69 replies to this topic

[MatParker116]

http://adamcooperf1....waits-in-wings/

 

 

 

Realistically the only potential buyer is a car manufacturer, and that means VW/Audi. Sources suggest that the company’s consultant Stefano Domenicali has backed a plan to take over Milton Keynes and turn it into a works team – and not simply join as a partner. However Ferdinand Piech, the man who really matters, continues to procrastinate about whether or not he wants Audi to commit to such a project.

 

 

 

 

 

Let's say this happens what would then be Audi-Red Bull F1 have to do to an LMP engine in order to make it F1 compliant or more likely would they stick with Renault for another year and badge them as Audi?

[v@sh]

Unlikely, Audi would have already needed to start building a PU already (look at the long lead time Honda required and how that has ended up) + the VW Group owner dislikes Bernie and doesn't want to get involved in F1 while he is running it. I think this has already been mentioned in other threads so not sure if it is needed for a new thread to be created?

 

Plus given the 'show' F1 put on Sunday, does it even look remotely interesting to join the series from a manufacturer's point of view?

[totgate]

Will not happen!!! Nobody in their right minds will join F1 as it is. A better and faster way to lose money and credibility is not in existence for the moment.

[KTownDevil]

Impossible. Piech won't enter F1 under Ecclestone. Maybe when he's gone... 

 

however, is that Volkswagen Group overlord Ferdinand Piëch doesn't like F1 boss Bernie Ecclestone on a personal or professional level, so one of them would need to leave his position before Audi could say yes, feasibility be damned. Since we're talking about two men who define professional longevity, that day might not come soon.

 

http://www.autoblog....cclestone-gone/

Edited by KTownDevil, 16 March 2015 - 08:25.

[Disgrace]

The McLaren-Honda announcement was made in May 2013. Just under two years later, they look utterly unprepared. VW Group will play no part in F1 under the current regulatory guise. Surely WEC is better value in terms of demonstrating your technical prowess, hence the fact they have two brands in LMP1.

[SenorSjon]

Not going to happen in the current ruleset. As a team you get raped by FOM and FIA.

[MatParker116]

The McLaren-Honda announcement was made in May 2013. Just under two years later, they look utterly unprepared. VW Group will play no part in F1 under the current regulatory guise. Surely WEC is better value in terms of demonstrating your technical prowess, hence the fact they have two brands in LMP1.

 

There's a vast yawning chasm between F1 and WEC when it comes to brand exposure though:

http://www.isportcon...port&Itemid=217

 

While the global advertising value of the Mercedes F1 team’s TV appearances during 2014 is identified to have been worth US$2.8 billion, the VW Group and its sports and touring car operations are thought to be worth only about US$30m.

Then there is the value that F1’s popularity brings for sponsors – Mercedes reportedly generated US$1.5 billion in advertising value for its sponsors in 2014 (US$450m for Petronas and US$400m for Daimler).

And as the team’s head of communications, Bradley Lord, has pointed-out: “Mercedes-Benz sells 93% of its passenger cars in countries which hold F1 races.”

 

[SilentKiller]

Adam Cooper @adamcooperF1  ·  2m 2 minutes ago

Some people missing point on @redbullracing story. This is not about empty threats, or Marko and Horner lobbying the FIA (cont.)

 

Adam Cooper @adamcooperF1  ·  3m 3 minutes ago

(cont.) Dietrich Mateschitz has had enough and spent enough, and he wants to find a way out and sell up. End of.

 

Adam Cooper @adamcooperF1  ·  52s 52 seconds ago

It won't happen overnight, but that's where Mateschitz is heading, and of course Bernie is well and truly in the loop on it

Edited by SilentKiller, 16 March 2015 - 08:21.

[Henri Greuter]

http://adamcooperf1....waits-in-wings/

 

 

 

 

Let's say this happens what would then be Audi-Red Bull F1 have to do to an LMP engine in order to make it F1 compliant or more likely would they stick with Renault for another year and badge them as Audi?

 

All of the currently used LMP1 engines are larger in capacity than 1.6 liters, the maximum limit for F1 engines. The Audi LMP1 engine is a V6, yet a diesel of about twice the capacity.

Modifying and Rebadging the Porsche V4 is no ption: too large in capacity and two cylinders short.

 

If Audi/VW wants to do F1 they have to start all over anew with an entirely different engine than anything they have available now.. Maybe some of the hybrid engineering learned by either Porsche or Audi could be used but I doubt it.

It simply makes no sence to even believe that Audi could join F1, based on what they have learned and have available in LMP1. Two entirely different worlds.

 

I hope VW/Audi will be clever enought to stay out of F1 nad don't do a thing to keep Ecclestone & ally's "Titanic" afloat and if it comes to beat Mercedes in combat, they will do so in DTM instead. In a series where Mercedes doesn't benefit from protection of their advantage because of the rules as they are.

 

 

Henri

Edited by Henri Greuter, 16 March 2015 - 08:24.

[FPV GTHO]

I don't think adapting the Porsche LMP drivetrain would be that hard. Its a 2L 90 degree V4. Add 2 cylinders and cut the stroke in half almost with a new block casting and go from there. It might seem like ive simplified it massively, but didn't the Porsche drivetrain originate from an F1 engine concept? As for their ERS, theyre already basically running an F1 style system with the axle motor/generator and the exhaust motor/generator.

[Murl]

Impossible. Piech won't enter F1 under Ecclestone. Maybe when he's gone... 

 

 

 

 

http://www.autoblog....cclestone-gone/

 

 

Is that perhaps also because of the corruption that envelops Bernie where ever he goes?

German companies are averse to white collar criminals these days because of Siemens?

[registered]

Not again...
We had this rumour already this year and like every year VW denied....

[noikeee]

I'm not sure about VAG as buyers, but everything else in that article makes perfect sense. Red Bull's relationship with Renault is going to hell, Dieter's patience with F1 must be very short as he has accomplished everything and got more than brilliant publicity for his product, I've no doubt he'd listen to offers. But I think he might have to wait a year or two for the general economic and competitive situation to stabilize in F1 (or, alternatively, implode completely), before he finds any interested buyers.

 

What I don't get is why wouldn't Renault actually buy the Milton Keynes based main Red Bull team. Renault appear to want a team back, Red Bull appears to want to sell and there's almost nobody out there that could afford it, the team's already got Renault engines? Sure their relationship is crap which isn't the greatest scenario ever for such a takeover to happen, but it's convenient for everyone?

[Jamiednm]

I want to see Audi in F1, also BMW and Toyota. Alongside Mercedes, Ferrari, Honda and Renault - wow, what a prospect! But I'd rather see Bernie and CVC go, to be replaced by a rights owner that wants to build the sport rather than milk it dry. Ironically, I think it will probably take the departure of Bernie for new OEMs to enter F1.

[Ferrari_F1_fan_2001]

Would be great if VAG fronted it as Lamborghini or Porsche instead of Audi. Audi are already market leaders and at the forefront of WEC racing. Entering F1 does not sound like a brilliant plan for them.

[aramos]

 

Adam Cooper @adamcooperF1  ·  2m 2 minutes ago

Some people missing point on @redbullracing story. This is not about empty threats, or Marko and Horner lobbying the FIA (cont.)

 

Adam Cooper @adamcooperF1  ·  3m 3 minutes ago

(cont.) Dietrich Mateschitz has had enough and spent enough, and he wants to find a way out and sell up. End of.

 

Adam Cooper @adamcooperF1  ·  52s 52 seconds ago

It won't happen overnight, but that's where Mateschitz is heading, and of course Bernie is well and truly in the loop on it

 

 

Thats worrying for F1. Not that he wants out if their results don't improve, but he wants out all together.

 

Red Bull currently run 4 cars on our ever shrinking grid and more importantly fill all 4 of them with drivers picked on talent, not backing. Red Bull in many ways is one of the few sanctuarys for drivers without large amounts of backing.

Edited by aramos, 16 March 2015 - 11:13.

[aramos]

Would be great if VAG fronted it as Lamborghini or Porsche instead of Audi. Audi are already market leaders and at the forefront of WEC racing. Entering F1 does not sound like a brilliant plan for them.

 

There is little point running it as a super limited manufacturer like Lamborghini. Porsche I can understand, as they are substantially diversifying their range and the type of buyer who is interested in F1 is very likely to be interested in Porsche.

[Rasputin]

There is little doubt that Mateschitz has had it with F1, now that he cannot celebrate a win every fortnight, and would probably hand over the front door keys to anyone who would shoulder the running costs.

 

The only problem is, and much to Didi's dismay, Formula 1 just doesn't swing that much weight on the market anymore, why in the world would Audi invest 300+ MEUR to be beaten by Mercedes anyway?

[SealTheDiffuser]

Audi is bland as it gets...

They should come as VW or Lamborghini

but I doubt they will ever come

[FullThrottleF1]

Would anyone buy RB if they sold the team?

[Sin]

I rather want Porsche to take it ... they have a test track right in my city ;) maybe I would finally get to see an F1 driver then...

[SanDiegoGo]

Toro Rosso = Renault F1.

 

Red Bull = VW/Audi F1.

 

i imagine dieter wants to off load as he's had his fun and the exposure he wanted for his foul beverage. renault want their own team and the VW rumours just will not die. so, there you have it.

[FullThrottleF1]

Toro Rosso = Renault F1.

 

Red Bull = VW/Audi F1.

 

i imagine dieter wants to off load as he's had his fun and the exposure he wanted for his foul beverage. renault want their own team and the VW rumours just will not die. so, there you have it.

 

How would it work. It will take a few years for Audi to develop the engine. So would they still run under the RD banner still using Renault engines but with the team being owned by Audi?

[SanDiegoGo]

How would it work. It will take a few years for Audi to develop the engine. So would they still run under the RD banner still using Renault engines but with the team being owned by Audi?

 

well, audi will have a very good idea about hybrid engines from the WEC program and they may have been developing an F1 power unit for years for all we know. they can certainly afford that type of R&D. so, maybe 2017 purchase of red bull. renault could buy out toro rosso today and dieter would be fine with that i imagine.

[ardbeg]

Audi is bland as it gets...

They should come as VW or Lamborghini

but I doubt they will ever come

That would be a good reason, wouldn't it?

[Clrnc]

How is Audi bland? 

[pdac]

Rumour: Audi interested in buying RBR

[johnmhinds]

Would anyone buy RB if they sold the team?

 

It probably wouldn't be a sale as such, giving the team away to Renault or anyone else for free would save Red Bull a billion dollars+ that they would have had to spend competing from 2016-2020.

Edited by johnmhinds, 16 March 2015 - 12:12.

[SenorSjon]

I rather want Porsche to take it ... they have a test track right in my city ;) maybe I would finally get to see an F1 driver then...

 

They should lift the testban first or you will never see a car test there.

[ardbeg]

I rather want Porsche to take it ... they have a test track right in my city ;) maybe I would finally get to see an F1 driver then...

Porsche would have little to gain. Think about it - before F1 Mercedes was seen as the luxury cruiser where the owner more often than not was in the back seat. F1 has changed their image considerably. Porsche has a perfect image already so they would only risk getting dirt on it.

[Talisman]

What I don't get is why wouldn't Renault actually buy the Milton Keynes based main Red Bull team. Renault appear to want a team back, Red Bull appears to want to sell and there's almost nobody out there that could afford it, the team's already got Renault engines? Sure their relationship is crap which isn't the greatest scenario ever for such a takeover to happen, but it's convenient for everyone?

 

I think its far more likely that RBR is sold to Renault too.

 

Looking at Honda a 2015 entry was probably the last possible point a manufacturer could get into F1 and hope to eventually gain parity with Merc/Renault/Ferrari under the current regulations.  Watching Honda struggle at the moment probably isn't the most conducive sight for a company thinking about entering F1 because the industry knows how much money and resources Honda are willing to throw at F1.  Most other companies will view F1 in cold hard terms regarding the cost of investment vs return in terms of publicity and the maths simply won't add up.

 

Add to that the feud between Piech and Ecclestone, I think the word 'dislike' was used but apparently that would be the understatement of the year.  The two can't stand each other.  I don't see VAG touching F1 at all until either or both are dead, mind you that might not be too far in the future.

VAG are very happy in cheaper earthier forms of motorsport anyway like WEC and WRC.  The exposure might not be great but the regulations are far more manufacturer friendly.

[Spillage]

A story which combines two stories we seem to get every year. Why not?

[William Hunt]

Renault is more likely to buy Toro Rosso as Audi buying Red Bull

[Fastcake]

There's been enough credible stories about VW over the past few months that leads me to believe someone inside the group is interested in entering F1. That doesn't mean it's going to happen, not with Piech still in charge, but I don't think it should be dismissed out of hand anymore.

I'm not surprised Dietrich Mateschitz is looking at the exit. Red Bull have been funding two teams for 10 years now, and after four double championships, is it still worth the considerable amount of money trying for a fifth? They could still stay involved with drivers and sponsorship, but I'd been surprised if both teams are still here by 2020.

[ensign14]

Audi is bland as it gets...

They should come as VW or Lamborghini

but I doubt they will ever come

 

Volkswagen Automotive Group - International & North America

[Owen]

Impossible. Piech won't enter F1 under Ecclestone. Maybe when he's gone... 

 

 

 

 

http://www.autoblog....cclestone-gone/

Thinking he may have a good point...

[Paco]

I don't get why any manufacturer would want to join f1 right now in the era of lack of development. Unless Audi come as a full works team with an engine to boot, they will never win... Seems ludicrous to come in with an engine at this point consider how loathed the current power units are why would anyone want to make one from scratch...

From a advertising side and brand building, f1 is at a all time low for probably the last 25 years...
The costs of competing are astronomical.

Audi needs to build is luxury division nots it's performance division.. Just don't see how this makes any sense at all.. And prob would only far more more more harm.

[EthanM]

I don't get why any manufacturer would want to join f1 right now in the era of lack of development. Unless Audi come as a full works team with an engine to boot, they will never win... Seems ludicrous to come in with an engine at this point consider how loathed the current power units are why would anyone want to make one from scratch...

From a advertising side and brand building, f1 is at a all time low for probably the last 25 years...
The costs of competing are astronomical.

Audi needs to build is luxury division nots it's performance division.. Just don't see how this makes any sense at all.. And prob would only far more more more harm.

 

 

An alternative question is why a Mercedes competitor wouldn't want to try and curb Merc's marketing dominance. Audi as a group spend a lot of money on WEC. Is the publicity they get from it in any way comparable in the mainstream media to what Merc gets for F1?

[johnmhinds]

An alternative question is why a Mercedes competitor wouldn't want to try and curb Merc's marketing dominance. Audi as a group spend a lot of money on WEC. Is the publicity they get from it in any way comparable in the mainstream media to what Merc gets for F1?

Not really a fair comparison given the wildly different budgets for both series.

Audi gets its fair amount of coverage for the comparatively small investment they've put into WEC.

I doubt it would make much financial sense for them to up their racing budget by 4x to compete in F1 instead of WEC anyway, if it did they would have entered F1 over a decade ago.

[EthanM]

Not really a fair comparison given the wildly different budgets for both series.

Audi gets its fair amount of coverage for the comparatively small investment they've put into WEC.

I doubt it would make much financial sense for them to up their racing budget by 4x to compete in F1 instead of WEC anyway, if it did they would have entered F1 over a decade ago.

 

 

trust me, in big corporations stuff like that often boils down to who's selling the idea. And keep in mind Mercedes is Audi's primary competitor, I 'm sure they didn't care when McLaren/Ferrari/Red Bull where dominating the F1 headlines, now Mercedes do I am sure they care.

[SenorSjon]

But those headlines aren't very positive lately. It is more about Sauber vs VDG, Manor having no software and only 15 cars started the race. Oh, and Mercedes won while doing groceries.

[SealTheDiffuser]

Volkswagen Automotive Group - International & North America

 

?

 

mabye this is what I meant with they.... Volkswagen Group

[MikeV1987]

It is just a matter of time...I would love to see Audi in F1, it makes the most sense out of the entire VW group.

Edited by MikeV1987, 16 March 2015 - 15:22.

[BRG]

Would anyone buy RB if they sold the team?

Hasn't Toro Rosso been up for sale for the last 3 or 4 years?  And no takers so far.

[FullThrottleF1]

Hasn't Toro Rosso been up for sale for the last 3 or 4 years?  And no takers so far.

Been for sale since RB bought it in '05! 

[krobinson]

Impossible. Piech won't enter F1 under Ecclestone. Maybe when he's gone... 

 

 

 

 

http://www.autoblog....cclestone-gone/

 

Well, it only points to F1 needing for Ecclestone to disappear from F1.

[WhiteSGPlayer]

Just need the Audi PR Guy to copy + paste the denial that they make every year:

 

http://www.autocar.c...es-out-f1-entry    - 2010

 

http://www.espn.co.u...tory/49493.html                      - 2011

 

(Nothing i can find in 2012)

 

http://www.grandprix...-manufacturers/        -2013

 

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/116612                      -2014

Edited by WhiteSGPlayer, 16 March 2015 - 15:42.

[William Hunt]

Even if they don't enter F1 for the next decade VAG is getting great publicity from the rumour that they might enter alone.

[Rob]

If they're going to enter F1 to fight Mercedes-Benz, then surely it has to be under the Auto Union name? Tradition dictates...

 

[bass6]

Volkswagen Automotive Group - International & North America

Porsche Engineering - Nothing Is Settled