83 replies to this topic

[Sash1]

Renault should have stepped up this year, but the engine looks even slower and has worse reliability (even in a Torro Rosso the moment it was really pushed it blew up). They are way behind and I honestly do not see how they will be able to bridge the gap without massive investment in just the PU. And with these regs, it is now too late to pump 200 million extra in this PU. So basically Renault is F'd and so are their customers. Nobody can be happy with that. RBR have no choice but to get out of these contracts if there is no improvement soon.

 

And why Renault think they would be better off with their own team? They could not even get their engine to run without outside help last year. Now it is even worse. 

 

Audi? I doubt they want to get in at this stage. Maybe after 2020. They do not need a Honda kind of PR disaster. 

 

Frankly, after yesterday's race, why would any manufacturer want to step into this poor excuse of a racing series?

[Ferrari2183]

Renault should have stepped up this year, but the engine looks even slower and has worse reliability (even in a Torro Rosso the moment it was really pushed it blew up). They are way behind and I honestly do not see how they will be able to bridge the gap without massive investment in just the PU. And with these regs, it is now too late to pump 200 million extra in this PU. So basically Renault is F'd and so are their customers. Nobody can be happy with that. RBR have no choice but to get out of these contracts if there is no improvement soon.

 

And why Renault think they would be better off with their own team? They could not even get their engine to run without outside help last year. Now it is even worse. 

 

Audi? I doubt they want to get in at this stage. Maybe after 2020. They do not need a Honda kind of PR disaster. 

 

Frankly, after yesterday's race, why would any manufacturer want to step into this poor excuse of a racing series?

When Montezemolo said it was too soon for these power units everybody called him a dinosaur and Renault and Mercedes threatened to leave.

 

So this is what we're left with... A sport still trying to cut costs with the nice caveat of introducing power units that are ridiculously expensive and complicated.

Edited by Ferrari2183, 16 March 2015 - 10:22.

[Clrnc]

There are no exclusive deals. If somebody wants Hondas next year, they have to supply up to 3 or 4 teams.

I am pretty sure Mclaren signed up Honda on the condition that they are their works team. Any other team who wants Honda to supply them engines will be 2nd fiddle. 

[Ferrari2183]

This should be of interest

[Jvr]

Nothing is impossible in F1 so I would not rule a Ferrari engine deal out of the picture. For instance when they are now planning the new regulations for 2017, Ferrari could very well strike a deal with RBR that with an agreement in rules RBR gets in return Ferrari PU. Remember, both of them are having their eyes on the Merc and it's dominance...

[pdac]

Renault - they won't have any other manufacturers interested in supplying them

 

Edit: Actually, I suppose Ferrari might

Edited by pdac, 16 March 2015 - 12:10.

[narcotic]

Best scenario Redbull quit F1 and Renault dont have any team to supply with power units. Mateschitz can do same as Toyota

[Sash1]

I heard that Renault has admitted that their engine is underperforming.
http://en.espnf1.com...ory/194847.html
 

[Nicktendo86]

Has to be RB-Renault I think. It is too soon for a new manufacturer to enter and they would be slightly mad to do so at the minute. I think Mercedes are supplying the maximum amount of teams they can? Ferrari would not want to supply them, surely. Ditto with McLaren with Honda. I can only see Renault as the solution, they simply have to stop acting like children (both parities), get their heads down and make it work.

[noikeee]

I honestly have no idea, I don't think they'll manage to sell the team that soon, but none of the alternative options to Renault sound realistic, and the way they're slagging off Renault in public a contract extension doesn't sound very likely neither.

 

Maybe they'll ask special dispensation to Bernie to install a Cosworth DFV in the back of the car.

[JHSingo]

I heard that Renault has admitted that their engine is underperforming.
http://en.espnf1.com...ory/194847.html
 

 

That has to be a contender for 'understatement of the year' so far, I reckon.

[Jvr]

Has to be RB-Renault I think. It is too soon for a new manufacturer to enter and they would be slightly mad to do so at the minute. I think Mercedes are supplying the maximum amount of teams they can? Ferrari would not want to supply them, surely. Ditto with McLaren with Honda. I can only see Renault as the solution, they simply have to stop acting like children (both parities), get their heads down and make it work.

I still do not get this people writing the Ferrari option off. Yes, under Newey's dominance, the old Ferrari management LdM and all as well as Alonso there, they were arch rivals but that is water under the bridge now.

 

Sauber is deep in the trouble with vdG going after his seat and can they survive is genuinely a question mark.  I am sure that from business perspective, sharing the PU development cost, especially while looking for new development requirements towards 2017 makes a lot of business sense from Ferrari's point of view and as I already suggested, both Ferrari and RBR need to do something to break that Merc dominance so they might strike a deal on a common view on the regulation changes as well.

 

Past is past and I am sure RBR and Ferrari can see also benefits if working together in the future.

[tweiss]

He's just one phone-call away...

 

[pdac]

I honestly have no idea, I don't think they'll manage to sell the team that soon, but none of the alternative options to Renault sound realistic, and the way they're slagging off Renault in public a contract extension doesn't sound very likely neither.

 

Maybe they'll ask special dispensation to Bernie to install a Cosworth DFV in the back of the car.

 

The thing is that Red Bull want to win - nothing else. There is no other engine deal out there that will allow them to win. If they want to achieve their goal, their only option is to bend over backwards to help Renault make their engine the best. It might be an impossible job, but they have no other option.

[pdac]

I still do not get this people writing the Ferrari option off. Yes, under Newey's dominance, the old Ferrari management LdM and all as well as Alonso there, they were arch rivals but that is water under the bridge now.

 

Sauber is deep in the trouble with vdG going after his seat and can they survive is genuinely a question mark.  I am sure that from business perspective, sharing the PU development cost, especially while looking for new development requirements towards 2017 makes a lot of business sense from Ferrari's point of view and as I already suggested, both Ferrari and RBR need to do something to break that Merc dominance so they might strike a deal on a common view on the regulation changes as well.

 

Past is past and I am sure RBR and Ferrari can see also benefits if working together in the future.

 

I don't write it off, but accepting it is to accept that they will be, at best, the thrid team - Mercedes are going to be tough for Ferrari to top and Ferrari aren't about to let a customer team beat them. If they want to be better than thrid (and I think they do), Renault is their only choice.

[Jvr]

The thing is that Red Bull want to win - nothing else. There is no other engine deal out there that will allow them to win. If they want to achieve their goal, their only option is to bend over backwards to help Renault make their engine the best. It might be an impossible job, but they have no other option.

Ok, this is getting really far fetching but I just bounce it anyway. Adam Cooper is reporting that Mateschitz is elaborating ways to exit, hence the VAC discussion. Now on another hand Elkann and Marchionne have plans also to raise the profile of Alfa Romeo / Maserati so why not sell Ferrari engines in the beginning while working for a deal to create Alfa or Maserati F1 team from RBR?

 

I am not saying by no means this is happening, I just want to point out that anything is possible, do not write the options off prematurely.

 

 

...running for the coat...

Edited by Jvr, 16 March 2015 - 13:22.

[Ferrari2183]

I heard that Renault has admitted that their engine is underperforming.
http://en.espnf1.com...ory/194847.html
 

Yeah, Renault is in quite a pickle... They know that their issues aren't easy to solve either.

 

Based on this I think it's going to be a very, very tough year for both Renault and Honda with no guarantee that things will be better relative to the competition in the future if the regulations remain the same.

 

The homologation on these PU's need to be rescinded ASAP.

[Ferrari2183]

Ok, this is getting really far fetching but I just bounce it anyway. Adam Cooper is reporting that Mateschitz is elaborating ways to exit, hence the VAC discussion. Now on another hand Elkann and Marchionne have plans also to raise the profile of Alfa Romeo / Maserati so why not sell Ferrari engines in the beginning while working for a deal to create Alfa or Maserati F1 team from RBR?

 

I am not saying by no means this is happening, I just want to point out that anything is possible, do not write the options off prematurely.

 

 

...running for the coat...

Why would FIAT want 2 marquee names in F1?

 

As far as RBR and Ferrari striking a deal to break Mercedes dominance. Not a chance... Ferrari will rather go at it alone.

[Jvr]

Why would FIAT want 2 marquee names in F1?

 

As far as RBR and Ferrari striking a deal to break Mercedes dominance. Not a chance... Ferrari will rather go at it alone.

Probably with the current FOM and CA in place they would not, you are very right. On another hand, Ferrari is planned to be floated through IPO and there are different sides of Agnelli family that might want to see one F1 team in the control of FCA after the IPO...

 

Perhaps my point is that we do not know what is moving under the surface, the unholy alliance with RBR and Ferrari is therefore in my cards a possibility.

[TheSnowman]

Don't forget that Ferrari have supplied Red Bull before back in 2006, though that seems like a lifetime ago now considering RBR success since then.

 

There is one company that hasn't been mentioned yet and I'm a bit surprised. They've been in Formula One relatively recently and have a great history in making turbo engines in F1. BMW.

Edited by TheSnowman, 16 March 2015 - 17:03.

[goingthedistance]

Red Bull have a contract with Renault that runs through to the end of next year, so despite their ineptitude I suspect RBR will have to see that out. The lead time is so long on sorting out an alternative anyway that nothing much else makes sense. The exception to that might be the development of their own engine in concert with Ilmor using the AVL facilities. It's possible Red Bull have been quietly working on that option since early last year, in which case they may switch to making their own PU next year. 

 

Personally I'd love to see them pair with either Audi or BMW, even though this would be a long term project. 

[frosty125]

I really doubt it will be Honda especially after how Red Bull are behaving towards Renault the word gaiatsu comes to mind. 

[Geizterfahrer]

Found an interesting and relevant piece of an interview with Abiteboul on a german website. I didn't find the interview on an English speaking website, so here's a rough translation from a non-native speaker:

Question: "Cyril, you must be disappointed with your performance and progress compared to the previous year, right?"

Cyril Abiteboul: "Actually, no. There is progress. Our program actually makes progress. The problem is that we got pushed into a very aggressive development program at a late stage in winter. Essentially we bypassed and shortened some important development steps. And then you do some things on the dyno that you actually should do on the track, which isn't our normal proceeding. This is a good learning process for everyone who wanted to proceeed that way."

Source in German

 

If true, this could mean that this disaster is as much Red Bull's fault (who else would be able to push Renault into anything they didn't want to do?) as it is Renault's. Sounds a lot like Red Bull and Renault couldn't agree on how to develop the engine. And instead of finding a good solution they agreed on doing stuff you shouldn't do normally   So... Good luck for anyone who's wanting to work together with Red Bull. They tell you how to do your job and blame you if it didn't work.

 

My vote goes to "Other" -> Red Bull Flinstone

[goingthedistance]

Given they've used less tokens than all of their rivals, it can't have been that aggressive a push. 

[Sash1]

 

Found an interesting and relevant piece of an interview with Abiteboul on a german website. I didn't find the interview on an English speaking website, so here's a rough translation from a non-native speaker:

 

Source in German

 

If true, this could mean that this disaster is as much Red Bull's fault (who else would be able to push Renault into anything they didn't want to do?) as it is Renault's. Sounds a lot like Red Bull and Renault couldn't agree on how to develop the engine. And instead of finding a good solution they agreed on doing stuff you shouldn't do normally   So... Good luck for anyone who's wanting to work together with Red Bull. They tell you how to do your job and blame you if it didn't work.

 

My vote goes to "Other" -> Red Bull Flinstone

 

 

Renault has to keep in mind that in F1, track time is limited with the limited test days. So you have to do stuff on the dyno or Renault should fit the engine in an old Renault Espace like they once did with the '90s engine (but at that time just for fun) and run that car around Mangy Course for 1000 laps. They develop too slow and want to use track time that isn't there. RBR brought in a non Frenchie with Illien and based on my experiences with French managers in mixed companies, French cannot get over their own ego to work with or listen to non French people. It leads to conflict and stagnation. I'd go as far that they would rather sabotage than work together. Renault and much of France has a culture problem in their businesses. That's why Germany is economically successful and France is not.

[v@sh]

 

Found an interesting and relevant piece of an interview with Abiteboul on a german website. I didn't find the interview on an English speaking website, so here's a rough translation from a non-native speaker:

 

Source in German

 

If true, this could mean that this disaster is as much Red Bull's fault (who else would be able to push Renault into anything they didn't want to do?) as it is Renault's. Sounds a lot like Red Bull and Renault couldn't agree on how to develop the engine. And instead of finding a good solution they agreed on doing stuff you shouldn't do normally   So... Good luck for anyone who's wanting to work together with Red Bull. They tell you how to do your job and blame you if it didn't work.

 

My vote goes to "Other" -> Red Bull Flinstone

 

 

The thing is perspective, Renault were hoping to halve the deficit to the 2014 Mercedes power unit then you can understand Red Bull's point of view. What is the point in aiming for 35 additional hp for 2015 when Mercedes will improve by another 50-60? You will be even further behind. How on earth are you going to catch up if you have such conservative targets vs. your opposition? You are going to be worse off the following year so why not develop aggressively to catch up then get the reliability right rather than have conservative targets.

 

Renault's strategy never made sense from a competition perspective. It is the same concept in regards to chassis development, every team would rather a fast car at the front that breaks down rather than a slow car that finishes all the time. You can always fix a broken car but you cannot make a car that is fundamentally slow fast.

 

Right now, Renault have neither performance or reliability.

Edited by v@sh, 17 March 2015 - 09:38.

[noikeee]

Renault has to keep in mind that in F1, track time is limited with the limited test days. So you have to do stuff on the dyno or Renault should fit the engine in an old Renault Espace like they once did with the '90s engine (but at that time just for fun) and run that car around Mangy Course for 1000 laps. They develop too slow and want to use track time that isn't there. RBR brought in a non Frenchie with Illien and based on my experiences with French managers in mixed companies, French cannot get over their own ego to work with or listen to non French people. It leads to conflict and stagnation. I'd go as far that they would rather sabotage than work together. Renault and much of France has a culture problem in their businesses. That's why Germany is economically successful and France is not.

Well done on a successfully borderline ofensive post.

[GoGro]

Renault has to keep in mind that in F1, track time is limited with the limited test days. So you have to do stuff on the dyno or Renault should fit the engine in an old Renault Espace like they once did with the '90s engine (but at that time just for fun) and run that car around Mangy Course for 1000 laps. They develop too slow and want to use track time that isn't there. RBR brought in a non Frenchie with Illien and based on my experiences with French managers in mixed companies, French cannot get over their own ego to work with or listen to non French people. It leads to conflict and stagnation. I'd go as far that they would rather sabotage than work together. Renault and much of France has a culture problem in their businesses. That's why Germany is economically successful and France is not.

 

 

  Germans giving lessons all over again.

 

The problem between Renault and RB is more a company culture issue between the young company that is pushing an "old" supplier with methods and procedures that it used for decades and it does want to change.  RB should soften a bit their position because one thing is sure with Renault: they know how to build engines. They won before RB, they won with RB and they will win after RB. So no need for Horner to push up thing. Building an engine is a complicated industrial process that does not require haste.

[Geizterfahrer]

Given they've used less tokens than all of their rivals, it can't have been that aggressive a push. 

You don't know what they have developed but not implemented yet. The whole thing about saving tokens is about developing things longer, not faster. Additionally, we just saw a limited engine in AUS, because a completely unlocked engine wouldn't have survived the race (I guess that's how Ricciardos first engine died after 50km).

 

The thing is perspective, Renault were hoping to halve the deficit to the 2014 Mercedes power unit then you can understand Red Bull's point of view. What is the point in aiming for 35 additional hp for 2015 when Mercedes will improve by another 50-60? You will be even further behind. How on earth are you going to catch up if you have such conservative targets vs. your opposition? You are going to be worse off the following year so why not develop aggressively to catch up then get the reliability right rather than have conservative targets.

 

Renault's strategy never made sense from a competition perspective. It is the same concept in regards to chassis development, every team would rather a fast car at the front that breaks down rather than a slow car that finishes all the time. You can always fix a broken car but you cannot make a car that is fundamentally slow fast.

 

Right now, Renault have neither performance or reliability.

I don't think that Renault aimed for an additional 35 HP and stopped development when they reached it  But that's not what my posting was about. I just found Abiteboul's words worth mentioning. They had their program running. Then in the middle of this running program, someone came and told them to do things in a different way. They said "It won't work that way", but nevertheless changed their running program. Now, Red Bull has to limit the engine to a level similar of late last years engine to get a reliability that is worse than early last years engine. And of course they blame Renault of havin done a bad job.

 

I don't say Renault would have done a better job if Red Bull wouldn't have pushed them into doing things differently. I'm just saying that Red Bull can't put all the blame on Renault. That's if it is true that Renault told them that their ideas on how to develop the engine won't work!

[v@sh]

I don't think that Renault aimed for an additional 35 HP and stopped development when they reached it  But that's not what my posting was about. I just found Abiteboul's words worth mentioning. They had their program running. Then in the middle of this running program, someone came and told them to do things in a different way. They said "It won't work that way", but nevertheless changed their running program. Now, Red Bull has to limit the engine to a level similar of late last years engine to get a reliability that is worse than early last years engine. And of course they blame Renault of havin done a bad job.

 

I don't say Renault would have done a better job if Red Bull wouldn't have pushed them into doing things differently. I'm just saying that Red Bull can't put all the blame on Renault. That's if it is true that Renault told them that their ideas on how to develop the engine won't work!

 

I don't think they did either but that's a pretty poor target if you ask me if they hoped to get an increase of 35 hp by the start of Melbourne and continue developing from there. Can also understand it from Renault's perspective in that someone comes in and tells you how you should develop the engine but given how was last year was you can also understand Red Bull's point of view. There is not enough information and details to get the full context of what has happened between the two.

 

The thing with Abiteboul's words is that it contradicts with Newey's adjacent interview with the Guardian in that Renault wouldn't engage with them. So who to believe? I mean if Renault are getting smashed in the press all weekend by Red Bull, then why not come out with this earlier? If Renault say that RBRs ideas on how the develop engine won't work and they've ignored Red Bull, then what have Renault come up with that has actually made it better? Cos clearly they don't have any other better ideas on improving the PU. Isn't it good sometimes to also get a different perspective on things? If it is different and ends up being a better result, how is this not good? If they were to become the works team, how can it become a works team if RB's engagement and ideas are ignored? Don't forget RB did send software developers to help out Renault last year as well as a division to help once the works partnership was known last year so it isn't like RB has come in and dictated how everything should be run in Renault which many people tend to forget.

 

Edit: I don't disagree that Red Bull can put all the blame on Renault, but IMO Renault's strategy to become competitive has never made sense to me and forced RBR to act. RBR though did not help last year with the public condemnation of Renault and wouldn't have helped their "works" partnership coming into this year.

Edited by v@sh, 17 March 2015 - 10:32.

[Geizterfahrer]

I don't think they did either but that's a pretty poor target if you ask me if they hoped to get an increase of 35 hp by the start of Melbourne and continue developing from there. Can also understand it from Renault's perspective in that someone comes in and tells you how you should develop the engine but given how was last year was you can also understand Red Bull's point of view. There is not enough information and details to get the full context of what has happened between the two.

Of course I can understand Red Bull too. Last year's engine was useless compared to the Mercedes (Ferrari was equally bad, but that's no excuse). I completely agree that they had to find a way to work together.

 

 

The thing with Abiteboul's words is that it contradicts with Newey's adjacent interview with the Guardian in that Renault wouldn't engage with them. So who to believe? I mean if Renault are getting smashed in the press all weekend by Red Bull, then why not come out with this earlier?

What I say now is heavily biased, since I ... well... "don't like" Red Bull that much 

 

Red Bull isn't exactly known for being objective and honest when it comes to problems with their car. Just one example: Remember the problems they had with the fuel flow sensor last year? According to Red Bull the sensors were utter crap and not apt for F1 use. We later learned that Red Bull modified the sensors before they put them in the car. Once the FIA banned modifications, the sensors did their job. There are more examples, like the lack of power of the Renault V8 or the "life threatening" tyre wear of the Pirellis (when Red Bull and other teams started tyre swapping and played with air pressure and camber), but I don't want to derail the thread with a "Red Bull is evil" pamphlet. Let's just say I tend to believe Renault for one or the other reason.

 

Isn't it good sometimes to also get a different perspective on things? If it is different and ends up being a better result, how is this not good? If they were to become the works team, how can it become a works team if RB's engagement and ideas are ignored? Don't forget RB did send software developers to help out Renault last year as well as a division to help once the works partnership was known last year so it isn't like RB has come in and dictated how everything should be run in Renault which many people tend to forget.

As I said above: I agree, they should have found a way to work together. Mercedes managed to get their engine and chassis division to work together and that's why they are at the top now. Ferrari didn't manage this last season, so they weren't competitive. They swapped a lot of their staff and did a better job this year. Now look where they are this season! That's exactly where Red Bull and Renault could be too, if they had managed to work together.

 

Again, I don't blame Red Bull. I just think Abiteboul's words could be an indicator that it's not all Renault's fault.

[lustigson]

If Red Bull were working on a program to have their own-branded engine, they should've bought Cosworth. 

[Melbourne Park]

If Red Bull were working on a program to have their own-branded engine, they should've bought Cosworth. 

 

Hmm ... if that were the case, then go to Hyundai, and get them to finance it. And Hyundai might get some high tech exposure. However ... Hyundai shares are worth 25% less than last years ... and their second biggest market is the USA, where F1 is not much publicised. I just can't think of anybody else ... 

 

If Renault are serious about buying a team - then RBR cannot work to fix the problem, because Renault will know all their body details. If the relationship is fractured, then RBR is in a position similar to what Williams were when BMW decided to quit Williams. Williams went backwards ... and BMW failed badly when they tried to go it alone. 

 

It doesn't make sense for Renault to buy a team ... their  big issue is their failed motor. A new team is not going to fix that. 

 

And if Renault want to improve their marketing  impact - then put the Renault label on the RBR, rather than the Nissan/Infiniti label. That Renault complain about lack of marketing impact is ridiculous - they should have Renault on the RBR.  Heck - put the drivers in yellow uniforms too ...

 

but it seems Renault don't have the capability ... and homologation means it will stay that way. So ... RBR needs another motor or a major rule change.

Edited by Melbourne Park, 17 March 2015 - 12:59.

[V8 Fireworks]

Yes a larger budget from Renault, and naming sponsor of RBR (yellow colours all over the RBR) would be a good start.