't build engines.

The argument fails one basic test: Red Bull's advantage could always be eroded by a rival TEAM. Redbull is powerless to erode Merc's PU advantage. And further to that their supplier is limited from attempting to.

And this is the obvious reason I'll fail to acknowledge the puerile 'sore loser' accusations. Apples and oranges.

[rmpugh]

2020 is bs. Redbull racing is separate from redbull corporate which in itself is protected by many smaller distribution companies..

Easy to stop cutting the cheques, bankrupt the team(s) and move on just as so many billionaires have done in f1 and in many businesses in other industries. People just to get its easy to go bankrupt and then the contact is over.. Just like stupid cost cap ideas where teams would then just create sooo many companies to hide r&d activities and prob profitable r&d companies not unlike Williams r&d company arm which is separate from Williams racing for liability purposes, would not want to get sued at the r&d company an destroy the racing team as a result.

Bernie and company can not force anyone to lose money in f1... No matter the contract. If f1 reputation is ruined, and it very much is.. Redbull could counter sue the fia, Bernie and co. for a breach of contract as well, saying the fia had a negative impact on f1 and in return to rb racing due to stupid rules not letting them develop their engines to parity or address problems is damaging to the brand. They could loses of hundreds of millions of the books show it and put all the blame on f1...

Doesn't mean it's right or correct, but they'd need to hash it out in public court and no way would the fia want secret contract exposed as public record..

Now, I would love to see Mateschitz ruin Red Bull's reputation as the cool brand that participates in F1 by making RBR bankrupt, but that is unlikely. He would see massive losses. 

 

What is happening is RBR getting annoyed at not being #1. They can threaten anything they want, but still RBR will not quit F1. 

[khatibrifath]

No doubt mercedes have done an excellent job but this kind of dominance is not good for the sport....definitely tv ratings will go down.....i think formula e is lot better these days......atleast they have to allow development of engines throughout the season so that rivals can catch up else what is the point of having high budget when u cant develop ur car.......

[slideways]

I had hopes for this thread vs the other one after reading the first few posts... There are so many childish comments from people here. Sure hate on Horner or RBR but you can't see any problem with the sport? How long have you been watching exactly?

There are some core issues as a customer, cost - it's way too high, and should be capped. Electronic complexity. We went to open ECUs, but now the manufacturers are running their own software for ERS systems. Availability - teams like RBR are being blocked from decent engines. If a new customer team was to join tomorrow, their only option is a Renault, or if McLaren-Honda allow it, a Honda.

The works teams should not be able to pick and chose who gets an engine. Part of the deal they sign on to should be the requirement to supply identical engines to any customer who wants them, full stop.

[Frank Tuesday]

And this is the obvious reason I'll fail to acknowledge the puerile 'sore loser' accusations. Apples and oranges.

The ability to catch up hasn't really changed all that much.  With a lack of significant in season testing for many years, development of the cars is a crap shoot, that only the richest teams can participate it. 

 

Why were Red Bull not complaining then?  Because they were winning.   I never heard them say, "If we don't change the testing regulations to allow other teams to challenge us, we'll quit F1." Why are they complaining now?  Because they are losing.  Are they correct now?  Yes.  Were they wrong then? yes.  Are they hypocrites?  Without a doubt.  As a soft drink maker, their interest in racing is fleeting.  When it no longer provides marketing value, they're gone.  It is inevitable.  And it will likely coincide with the results of the team, not based on the rules.  

 

Do you honestly believe that if Renault had made the best engine, and Red Bull were still the dominant team that we'd be hearing any of this out of them?  

[LuckyStrike1]

I see quite a few here are practising this old trick, now also known as the Sauber-trick 

 

[Disgrace]

This just tells you why three-car teams are a non-starter. A threat might be less hollow if Red Bull were suddenly pulling six cars from the grid.

[Mart280]

The ability to catch up hasn't really changed all that much.  With a lack of significant in season testing for many years, development of the cars is a crap shoot, that only the richest teams can participate it. 
 
Why were Red Bull not complaining then?  Because they were winning.   I never heard them say, "If we don't change the testing regulations to allow other teams to challenge us, we'll quit F1." Why are they complaining now?  Because they are losing.  Are they correct now?  Yes.  Were they wrong then? yes.  Are they hypocrites?  Without a doubt.  As a soft drink maker, their interest in racing is fleeting.  When it no longer provides marketing value, they're gone.  It is inevitable.  And it will likely coincide with the results of the team, not based on the rules.  
 
Do you honestly believe that if Renault had made the best engine, and Red Bull were still the dominant team that we'd be hearing any of this out of them?

To answer the last bit, if RBR were still the dominant team Horner, with his smuggest of smug faces would say it's up to the other teams to catch us up, like he did a few years ago, no one really cares if they quit they are not an historic team, they got lucky and cheated for a few years, bye bye.

[andysaint]

Formula 1 would be stupid to dismiss what Red Bull say. They saved the Jaguar and Minardi teams, have brought through a lot of talent and opened up f1 to new markets. They were concerned about development when they were winning and f1 has already driven away one of the best designers ever on newey. If they wanted to leave before 2020 they could but this is not all red bull it is renaults screw ups too.

You lot seem keen to lose red bull. Who is going to bring 6 cars to replace them or buy them out or do you want a 12 car grid?

Edited by andysaint, 16 March 2015 - 07:57.